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Old 02-27-2013, 01:27 PM    (permalink
Saints-Tigers
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Complete WR who has a problem hanging on to the damn ball. He might be "complete", but he doesn't do anything particularly better than Moss, except work out.
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fwiw, i amz deunks ofs myt ass. ilo vez drinmoinz befotre i post. wha t a hreat ideas.z.
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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Complete WR who has a problem hanging on to the damn ball. He might be "complete", but he doesn't do anything particularly better than Moss, except work out.
Blocking too : )
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Old 02-27-2013, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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people like to think moss was only a deep threat because he was such an amazing one...but when he wasnt on oakland the man could run any route and catch any ball
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
'Most complete receiver' means Randy Moss did EVERYTHING well a WR is expected to do on a football field.
That means catching the football, route running, elusiveness/run after the catch, beating double teams, red zone/3rd down efficiency and blocking.

Randy Moss is the greatest deep threat to ever play the game because of his speed and length, but he wasn't the most complete WR to ever play.
So who was more complete than Moss when he played?

Terrell Owens was a worse route runner, worse over the middle, and a far worse blocker.

Marvin Harrison couldn't/wouldn't run after the catch, wasn't a huge deep threat, wasn't as good a blocker.

Isaac Bruce couldn't/wouldn't run after the catch, wasn't a huge deep threat, wasn't as good a blocker.

Torry Holt had nothing going for him other than great hands and was a product of a system. Horrible non-runner after the catch, not a deep threat, not a great route runner.


Who the heck from Moss's era was more complete than him?

As for, "greatest deep threat ever"...that's a big claim to make, especially about a guy whose career average is 15.6 yards/catch and there were receivers in the past who really did make their living almost exclusively off the deep ball.

Ever heard of Wesley Walker? Flipper Anderson?

Football didn't start in 1990.

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You can't be considered 'complete' if you admit to taking plays off, or if we can SEE you take plays off if you feel the ball isn't coming to you.

Cornerbacks and safeties must have loved to see Moss jog off the LOS after the snap because they knew the could roll coverage off him.

The fact that Moss could half-ass it for much of his career and produce at the level he did is a testament to his greatness, but he wasn't the most complete WR in football, ever.
Moss's "jogging off the line of scrimmage" was to fake defensive backs out so he could then accelerate past them. It's sad that you didn't pick up on this.

Just because Moss made it look easy didn't mean he was "taking plays off."
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Saints-Tigers View Post
How is TO more complete than Moss? TO doesn't even have good hands.

The TO myths bother me more than anything. The dude is strong as an ox and jacked, so people think that means he was constantly bulling guys over like Anquan Boldin, when he was really one handing the ball like a bread loaf, running away from guys, and then tip toeing out of bounds.

Yes, Randy did everything well as far as being a receiver. He could run every route effectively, was dominant in the redzone, a dominant deep threat, and really dangerous in space.

Jerry Rice was better, but that's it.
This is true, except the part about Owens being strong as an ox. That is part of where that myth comes from - there were plenty of receivers in the NFL stronger than Owens. Being the most chiseled does not necessarily mean you're the strongest. Owens never blew anyone away in the weight lifting portion of the Superstars competitions he competed in. In 2000 and 2001, he managed the same amount - 260 - and was below the linebackers who competed in the events. He was tied with Michael Westbrook in 2000.

Come the 100-yard-dash, though, it was another story.

People have always had the descriptions of Moss and Owens pretty much backwards. Owens was the pure speed receiver, Moss was the complete one.
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Old 02-27-2013, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BallerT1215 View Post
TO could run any route there was and would do it precisely.

He had the speed to run away from people, and I saw plenty of time where he used his size to throw CB's off him similar to what you see Calvin do now a days.

His hands were not the greatest but he was a COMPLETE WR.
Terrell Owens himself said route running has always been his weakness.

Owens can run any route there is - he just can't run all of them well. He struggles with the hard angled cuts. That's always been the scouting report on him. He has great speed in his stem, he gets up on the corner quickly, but he's not really quick out of his breaks.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:02 PM    (permalink
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Most complete? No. Best or most dominant? I woulda said so a year ago but now Calvin is staking a claim to that.

Do I agree maybe Moss gets a bad rap and isnt as 1-dimensional as some people think he was? Yea ok to a degree. But no he was never the most complete. He has never been the best route runner. Never been the physically toughest. His greatness was about burning and outleaping people and just making insane catches. And as far as attitude and work ethic, Im sorry it just wasnt there. He worked harder than most people think, but compared to the other great ones, his work ethic was lacking, this guy was no jerry rice, no michael jordan, he wasnt that kind of competitor.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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lol@ this thread title. If you were an ad agency, you'd be sued for false advertisement.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:06 PM    (permalink
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This is true, except the part about Owens being strong as an ox. That is part of where that myth comes from - there were plenty of receivers in the NFL stronger than Owens. Being the most chiseled does not necessarily mean you're the strongest. Owens never blew anyone away in the weight lifting portion of the Superstars competitions he competed in. In 2000 and 2001, he managed the same amount - 260 - and was below the linebackers who competed in the events. He was tied with Michael Westbrook in 2000.

Come the 100-yard-dash, though, it was another story.

People have always had the descriptions of Moss and Owens pretty much backwards. Owens was the pure speed receiver, Moss was the complete one.
lmao moss was much faster than TO. He had much better hands than TO.

TO wasnt a great route runner, but he was a more complete receiver in the sense that he was much more physical and tough and he had the work ethic that randy never had. He took such better care of his body. And if youre saying TO can only bench 260 LMFAO!!!!! I can almost bench 260 and TO would swat me like a fly if I attempted to step to him...TO was one of the most well-conditioned athletes weve ever seen, he was in incredible shape, and not just brute strength but the whole package, flexibility everything. TO was one of the hardest receivers to tackle in the history of the game. Randy was elusive but he wasnt a load to bring down.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:07 PM    (permalink
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this thread is so stupid i dont know why Im wasting my breath even trying to talk sense.
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:41 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Eazy Picks View Post
lmao moss was much faster than TO. He had much better hands than TO.

TO wasnt a great route runner, but he was a more complete receiver in the sense that he was much more physical and tough and he had the work ethic that randy never had. He took such better care of his body.
Except he wasn't. Owens was not a physical receiver. At all.

And no, Moss was most certainly not "much faster than TO." Owens would beat Moss in a race every time. There are only 2 players in the history of the game who would have any chance vs. Owens in a 100 yard race, and Moss isn't one of them (Bob Hayes, Willie Gault).

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And if youre saying TO can only bench 260 LMFAO!!!!! I can almost bench 260 and TO would swat me like a fly if I attempted to step to him...TO was one of the most well-conditioned athletes weve ever seen, he was in incredible shape, and not just brute strength but the whole package, flexibility everything. TO was one of the hardest receivers to tackle in the history of the game. Randy was elusive but he wasnt a load to bring down.
No, I'm not talking about bench press.

And Jerry Rice and John Taylor were both harder to bring down than Owens. Owens was able to break tackles with agility and balance, not "brute strength."

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Old 02-28-2013, 12:35 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Eazy Picks View Post
lmao moss was much faster than TO. He had much better hands than TO.

TO wasnt a great route runner, but he was a more complete receiver in the sense that he was much more physical and tough and he had the work ethic that randy never had. He took such better care of his body. And if youre saying TO can only bench 260 LMFAO!!!!! I can almost bench 260 and TO would swat me like a fly if I attempted to step to him...TO was one of the most well-conditioned athletes weve ever seen, he was in incredible shape, and not just brute strength but the whole package, flexibility everything. TO was one of the hardest receivers to tackle in the history of the game. Randy was elusive but he wasnt a load to bring down.

I think on those Superstars challenges don't they do an INCLINE BP, not a flat BP??

If it's an incline BP, that means TO's flat BP is close to 350#, a great number for a WR.


EDIT: Why is Jordan claiming TO and Randy Moss had similar speed??
TO had great game speed, but his foot speed was NOTHING like Randy Moss. No modern WR has Moss' speed. Moss may have been the fastest WR to ever play the position.

And no, Moss was most certainly not "much faster than TO." Owens would beat Moss in a race every time. There are only 2 players in the history of the game who would have any chance vs. Owens in a 100 yard race, and Moss isn't one of them (Bob Hayes, Willie Gault).

ALL of that previous quote is wrong.

TO may have appeared faster to some than Randy Moss, but that's because TO played hard nearly all the time, he didn't take plays off. Moss went hard at the snap only when he felt like it.
Randy Moss ran a 4.2. Conservatively that's at least three tenths of a second better than TO's best 40 before he was drafted by the 49ers.

You need to do some more research on that on Taber. I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt instead of saying you're making crap up.;)
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:45 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
I think on those Superstars challenges don't they do an INCLINE BP, not a flat BP??

If it's an incline BP, that means TO's flat BP is close to 350#, a great number for a WR.
Wayne Chrebet and Michael Westbrook did the same as Owens.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:51 AM    (permalink
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EDIT: Why is Jordan claiming TO and Randy Moss had similar speed??
TO had great game speed, but his foot speed was NOTHING like Randy Moss. No modern WR has Moss' speed. Moss may have been the fastest WR to ever play the position.
False. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. It's laughable that you even believe in the myth of "game speed" to begin with. The fastest players in pads are the fastest players without pads, period the end. Anyone who has ever been around football players will tell you the same thing.


Quote:
ALL of that previous quote is wrong.

TO may have appeared faster to some than Randy Moss, but that's because TO played hard nearly all the time, he didn't take plays off. Moss went hard at the snap only when he felt like it.
Randy Moss ran a 4.2. Conservatively that's at least three tenths of a second better than TO's best 40 before he was drafted by the 49ers.
Owens didn't run the 40 at the 1996 combine. He ran his 40 at a pro day on a hallway floor because it was raining (true story - look it up) and was timed at 4.47. And Owens wasn't nearly as fast coming out as he was a few years later.

Moss never ran a real 4.25. That's some BS "hand held stopwatch" rumor that came from the land of fairies and dragons where DeAngelo Hall runs 4.19, Randall Williams 4.09, Kevin Mathis 4.19, Deion Sanders 4.19, and Fred Thomas 4.22.

Players in recent years have gotten the 40-yard-dash down to a science, and almost nobody since the advent of "official timing" has done sub-4.3. It's a huge headline when that happens.

Besides which, the 40-yard-dash is not a real event. Real track stars roll their eyes at the 40-yard-dash. When Usain Bolt wins gold in the "40-yard-dash," let me know.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:54 AM    (permalink
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I hate this board during the draft season. Part-timers ruin it.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:02 AM    (permalink
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aeJJfl1jhfE

http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/...ckval=GooglePM

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"During the 49ers' recent visit to Osaka, Japan, Owens raced receiver Mike Jennings in the 40-yard dash and smoked him. Jennings -- a track sprinter in college..."

Now, trivia time: Which of these two receivers was caught from behind in the open field by Terence Newman?
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:16 AM    (permalink
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A 4.2 40 handtime IS a real 40 time. It's not electronic, but it's the method of measurement every HS, college and pro coach uses to get times on players.

So, if Randy Moss ran a handtimed 4.2 40 and Terrell Owens ran a 4.47 handtimed 40, you can adjust those numbers all you want.
Moss had faster timed speed than Owens.

There's clearly no evidence ANYWHERE to support this statement;

And no, Moss was most certainly not "much faster than TO." Owens would beat Moss in a race every time. There are only 2 players in the history of the game who would have any chance vs. Owens in a 100 yard race, and Moss isn't one of them (Bob Hayes, Willie Gault).

It's like you have this alternate reality of football facts JT that contradicts what many of us know to be true.

When Darrell Green was at the end of his career and had the opportunity to cover a young Randy Moss, he said the kid was one the fastest players he'd ever seen, and he did compare him to Ron Brown, one of the few WRs Darrell Green could NOT cover on a 9 route.

And why are you dissing the 40 yard dash as a 'real' track event??

Ever heard of the 60 yard dash run during indoor track season??
How about the 55 meter dash??
All very similar races to the 40 yard sprint.
Track sprinters run them during indoor track season to work on their starts off the blocks to better prepare them for the 100 meter dash in the outdoor season.

Track athletes don't laugh at 40 times. They don't think about them because it's a different sport.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:22 AM    (permalink
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Moss deciding to dog it at various times in his career automatically disqualifies him from being the most complete receiver of all time. Perhaps he had more talent when he actually decided to utilize it, but his heart and dedication to the integrity of the game have been questioned for years. It's a shame really.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:29 AM    (permalink
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JT demonstrates the most comprehensive misunderstanding of reality I've ever seen. Flip everything he says and it's pretty spot on.

No difference between game speed in pads and running in shorts?

TO is faster than Randy Moss?

If these are inferences you've actually made from scouting and watching football, then I hope that whatever it is you choose to do with your life does not involve analysis of any sort.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:30 AM    (permalink
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A 4.2 40 handtime IS a real 40 time. It's not electronic, but it's the method of measurement every HS, college and pro coach uses to get times on players.
Owens has been hand timed much faster than 4.47 before. He didn't run his 40 on a track, he ran it on a hallway floor, where he could barely even get any traction. Moss ran whatever BS "4.25" is floating around out there on a rubber track. You do understand the difference between a fast and slow track, right?

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There's clearly no evidence ANYWHERE to support this statement;
I already posted evidence. Randy Moss has no credentials to argue with Owens's track record (no pun intended). Let me know when Moss races someone of note and smokes him, or wins back-to-back 100-yard dashes with times on sand only a couple tenths of a second higher than some of Willie Gault's 100-yard runs on asphalt. People at Florida State would probably tell you the guy Owens smoked in the 40-yard race in Japan, Michael Jennings, was faster than Moss.

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When Darrell Green was at the end of his career and had the opportunity to cover a young Randy Moss, he said the kid was one the fastest players he'd ever seen, and he did compare him to Ron Brown, one of the few WRs Darrell Green could NOT cover on a 9 route.
So what?

I never said Moss wasn't fast. I said he wasn't as fast as Owens.

Darrell Green lost in the 100 one year at the Superstars to Herschel Walker.

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And why are you dissing the 40 yard dash as a 'real' track event??

Ever heard of the 60 yard dash run during indoor track season??
How about the 55 meter dash??
All very similar races to the 40 yard sprint.
Track sprinters run them during indoor track season to work on their starts off the blocks to better prepare them for the 100 meter dash in the outdoor season.

Track athletes don't laugh at 40 times. They don't think about them because it's a different sport.
What does a 55 meter run have to do with a 40-yard-dash? Track stars don't run 40s and they look at them as a joke. Usain Bolt rolls his eyes at the idea of racing Chris Johnson in the 40. A 40 yard race can be decided by mere reaction time. It's not a good test of speed. Guys don't even peak speed-wise until around the 50-60 split.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:36 AM    (permalink
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JT demonstrates the most comprehensive misunderstanding of reality I've ever seen. Flip everything he says and it's pretty spot on.

No difference between game speed in pads and running in shorts?

TO is faster than Randy Moss?

If these are inferences you've actually made from scouting and watching football, then I hope that whatever it is you choose to do with your life does not involve analysis of any sort.
"Game speed in pads"...redundant. All game speed is in pads.

No, what I said is the fastest players without pads are always the fastest players in pads. Everyone wears pads, and they're all equally affected. If you take a track star and put him in pads, guess what? He's going to be one of the fastest players on the field every single time.

This "game speed" myth comes from people not understanding that a player with a slower 40 time might be faster than someone with a faster time on the back end, and if he gets a couple steps on the guy, once he clears the first 10-20 yards, he's faster than the guy chasing him at top speed and can pull away.

It has nothing to do with "playing fast" or "being quick n agile n a good route runnerzzzz" or any of that other inane stuff people spew.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:53 AM    (permalink
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Would you stop repping Superstars competitions like they're the U.S. Olympics track and field trials??

Darrell Green beat Carl Lewis in college in the 100m. Darrell Green's fastest time in the 100m is 10.08. Herschel Walker can run in a million made for TV events, he's NOT faster than Darrell Green.

You do know people question the actual length the competitors run in those Superstars competitions? You can' take those times and compare them to athletes who run in more controlled environments.

Who did Owens beat in the Superstars competitions who was really fast?? No one.

Randy Moss was timed at FSU in 4.25, a school with a rep for putting out accurate times on its players. Bobby Bowden said that was the fastest 40 ever run at FSU, second only to Deion Sanders' 4.23.

At Marshall, Randy Moss dicked around with the track team and qualified for the NCAAs in the 200 meter running a 21.15 and he set the Marshall record in the 55m running a 6.32.
Marshall's track coach Jeff Small said Moss easily could have been a world class sprinter and called him the best pure runner he'd ever seen.

TO doesn't have that kind of speed. He never did. But he was still fast, a burner in pads. But Moss is on a different level.

So yeah, Randy Moss was significantly faster than TO in or out of pads.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:58 AM    (permalink
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"Game speed in pads"...redundant. All game speed is in pads.

No, what I said is the fastest players without pads are always the fastest players in pads. Everyone wears pads, and they're all equally affected. If you take a track star and put him in pads, guess what? He's going to be one of the fastest players on the field every single time.

This "game speed" myth comes from people not understanding that a player with a slower 40 time might be faster than someone with a faster time on the back end, and if he gets a couple steps on the guy, once he clears the first 10-20 yards, he's faster than the guy chasing him at top speed and can pull away.

It has nothing to do with "playing fast" or "being quick n agile n a good route runnerzzzz" or any of that other inane stuff people spew.

THis isn't what people mean by 'game speed'. Game speed means football isn't played in a straight line. Football speed is about stops/starts, sidesteps, jumps and spins, cutbacks and about how quickly you can hit a top gear in the least amount of steps. The football field is only 100 yards long so most significant runs are about initial quickness and explosion.

It's why guys who are more quick than fast routinely make plays against players who are significantly faster running the 40.


Moss had better TIMED speed and GAME speed than TO, and nearly every other player who wore pads in the NFL.
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:05 AM    (permalink
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If we lived in a barracks, would we put bars of soap in our socks and beat sense into JT?
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:12 AM    (permalink
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Interesting tidbit with Kyle Shanahan regarding game speed in reference to Alfred Morris earlier this past season.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...-time-because/
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