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Old 02-28-2013, 12:46 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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44% of his passes traveled less than 5 yards.

http://secondroundstats.com/2013/02/...ics-breakdown/
That doesn't speak to the claim you made.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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Are you freaking serious? Not going to Mobile is your big knock on him? That is utterly ridiculous. So in your mind, Locker and Ponder are better QBs than Geno not because of their comparative skills sets, but because he didn't go to mobile. He didn't need to compete with those clowns. They were the worst collective group of QB's in recent memory. His decision not to go was completely justified by their putrid play and he made sure he wasn't going to be lumped in with them.
being a starting QB the league is about playing well under pressure. Mobile is a pressure packed atmosphere. Im not saying Locker and Ponder are better. I am saying that they competed and Geno didn't. His decision to not go was politically good but it was against the spirit of the game... Which is to compete. Again it reminds me of Brady Quinn. That dude thought he was the dogs balls and everyone around him told him he was going really high. And then he didn't.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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For me Smith is somewhere between a Sam Bradford and a Blaine Gabbert. Not a big fan but he might be getting a bit of a raw deal as far as people's assumptions go.

On an unrelated topic Ryan Swope is getting a raw deal as far as what people's perceptions of him are.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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being a starting QB the league is about playing well under pressure. Mobile is a pressure packed atmosphere. Im not saying Locker and Ponder are better. I am saying that they competed and Geno didn't. His decision to not go was politically good but it was against the spirit of the game... Which is to compete. Again it reminds me of Brady Quinn. That dude thought he was the dogs balls and everyone around him told him he was going really high. And then he didn't.
It was a savy move to show how confidently he felt that he was better than those bums who were throws passes at receivers ankles. Gino Smith is not afraid of competition. And unlike Quinn, the media did not swoon over Smith as the #1 pick of the next year's draft. That's why Quinn's head got big. There is no parallel here.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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For me Smith is somewhere between a Sam Bradford and a Blaine Gabbert. Not a big fan but he might be getting a bit of a raw deal as far as people's assumptions go.

On an unrelated topic Ryan Swope is getting a raw deal as far as what people's perceptions of him are.
I somewhat disagree. The problem with Swope is that his physical attributes were never talked about!! Why? I have no idea, especially when other skill players measurables are overexaggerated, sometimes over the course of years. I was SHOCKED when I saw he gained nearly 1900 his senior year in high school a running back.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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For me Smith is somewhere between a Sam Bradford and a Blaine Gabbert. Not a big fan but he might be getting a bit of a raw deal as far as people's assumptions go.

On an unrelated topic Ryan Swope is getting a raw deal as far as what people's perceptions of him are.
I would say Ryan and Bradford (as pros, not prospects).
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:57 PM    (permalink
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I am, and I still see a QB that is MUCH better than one Mark Sanchez who by the way played with a ton of talent around him. How much has his charisma helped him on the pro level?
You see that because you want to see that.

Sanchez had the intangibles, better mechanics, played in a pro style offense and had more upside.

And Sanchez made two AFC Champ games with the stupidest organization ever. He's such a joke now with a horrible supporting cast and horrible offensive coaching, but they truly messed him up.

He made game winning drives in postseason games and had like 4 playoff road wins and brought his team back in Pittsburgh in a game they may have won if Ben didn't complete that 3rd and 5. He tore that D up in the 2nd half.

Then the brilliant Jets decided to take away his two favorite receivers for no known reason, make Santonio freaking Holmes captain, and not address the running game when Sanchez's best was the playaction pass. He was looking at 0 open receivers for the majority of the past two years because no D respected the run and Keller/WRs got NOOOOOOO separatoin.

Normally I think a QB should transcend all of that but the way things played out, Sanchez is only partially to blame. Carroll may have been right, maybe he did come out too early and the early success stunted his growth.

But he was clearly a better prospect than Smith coming out and showed well early in his career. His demise has truly been amazing. And now he's just thought of as the butt-fumble QB with no context. Yes he's been way below average and has no confidence - but everything around him crumbled and that's part of it.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:01 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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You see that because you want to see that.

Sanchez had the intangibles, better mechanics, played in a pro style offense and had more upside.

And Sanchez made two AFC Champ games with the stupidest organization ever. He's such a joke now with a horrible supporting cast and horrible offensive coaching, but they truly messed him up.

He made game winning drives in postseason games and had like 4 playoff road wins and brought his team back in Pittsburgh in a game they may have won if Ben didn't complete that 3rd and 5. He tore that D up in the 2nd half.

Then the brilliant Jets decided to take away his two favorite receivers for no known reason, make Santonio freaking Holmes captain, and not address the running game when Sanchez's best was the playaction pass. He was looking at 0 open receivers for the majority of the past two years because no D respected the run and Keller/WRs got NOOOOOOO separatoin.

Normally I think a QB should transcend all of that but the way things played out, Sanchez is only partially to blame. Carroll may have been right, maybe he did come out too early and the early success stunted his growth.

But he was clearly a better prospect than Smith coming out and showed well early in his career. His demise has truly been amazing. And now he's just thought of as the butt-fumble QB with no context. Yes he's been way below average and has no confidence - but everything around him crumbled and that's part of it.
Nope, you are seeing things as either a big time USC fan, a Sanchez family memeber or something of the like. Sanchez is a joke as and elite level QB and pretty much everyone else knows it. When he "took" the Jets to the AFC title games, he was riding the coatails of an elite defense and a very strong running game and you know it. And no one was calling the organization a joke then.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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I somewhat disagree. The problem with Swope is that his physical attributes were never talked about!! Why? I have no idea, especially when other skill players measurables are overexaggerated, sometimes over the course of years. I was SHOCKED when I saw he gained nearly 1900 his senior year in high school a running back.
I guess it was too easy to just assume he was this slot receiver like a Wes Welker. Of course if you could be Wes Welker with another 20 lbs and 4.34 speed then you're going to get drafted pretty early.

My attempt there was to point out how stereotypes are alive and well.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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I guess it was too easy to just assume he was this slot receiver like a Wes Welker. Of course if you could be Wes Welker with another 20 lbs and 4.34 speed then you're going to get drafted pretty early.

My attempt there was to point out how stereotypes are alive and well.
That I TOTALLY agree with, I just don't think that was the biggest factor in Swope's case. If you noticed, the people covering the combine appeared to be shocked as well, and they shouldn't have!! Do those lazy genius's know about wikipedia?? Dayum...
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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That I TOTALLY agree with, I just don't think that was the biggest factor in Swope's case. If you noticed, the people covering the combine appeared to be shocked as well, and they shouldn't have!! Do those lazy genius's know about wikipedia?? Dayum...
Or watch tape. Running away from defenders in the SEC is no easy feat.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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Nope, you are seeing things as either a big time USC fan, a Sanchez family memeber or something of the like. Sanchez is a joke as and elite level QB and pretty much everyone else knows it. When he "took" the Jets to the AFC title games, he was riding the coatails of an elite defense and a very strong running game and you know it. And no one was calling the organization a joke then.
He wasn't always and he definitely wasn't coming out. That's my point.

He hasn't developed into a great QB and has completely regressed (at least partially due to the legitimate reasons I brought up).

But there's a difference between being the joke he's thought of now and the prospect he once was. Hindsight is 20/20.

Sanchez had a 9/3 TD/INT in the playoffs and was awesome in the Colts/Steelers game in particular. He accounted for 32 TDs the following year. Then the wheels fell off.

You are making it seem as if he was picked 1/6 completely irresponsibly and never showed any reason why he was a good prospect. That was not the case. His demise has been amazing and unprecedented which is why this cross-draft comparison is silly.

The better way would be to evaluate Geno Smith as a prospect rather than compare him to one of the most unique QB prospect developments in NFL history.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:12 PM    (permalink
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He wasn't always and he definitely wasn't coming out. That's my point.

He hasn't developed into a great QB and has completely regressed (at least partially due to the legitimate reasons I brought up).

But there's a difference between being the joke he's thought of now and the prospect he once was. Hindsight is 20/20.

Sanchez had a 9/3 TD/INT in the playoffs and was awesome in the Colts/Steelers game in particular. He accounted for 32 TDs the following year. Then the wheels fell off.

You are making it seem as if he was picked 1/6 completely irresponsibly and never showed any reason why he was a good prospect. That was not the case. His demise has been amazing and unprecedented which is why this cross-draft comparison is silly.

The better way would be to evaluate Geno Smith as a prospect rather than compare him to one of the most unique QB prospect developments in NFL history.
I am comparing SMITH to SANCHEZ COMING OUT. I stated that very clearly. Sanchez was NOT talking about as a top ten QB until he started the media circuit. You yourself admitted he benefitted from being charismatic. I didn't see a guts and glory football player when I heard him speak, I heard a marketer. I said it then so please don't tell me I am Monday morning QBing anything.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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I am comparing SMITH to SANCHEZ COMING OUT. I stated that very clearly. Sanchez was NOT talking about as a top ten QB until he started the media circuit. You yourself admitted he benefitted from being charismatic. I didn't see a guts and glory football player when I heard him speak, I heard a marketer. I said it then so please don't tell me I am Monday morning QBing anything.
So your point is that the media is to blame for Geno Smith not being thought of as a high draft pick?
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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So your point is that the media is to blame for Geno Smith not being thought of as a high draft pick?
IN PART, yes, that is the point I am making. Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, David Carr, Mark Sanchez, these guys were all flawed pocket passers as is Smith, but the difference is their deficiencies were either overlooked or accepted. What did you say, Sanchez was charismatic? Yeah, that. Jeoy Harrington was sold as a renaissance man who played the piano. David Carr? Married and wholesome. Couch had the gawd numbers.

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Old 02-28-2013, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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IN PART, yes, that is the point I am making. Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, David Carr, Mark Sanchez, these guys were all flawed pocket passers as is Smith, but the difference is their deficiencies were either overlooked or accepted. What did you say, Sanchez was charismatic? Yeah, that.
You can't completely overlook charisma, especially as it relates to the locker room and community.

It's still a business.

I've heard NFL people question Geno Smith's leadership qualities and I saw the Mooch interview.

I also heard a quote from someone about how Wilson's interview last year was the best he's ever seen.

That has it's place in the eval process whether you think it should or not. And I'd argue it should have a place.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:30 PM    (permalink
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IN PART, yes, that is the point I am making. Joey Harrington, Tim Couch, David Carr, Mark Sanchez, these guys were all flawed pocket passers as is Smith, but the difference is their deficiencies were either overlooked or accepted. What did you say, Sanchez was charismatic? Yeah, that. Jeoy Harrington was sold as a renaissance man who played the piano. David Carr? Married and wholesome. Couch had the gawd numbers.
I just don't think NFL teams care about what the media has to say. They have plenty of resources to find out what they want about each player. And they get to meet with him multiple times.

Your problem seems to be with how these players are portrayed to the public. You think it's unfair. That's fine, but the public perception ultimately doesn't matter. Each team's perception does.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:33 PM    (permalink
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You can't completely overlook charisma, especially as it relates to the locker room and community.

It's still a business.

I've heard NFL people question Geno Smith's leadership qualities and I saw the Mooch interview.

I also heard a quote from someone about how Wilson's interview last year was the best he's ever seen.

That has it's place in the eval process whether you think it should or not. And I'd argue it should have a place.
And I'd agree. But if you can speak, you can be all the more charismatic if you are AFFORDED multiple speaking opportunities. That's the problem I had with how Sanchez was treated by the media. It game him an unfair advantage IMO. Shame on the Jets for falling victim.

Also, I don't believe that Sanchez's actual teamates bought into the charisma thing nearly as much as the media did. I don't doubt he may be likable, but honestly, does this guy make you want to go do war? Look, I can't stand Philip Rivers, but at least I have no question whatsoever that these guy wants the other teams guts on a silver platter. When Drew Brees makes a bad play, you can see in his eyes that he IS going to make up for it shortly. I never saw Sanchez in that light.

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Old 02-28-2013, 01:36 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
I just don't think NFL teams care about what the media has to say. They have plenty of resources to find out what they want about each player. And they get to meet with him multiple times.

Your problem seems to be with how these players are portrayed to the public. You think it's unfair. That's fine, but the public perception ultimately doesn't matter. Each team's perception does.
And I completely disagree, I think it does. If you think it never does, then PLEASE, explain Tim Tebow to me. A man who will likely never start another game at QB three years ago was picked in the first round after the Broncos traded up to get him. Even the team said nothing about his ability to pass the ball. Every reason they gave for trading up for Tebow was emotion driven. Yeah, it DOES have an effect.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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The Broncos traded up for Tebow because they wanted him as their QB. McDaniels thought he could change his throwing motion. It was not a ploy to get attention. If it was, they wouldn't have played Orton for so long while the fans demanded Tebow...

And to back that up... BILL BELICHICK also wanted Tebow. You think he wanted him because of the public?
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:56 PM    (permalink
kwilk103
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44% of his passes traveled less than 5 yards.

http://secondroundstats.com/2013/02/...ics-breakdown/
thats partially due to our air raid offense

we didnt have a good running game, and holgorsen uses wr screens as extended handoffs
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:57 PM    (permalink
Attyla the Hawk
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I think you missing my overall point. Geno has his weaknesses, but by what standard is he being judged?
They are trying to apply a standard of play expected in the NFL.

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Are you telling me that Sanchez, Smith, Carr, Harrington, ect., all pocket passers like Geno were without fault?
No. Where would you read that into my quote?


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Why are Geno's deficiencies being played up to the extent they are?
Well because we're discussing him as a possible first round guy. Everyone's deficiencies are played up for good reason. Because missing on a QBOTF is a half a decade mistake for a team to recover from. You better well break down and nitpick deficiencies. Because it's those things that typically cause QBs to bust.

No QB is a finished product when they come into the league. But despite an average of just over 3 round 1 QBs a year being selected, about half of them are replaced within 5 years. Of course those players generally result in several miserable seasons and leave their fans in KC Chiefs purgatory.

Inaccuracy on NFL standard throws and bad decision making are HUGE red flags. I don't know how that can be characterized as 'played up'. Those are things that he must overcome and they are career ending deficiencies as they stand right now.

There are so many moving parts to playing the QB position. And being bad at any one of them can kill a career before it gets off the ground. As a raiders fan, I know you understand how just one or two liabilities can turn an otherwise great prospect into a grocery bagger before his rookie deal is done.

QBs aren't finished, and it's difficult to project how their strengths translate to the NFL game. Geno's NFL standard pass attempts are far and away the weakest aspect of his game. Certainly not on par with the top 4 QBs from last years' draft. He has a long road to hoe.
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Old 02-28-2013, 01:57 PM    (permalink
y.f.s.
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It comes down to on the field performance and we can say WVU had a bad D and only 2 good WR on offense but excuses do not get a QB up to 1 overall. If WVU's D was bad, Baylors was worse. (by the way both of Geno Smith's WR are better than the Jets WR last year, who trotted out Clyde Gates and Jason Hill as starters after Holmes went down, sometimes QBs will not have help).
I didn't see Baylor or Stanford missing a beat this year without Luck or RG3.

We'll see how good WVU is next year. Keep in mind, they played a Big 12 schedule for the first time ever. With Big East talent.

FWIW, I think Geno being "inaccurate on NFL throws" is kind of a misnomer. The Touch Pass inflates his gross statistics, sure, but he's still an incredibly accurate QB at almost every level of the field. Struggles most in the 20-30 yard range, like MOST QBs DO. Killer deep ball accuracy.



source: http://www.footballstudyhall.com/201...n-matt-barkley
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Tannehill was a better QB (than Gabbert) when he was still playing WR

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Old 02-28-2013, 01:58 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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The Broncos traded up for Tebow because they wanted him as their QB.

Okay, thanks for clearing that up, but were talking about WHY a team would want him for their QB.

McDaniels thought he could change his throwing motion. It was not a ploy to get attention. If it was, they wouldn't have played Orton for so long while the fans demanded Tebow...

Who said it was a ploy to get attention? Not sure why you would make that assertion.

And to back that up... BILL BELICHICK also wanted Tebow. You think he wanted him because of the public?
Oh yeah, that backs up everything. Bill Bellicheck obviously didn't want him that bad, so you can stop now. I know you might not believe this, but he didn't see Tebow as Brady's heir apparent. Bellicheck would have used him inside the ten at QB and had him playing other positions, probably on offense and defense. He once had a DE that caught 11 TD passes.

Hopefully you are done deflecting. There evidence is square in your face, teams are motivated, whether conciously or unconciously, but perceptions, emotions and qualities that are unrelated to football. They are human and the draft is not a science. And NO, they don't always know what the are doing. I don't know what team you root for, but I know
with 100% certainty that your team has made some very evaluations.
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:00 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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I didn't see Baylor or Stanford missing a beat this year without Luck or RG3.

We'll see how good WVU is next year. Keep in mind, they played a Big 12 schedule for the first time ever. With Big East talent.
Great point. It goes both ways. I remember everyone saying that Rothlisberger was overrated because he threw three picks in a loss to Ohio State. Two SB wins later....
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