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Old 03-01-2013, 01:58 AM    (permalink
JT Jag
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Chance Warmack is very, very good and if you have an interior line vacancy he is absolutely worth a top 15 pick.

Manti Te'o will be a very good pro at the NFL level but Warmack (and it was pretty much all Warmack) made him look like a child in the National Championship.
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:05 AM    (permalink
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Chance Warmack is very, very good and if you have an interior line vacancy he is absolutely worth a top 15 pick.

Manti Te'o will be a very good pro at the NFL level but Warmack (and it was pretty much all Warmack) made him look like a child in the National Championship.
If you're picking top 15, OG isn't your only weakness.

And if you really believe he's that good, than you're essentially saying Warmack is one of the best OG prospects ever.

And if Jeremiah is saying some teams have Cooper ranked higher, then we're essentially saying we've got 2 of the best OG prospects EVER.

Color me skeptical. They're great prospects but they're prisoners of their position. A position that can't create as much of an instant-turn-around that other positions can. As such, they're not worth top 15 and especially not top 10 picks.

I've seen Warmack mocked as high as 4. I could never see anything like that happening. I just can't fathom it.

As far as Te'o, you can say what you will about him as a prospect but you can't say with any certainty what he will be at the next level. I think he'll be average. Solid. It's an opinion. You have no way of knowing if he'll be a good pro. He could suck.

And again, I'm not disputing what type of prospect Warmack or Cooper are, I'm making a point that their position isn't as highly valued as other positions and it doesn't make sense to take them as high because their impact isn't as great.

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Old 03-01-2013, 02:11 AM    (permalink
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Manti Te'o will be a very good pro at the NFL level but Warmack (and it was pretty much all Warmack) made him look like a child in the National Championship.
Eddie Lacy kicked him off his legs like a small child a few times.
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:15 AM    (permalink
JT Jag
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Eddie Lacy kicked him off his legs like a small child a few times.
Eh, Te'o wasn't the only one Lacy has done that to last year.
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:18 AM    (permalink
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Eh, Te'o wasn't the only one Lacy has done that to last year.
The only problem was this time it was Nat'l Champ. And all eyes were on Te'o.
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Old 03-01-2013, 02:45 AM    (permalink
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I've been blasted for this on a Bears board, but...

If I want just a right guard in a non-ZBS, Warmack is pretty much an order of magnitude better. Like...an entirely different universe.

If I want a left guard in any scheme, Cooper is better.

If I want a guy with the versatility to play all three interior positions at a pro bowl level, Cooper is better.

If I want a guy who can play in every blocking scheme, Cooper is better.

For my Bears, we have a very young guy who can be an excellent mauler as long as he's used in the right guard position. We have a bad center and no left guard on the roster. Cooper is above Warmack on my board because of that.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:12 AM    (permalink
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If you're picking top 15, OG isn't your only weakness.

And if you really believe he's that good, than you're essentially saying Warmack is one of the best OG prospects ever.

And if Jeremiah is saying some teams have Cooper ranked higher, then we're essentially saying we've got 2 of the best OG prospects EVER.

Color me skeptical. They're great prospects but they're prisoners of their position. A position that can't create as much of an instant-turn-around that other positions can. As such, they're not worth top 15 and especially not top 10 picks.

I've seen Warmack mocked as high as 4. I could never see anything like that happening. I just can't fathom it.

As far as Te'o, you can say what you will about him as a prospect but you can't say with any certainty what he will be at the next level. I think he'll be average. Solid. It's an opinion. You have no way of knowing if he'll be a good pro. He could suck.

And again, I'm not disputing what type of prospect Warmack or Cooper are, I'm making a point that their position isn't as highly valued as other positions and it doesn't make sense to take them as high because their impact isn't as great.
I think anyone who follows the draft knows that philosophy. However, again, this a different year with no one all everything DE or QB(s) at the top of the draft and two of the best OG prospects of all time. It is what it is.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:00 AM    (permalink
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Positional importance? I'd think a Cowboys fan would recognize the positive impact Larry Allen had and come away pretty dang happy if they landed Warmack or Cooper


And yes i think the difference is major.
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Old 03-01-2013, 08:48 AM    (permalink
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This. Couldn't have said it better myself.

I love all these Cooper lovers that have come out of the woodwork since the combine. I challenge the majority of the Cooper lovers to say they even watched more than a handful of UNC games this year, or maybe just one? I know I did, and I didn't see a top 10 pick like some are projecting.
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Man get out of here with this crap, I hate these types of arguments. There were a TON of people who felt Cooper>Warmack before the combines and as long as you aren't blind in one or both eyes it was clearly obvious that he has insane athleticism, in fact we had been talking for months that depending on the scheme(power vs zone) that Cooper would be the better pick.


And now you have to have watched more then 4-5 games to talk about a prospect? Really? If you want that type of analysis you should go to the combines and sit down with the assistant coaches.


Cooper moves in space like something I've never seen before, the way he seals off his block, and gets to the next level is almost uncanny, there are maybe of handful of Guards in the league now you could say the same about. He doesn't have the brute force that Warmack does but that isn't the only thing that goes into playing Guard and evidenced by his 35 reps on the bench I'd say his 'lack of power' is probably over stated.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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Man get out of here with this crap, I hate these types of arguments. There were a TON of people who felt Cooper>Warmack before the combines and as long as you aren't blind in one or both eyes it was clearly obvious that he has insane athleticism, in fact we had been talking for months that depending on the scheme(power vs zone) that Cooper would be the better pick.


And now you have to have watched more then 4-5 games to talk about a prospect? Really? If you want that type of analysis you should go to the combines and sit down with the assistant coaches.


Cooper moves in space like something I've never seen before, the way he seals off his block, and gets to the next level is almost uncanny, there are maybe of handful of Guards in the league now you could say the same about. He doesn't have the brute force that Warmack does but that isn't the only thing that goes into playing Guard and evidenced by his 35 reps on the bench I'd say his 'lack of power' is probably over stated.
I haven't seen anyone say he lacks power.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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I haven't seen anyone say he lacks power.
Before the combines that was the knock on him that he wasn't as strong as Warmack and then people assumed because he was so athletic that he wasn't a really powerful in the box type of Guard. I'd also be willing to bet if most people guessed his reps they wouldn't have said 35, especially with the weight loss which is even more impressive.
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Old 03-01-2013, 09:43 AM    (permalink
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Before the combines that was the knock on him that he wasn't as strong as Warmack and then people assumed because he was so athletic that he wasn't a really powerful in the box type of Guard. I'd also be willing to bet if most people guessed his reps they wouldn't have said 35, especially with the weight loss which is even more impressive.
Come on, man. First of all, he is NOT as strong as Warmack on the field of play, but that is not in any way considered a "knock." Obviously, his weight room strength is great, perhaps greater than Warmack. But on the field, Warmack is stronger and it's not debateable. Also, what weight loss on the part of Cooper are you talking about? Don't you mean weight gain?

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Old 03-01-2013, 10:02 AM    (permalink
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Come on, man. First of all, he is NOT as strong as Warmack on the field of play, but that is not in any way considered a "knock." Obviously, his weight room strength is great, perhaps greater than Warmack. But on the field, Warmack is stronger and it's not debateable.

When did I debate that? I even admitted that in my first post.


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Also, what weight loss on the part of Cooper are you talking about? Don't you mean weight gain?
Correction, I got mixed up he did gain weight before the combine. Don't know why I thought he had lost some. I just don't like how some people assume he turned into a good prospect at the Combines. He's got a ton of starts under his belt, and has long been considered "arguably" the top interior line prospect:


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“I've been coaching 26 years now, and I've not had an interior lineman with his athletic ability,” Fedora said. “So he's pretty special.”


Tar Heels guard Jonathan Cooper is No. 24 in Mel Kiper Jr.'s latest ranking of the top NFL prospects. Cooper is a rare breed at his position, and he is one of the reasons North Carolina’s offensive line has been touted as one of the best in the country this year. He has been the lead blocker for Giovani Bernard, the ACC’s leading rusher, and the No. 3 rushing offense in the ACC. Cooper knows his assignments, is meticulous in his technique, can change directions quickly, and is explosive and strong. He also turned down the option of leaving for the NFL early in part because he promised his mom he would get his degree.


Cooper has started 43 games in his career -- the most of any active offensive lineman in the ACC. Some experts consider him the top offensive guard in the nation. Cooper was named to ESPN.com’s midseason All-America team, and should finish the season in that category, too -- a bonus for UNC considering Cooper almost left early for the NFL after former coach Butch Davis and his interim coach, Everett Withers, were fired.
http://espn.go.com/blog/acc/post/_/i...f-nations-best



That was in October, the only thing the Combine did was confirm what people knew. That's not even getting into the fact that he could play Center at a pro bowl level IMO, even though it wouldn't take advantage of his natural athleticism as well as Guard would.
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Old 03-01-2013, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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Either Warmack or Cooper will be a Rams as long as Lane Johnson is gone at 16
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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I totally agree. Most athletic interior lineman I've ever seen.
I think hes about even with Maurkice Pouncey
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:34 AM    (permalink
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I think hes about even with Maurkice Pouncey
And Mike ;)
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Old 03-01-2013, 11:48 AM    (permalink
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I think hes about even with Maurkice Pouncey
Hopefully he can use that athleticism better than Maurkice does. If I take a first round interior lineman, I'm not at all happy if I get Maurkice rather than Mike.
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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Hopefully he can use that athleticism better than Maurkice does. If I take a first round interior lineman, I'm not at all happy if I get Maurkice rather than Mike.
maurkice does a fine job, i do think hes going to be better in the new more ZBS oriented system.

no doubt hed be better at guard though
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Old 03-01-2013, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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They all can't be as awesome as Mike Pouncey. Sorry guys. :)
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Old 03-01-2013, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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Both Warmack and Cooper appear to have top 10 talent, of course the position will suggest a slightly lower pick.
If you want to run between the tackles, Warmack will be totally dominate in that scheme, if you want to use a ZBS system, Cooper will likely be a better prospect. Take your choice.
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Old 03-01-2013, 03:50 PM    (permalink
DrewyVuitton
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
Positional importance? I'd think a Cowboys fan would recognize the positive impact Larry Allen had and come away pretty dang happy if they landed Warmack or Cooper


And yes i think the difference is major.
I wouldn't be upset, but the Cowboys also aren't picking in the top half of the draft.

If Seldon Richardson or Jon Cyprien were on the the board and they still elected to pick a guard, I will think that's stupid.

I just don't value guards as much as most people. To me, the OL is more about solid players and continuity. Take Warmack and put him on a terrible line, the line will still be terrible. Put him on a good line, it'll get better. But how much more of an impact does he have compared to Warford?

Not worth it to me.
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Old 03-01-2013, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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I just don't value guards as much as most people. To me, the OL is more about solid players and continuity. Take Warmack and put him on a terrible line, the line will still be terrible. Put him on a good line, it'll get better. But how much more of an impact does he have compared to Warford?

You could do that for a bunch of positions. That's like saying put Dee Milliner in a terrible secondary and it's still terrible after. You need pieces around any player, why do you think so many people are giving Suh excuses in Detroit? He isn't turning that line into the best line in the NFL on his own and he's been in the league a few years now. There is a reason people say Warmack is the best player in the entire draft, and Warford is a 2nd round pick.


It's just like saying how much more of an impact does Iupati have in comparison to Nate Livings. There is a huge difference between an elite interior lineman and a solid one. You can't put 1 elite guard and surround him by crap on the rest of the line and think he'll change it by himself.
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Old 03-01-2013, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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You could do that for a bunch of positions. That's like saying put Dee Milliner in a terrible secondary and it's still terrible after. You need pieces around any player, why do you think so many people are giving Suh excuses in Detroit? He isn't turning that line into the best line in the NFL on his own and he's been in the league a few years now. There is a reason people say Warmack is the best player in the entire draft, and Warford is a 2nd round pick.


It's just like saying how much more of an impact does Iupati have in comparison to Nate Livings. There is a huge difference between an elite interior lineman and a solid one. You can't put 1 elite guard and surround him by crap on the rest of the line and think he'll change it by himself.
Great analysis, I could not have said it better.
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Old 03-02-2013, 01:21 AM    (permalink
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This is one of the most ignorant things I have ever seen posted in these forums. I mean, unless you're trolling, which may well be possible. Someone who holds this opinion either is screwing around or has never seen an Alabama game in the last three years.
http://youtu.be/kYVkEOzZkEM

Find me a snap in that game where Warmack dominates a LSU Dlineman in the run game...you won't. He is remarkable in pass protection throughout the game and he gets to the second level very quickly. He uses levarge to wash lineman out of gaps, sometimes he misses on down blocks and has to cut Dlineman. Hes an effective run blocker but hes not a road grader by any means. He can post Dlineman and give the RB a lane but I haven't seen Warmack whip a Dlineman out of a gap like I've seen Cooper do. People are comparing him to Steve Hutchinson but I think a more realistic comparison would be Ben Grubbs.

If you want to talk football I'm down but save the condescending stuff. Warmack had a good season and then Mayock boosted his stock even further. People are making assumptions about this kid
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Old 03-02-2013, 01:34 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SOnMyChest View Post
http://youtu.be/kYVkEOzZkEM

Find me a snap in that game where Warmack dominates a LSU Dlineman in the run game...you won't. He is remarkable in pass protection throughout the game and he gets to the second level very quickly. He uses levarge to wash lineman out of gaps, sometimes he misses on down blocks and has to cut Dlineman. Hes an effective run blocker but hes not a road grader by any means. He can post Dlineman and give the RB a lane but I haven't seen Warmack whip a Dlineman out of a gap like I've seen Cooper do. People are comparing him to Steve Hutchinson but I think a more realistic comparison would be Ben Grubbs.

If you want to talk football I'm down but save the condescending stuff. Warmack had a good season and then Mayock boosted his stock even further. People are making assumptions about this kid
NFL.com posted their pre season ratings awhile back and listed Warmack as the #1 prospect in this years draft ahead of Joeckel who was #2.

That is what is generating all the Warmack talk, not just what Mayock said. Now, perhaps, we are all forgetting that Alabama had one of the greatest OL's of all time and perhaps all will be drafted in rounds 1/2 and just maybe, Warmack had a lot of help opening up running lanes for Lacy, but right now, you cannot deny that Lacy had immense holes to run through and that Warmack played a huge part in that.

Cooper is now getting the credit he deserves and is getting a lot of top 10 talk, so he is obviously no slouch either, I think it is one of those situations where their futures as pros will decide who is the best just like the pro game will decide who in the end, is the best LT in this year's draft.

We are just going to have to wait for those results, but for now, I think Warmack will be picked slightly higher than Cooper.
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