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Old 03-02-2013, 01:59 PM    (permalink
Brothgar
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Originally Posted by Mufasa View Post
And with the exception of Romo, Schaub, and maybe Rivers now, who are all borderline anyway, none of those teams would even consider letting their QB walk. Once you find a good QB, you keep him.
Maybe that mindset it wrong when they start asking for top 5 QB money. The QB isn't THAT much more important than every other position on the field.

If Dwayne Bowe came out and said I want Calvin Johnson money he would be let go. Lets say Cliff Avril comes out and says he wants Mario Williams money he will go unsigned. Getting the QB at the cost of the rest of the team is folly. It makes Ozzie's job that much harder now that he is going to have to find replacements for right around 3 starters in this years draft.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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Maybe that mindset it wrong when they start asking for top 5 QB money. The QB isn't THAT much more important than every other position on the field.

If Dwayne Bowe came out and said I want Calvin Johnson money he would be let go. Lets say Cliff Avril comes out and says he wants Mario Williams money he will go unsigned. Getting the QB at the cost of the rest of the team is folly. It makes Ozzie's job that much harder now that he is going to have to find replacements for right around 3 starters in this years draft.
The thing that makes QB's not comparable to other positions is the fact that it takes time for a QB to mature into the type of player that Flacco is. Maybe the Ravens could go out and find another Flacco. However, it's likely going to take 3+ years until he reaches the same level. For a team like the Ravens they simply can't wait for that QB to mature with the core they have. If the Chiefs wanted to replace Dwayne Bowe they could draft a WR in the 1st round. If they pick the right guy he'll be a good pro by year 2.
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Maybe that mindset it wrong when they start asking for top 5 QB money. The QB isn't THAT much more important than every other position on the field.

If Dwayne Bowe came out and said I want Calvin Johnson money he would be let go. Lets say Cliff Avril comes out and says he wants Mario Williams money he will go unsigned. Getting the QB at the cost of the rest of the team is folly. It makes Ozzie's job that much harder now that he is going to have to find replacements for right around 3 starters in this years draft.
Except that it is. You can win without good DEs or good WRs. You won't win without a good QB. If any of those QBs absolutely demanded to be paid like Flacco, the team would eventually cave and give it to them.
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Old 03-02-2013, 02:24 PM    (permalink
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Except that it is. You can win without good DEs or good WRs. You won't win without a good QB. If any of those QBs absolutely demanded to be paid like Flacco, the team would eventually cave and give it to them.
But few of these good QBs can win without a team around them. See Rivers, Philip three years ago he was Joe Flacco chronic playoff QB every year and winning a game or two. Then what happens? His team falls apart. LT leaves and Gates gets injured. All of a sudden he "isn't a good QB any more" he didn't get worse his team did. I'd be willing to bet that if you went into a time machine and gave Rivers his team back from the Marty era he'd be in the playoffs again.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:14 PM    (permalink
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good move. Congrats go flacco. He has improved each year and seems like a hard working guy. He blew up at the right time and cashed in.
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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He's an ascending quarterback, and he has the credentials to back it up. It's the price you pay for a franchise qb of his caliber. He'll have to get more consistent to justify the contract but he's in his prime and I expect him to grow. He's grown a lot under Caldwell. He'll keep improving. He's a top 10 qb right now and he'll become better with age.
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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Except that Flacco is save the playoff run not this amazing QB people claim him. Around average. Finding an average QB within the next two draft classes shouldn't be hard for the Ravens.

To add to that the 20 mil a year also goes to keeping other starters is Joe Flacco worth 7 starters? I say no.
Flacco is better than average. His numbers have been pretty decent his entire career, and he's helped the Ravens win a playoff game in each of his five seasons. If finding an "average" quarterback like Flacco was so easy then a team like Arizona or the Browns would have done it by now. If you have a quarterback, you don't risk losing him.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 03-02-2013, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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But few of these good QBs can win without a team around them. See Rivers, Philip three years ago he was Joe Flacco chronic playoff QB every year and winning a game or two. Then what happens? His team falls apart. LT leaves and Gates gets injured. All of a sudden he "isn't a good QB any more" he didn't get worse his team did. I'd be willing to bet that if you went into a time machine and gave Rivers his team back from the Marty era he'd be in the playoffs again.
No, Rivers has gotten pretty bad in the last couple of years making stupid decisions with the football and throwing bad interceptions. His career is starting to take a Carson Palmer turn for the worst.
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Old 03-02-2013, 05:46 PM    (permalink
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Flacco is better than average. His numbers have been pretty decent his entire career, and he's helped the Ravens win a playoff game in each of his five seasons. If finding an "average" quarterback like Flacco was so easy then a team like Arizona or the Browns would have done it by now. If you have a quarterback, you don't risk losing him.
Has he now? Let us examine the evidence.

2012 Joe Flacco
14th in yards
14th in attempts
33.2 Att/G Average 32.8
15th in Competions
23rd in Completion %
Completion% 59.9 League average 61.09
16th in yards per game
238.6 Y/G for Flacco League Average 233
13th in yards per attempt
Flacco 7.2 League Average 7.1
17th in Touchdowns
Joe Flacco 22 TDs League Average 20.6
7th least in interceptions (of those QBs that started 16 games)
7th in Att/INT
Flacco has 53.1 League Average 42.71

League average is for all QBs who have more than 210 Attempts

Maybe that was a down year lets check 2011

2011 Joe Flacco
13th in Completions
10th in Attempts
12th in Yards
23rd in Yards/Att
6.7 for Falcco 8.2 for the League Average
19th in Yar/G
206.1 for Flacco 237 League Average
13th in TDs
18th in INTs
9th in ATT/INT
Joe Flacco 45.1 League Average 39.4
24th in ATT/TD
29.1 for Flacco 22.7 League Average
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 03-02-2013, 05:52 PM    (permalink
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Joe Flacco wasn't paid because of what he did in the 2012 regular season. He was paid because of what he did in the postseason.
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Old 03-02-2013, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Joe Flacco wasn't paid because of what he did in the 2012 regular season. He was paid because of what he did in the postseason.
But to get to the 2013 post season he is going to have to play more like he did in the post season than he did in the regular season.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 03-02-2013, 07:22 PM    (permalink
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Let's not forget how close the Ravens came to winning the AFC as the 2011 season as well. If you think Flacco's contract was all about 1 postseason, you have a short memory.
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Old 03-02-2013, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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Let's not forget how close the Ravens came to winning the AFC as the 2011 season as well. If you think Flacco's contract was all about 1 postseason, you have a short memory.
Lets also not forget how close the Ravens were to being outed by the Broncos and Patriots this season.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 03-02-2013, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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Lets also not forget how close the Ravens were to being outed by the Broncos and Patriots this season.
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Old 03-02-2013, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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If we are going to sit here and talk about almosts as a positive it means you must use it the other way as well.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 03-02-2013, 08:51 PM    (permalink
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Joe Flacco wasn't paid because of what he did in the 2012 regular season. He was paid because of what he did in the postseason.
People became horribly blind to any negative about Flacco after that post-season. It's hilarious. He's not suddenly not going to be a one-trick pony QB (CHUCK IT DEEP! Oppan Grossman Style!)
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:03 PM    (permalink
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Has he now? Let us examine the evidence.

2012 Joe Flacco
14th in yards
14th in attempts
33.2 Att/G Average 32.8
15th in Competions
23rd in Completion %
Completion% 59.9 League average 61.09
16th in yards per game
238.6 Y/G for Flacco League Average 233
13th in yards per attempt
Flacco 7.2 League Average 7.1
17th in Touchdowns
Joe Flacco 22 TDs League Average 20.6
7th least in interceptions (of those QBs that started 16 games)
7th in Att/INT
Flacco has 53.1 League Average 42.71

League average is for all QBs who have more than 210 Attempts

Maybe that was a down year lets check 2011

2011 Joe Flacco
13th in Completions
10th in Attempts
12th in Yards
23rd in Yards/Att
6.7 for Falcco 8.2 for the League Average
19th in Yar/G
206.1 for Flacco 237 League Average
13th in TDs
18th in INTs
9th in ATT/INT
Joe Flacco 45.1 League Average 39.4
24th in ATT/TD
29.1 for Flacco 22.7 League Average
Using out of context statistics doesn't prove anything though. His numbers aren't fantasy football-like, but he's made plays when it mattered most. Steve McNair and Troy Aikman didn't have circus numbers, but were still good players because of making plays when it mattered most.
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Old 03-02-2013, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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Using out of context statistics doesn't prove anything though. His numbers aren't fantasy football-like, but he's made plays when it mattered most. Steve McNair and Troy Aikman didn't have circus numbers, but were still good players because of making plays when it mattered most.
So put them in context. My stats are used to show that on a game in and game out level during the regular season he was average in attempts (which tells me how much the team relies on Flacco) Yards/Att ( the output of the plays the tell him to throw) TDs (the scoring part) and just about any stat I can think of outside of interceptions. So please tell me why these stats don't tell me exactly what I say they do
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 03-03-2013, 04:34 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brothgar View Post
So put them in context. My stats are used to show that on a game in and game out level during the regular season he was average in attempts (which tells me how much the team relies on Flacco) Yards/Att ( the output of the plays the tell him to throw) TDs (the scoring part) and just about any stat I can think of outside of interceptions. So please tell me why these stats don't tell me exactly what I say they do
Why would I do that? I'm not basing my point primarily on statistical performance. Because there are more variables involved. I already gave you two examples of great quarterbacks didn't dominate through the air and win passing title year after year and had "average" numbers at times. One is in the Hall of Fame. Joe Flacco just helped the Ravens win a Super Bowl and was named MVP of the game. That should be enough context right there. The amount of throws he did or didn't make is irrelevant. Could be a staple of their offense. Colin Kaepernick isn't asked to pass the ball a ton of times. His first and only 300 passing game was in the Super Bowl. The 49ers are a run-first offense. Doesn't mean he's an average quarterback or that the 49ers don't rely on him to make plays. John Elway's career passer rating is below 80 while Steve Young's is above 95. Didn't mean one was clearly average the other one wasn't. Both were great. Jon Kitna passed for 4000 yards in 2007 with the Lions. They ranked 4th in attempts. Detroit "relied" on Kitna to get the job done. That didn't do anything for them. Flacco helped the Ravens win games and they weren't winning in spite of him, but because of him. And in the end that is all that is important. Flacco was great when he had to be and it's not surprising that the Ravens have won a game every single year with him under center and they finally won a Super Bowl after 5 years. Who gives a **** if he doesn't have Drew Brees numbers? He's helping the Ravens win big games every single year and now they have another Super Bowl. Is Tony Romo bringing a Lombardi trophy home is he's on the Ravens with his year in and year out better than average numbers?
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 03-03-2013, 07:29 AM    (permalink
Monomach
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Matt Stafford 6.8 YPA
Joe Flacco 7.2 YPA

Matt Stafford 2.7 TD%
Joe Flacco 4.1 TD%

Matt Stafford 2.3 INT%
Joe Flacco 1.9 INT%

Matt Stafford 79.8 PR
Joe Flacco 87.7 PR

Matt Stafford 3 GW Drive
Joe Flacco 4 GW Drive

Matt Stafford 94 Rate+
Joe Flacco 104 Rate+

...and Stafford's line was much better in pass blocking.

Brothgar...dude...Matt Stafford is going to sign a huge contract soon. This stuff is going to come back to haunt you, lol. Might be time to let it die.
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Old 03-03-2013, 09:45 AM    (permalink
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Matt Stafford 6.8 YPA
Joe Flacco 7.2 YPA

Matt Stafford 2.7 TD%
Joe Flacco 4.1 TD%

Matt Stafford 2.3 INT%
Joe Flacco 1.9 INT%

Matt Stafford 79.8 PR
Joe Flacco 87.7 PR

Matt Stafford 3 GW Drive
Joe Flacco 4 GW Drive

Matt Stafford 94 Rate+
Joe Flacco 104 Rate+

...and Stafford's line was much better in pass blocking.

Brothgar...dude...Matt Stafford is going to sign a huge contract soon. This stuff is going to come back to haunt you, lol. Might be time to let it die.
Lol. Though I wouldnt be surprised to see stafford take a bit less since he cashed in on day one.
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Old 03-03-2013, 09:51 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Monomach View Post
Matt Stafford 6.8 YPA
Joe Flacco 7.2 YPA

Matt Stafford 2.7 TD%
Joe Flacco 4.1 TD%

Matt Stafford 2.3 INT%
Joe Flacco 1.9 INT%

Matt Stafford 79.8 PR
Joe Flacco 87.7 PR

Matt Stafford 3 GW Drive
Joe Flacco 4 GW Drive

Matt Stafford 94 Rate+
Joe Flacco 104 Rate+

...and Stafford's line was much better in pass blocking.

Brothgar...dude...Matt Stafford is going to sign a huge contract soon. This stuff is going to come back to haunt you, lol. Might be time to let it die.
Yeah and if he signed a contract that was the highest paid in the NFL this year I'd be pissed. But instead he restructured for less money. Also he is on a team that asks him to do much more than Flacco and nearly eclipsed 5000 yards for the second season in a row.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 03-03-2013, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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Why would I do that? I'm not basing my point primarily on statistical performance.
Why would you put them in context? Because I challenged your point?

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Originally Posted by Ness View Post
Because there are more variables involved. I already gave you two examples of great quarterbacks didn't dominate through the air and win passing title year after year and had "average" numbers at times. One is in the Hall of Fame.
Firstly, neither the hall of fame Aikman nor Steve McNair were ever the highest paid player in history. The argument isn't is Joe Flacco a decent QB it is that he got grossly overpaid. The fact you had to go as far back as the 90s to find good QBs with statistically average performances speaks more to my point than against it.

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Joe Flacco just helped the Ravens win a Super Bowl and was named MVP of the game. That should be enough context right there. The amount of throws he did or didn't make is irrelevant. Could be a staple of their offense.
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Colin Kaepernick isn't asked to pass the ball a ton of times. His first and only 300 passing game was in the Super Bowl. The 49ers are a run-first offense. Doesn't mean he's an average quarterback or that the 49ers don't rely on him to make plays.
Colin Kaepernick did more than just throw the ball. He accounted for a good amount of running as well. Something I'm sure Joe Flacco didn't do.

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John Elway's career passer rating is below 80 while Steve Young's is above 95. Didn't mean one was clearly average the other one wasn't.
You are now talking about pre salary cap football the 49ers of that era were similar to the Yankees.

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Both were great. Jon Kitna passed for 4000 yards in 2007 with the Lions. They ranked 4th in attempts. Detroit "relied" on Kitna to get the job done. That didn't do anything for them.
And if I only used attempts and yards as my evidence you would have a great point but I didn't. He was also well below the average in starting QB completion % and 15th in yards per attempt. 15th in TDs. The Lions did have a better record than they had in years in that season but that is irrelevant. Many would have said for that one season Jon Kitna was an above average QB.


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Flacco helped the Ravens win games and they weren't winning in spite of him, but because of him. And in the end that is all that is important. Flacco was great when he had to be and it's not surprising that the Ravens have won a game every single year with him under center and they finally won a Super Bowl after 5 years. Who gives a **** if he doesn't have Drew Brees numbers? He's helping the Ravens win big games every single year and now they have another Super Bowl. Is Tony Romo bringing a Lombardi trophy home is he's on the Ravens with his year in and year out better than average numbers?
If he wants to be paid like Drew Brees then he should contribute and produce like Drew Brees. As for Romo I say meh I don't know if he wasn't already damaged goods then I wouldn't have a problem saying yes.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 03-03-2013, 05:53 PM    (permalink
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Why would you put them in context? Because I challenged your point?
No, I said why would I put your out of context statistical "analysis" in context when I'm not the one pushing that point? That doesn't make sense. My angle isn't based just on the numbers game, because that also wouldn't make sense.


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Originally Posted by Brothgar View Post
Firstly, neither the hall of fame Aikman nor Steve McNair were ever the highest paid player in history. The argument isn't is Joe Flacco a decent QB it is that he got grossly overpaid. The fact you had to go as far back as the 90s to find good QBs with statistically average performances speaks more to my point than against it.
No, you're wrong. Aikman was the highest paid NFL player in the history of the league at one point in time when he signed a mega deal in 1993.

Quote:
IRVING, Tex. Troy Aikman became the richest player in NFL history, agreeing Thursday to a $50 million, eight-year contract with the Dallas Cowboys.

Aikman, a 27-year-old quarterback, will receive an $11 million signing bonus and salaries ranging from $1.75 million in 1994 to $7.5 million in 2000. Leigh Steinberg, his agent, said Aikman is the first NFL player signed through the rest of the decade.
http://articles.latimes.com/1993-12-...dallas-cowboys

And both McNair and Aikman weren't free agents after a Super Bowl victory. Flacco hit the jackpot at the exact time he needed to. Every situation is different. And the time frame is irrelevant. The entire argument has to do with market value perception for a player amongst their peers. Doesn't matter if it was the 1990s or 2000s. If still want to be that picky Michael Vick had that label of being the highest paid in NFL history when he signed a mega deal in 2004. His passing numbers have always been decent to average and he was never the best quarterback in the NFL.


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Originally Posted by Brothgar View Post
Colin Kaepernick did more than just throw the ball. He accounted for a good amount of running as well. Something I'm sure Joe Flacco didn't do.
And he also made plays when it mattered. Something Flacco did do.


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Originally Posted by Brothgar View Post
You are now talking about pre salary cap football the 49ers of that era were similar to the Yankees.
Not really. The salary cap started in 1994, when the majority of both players best success started to occur. The 49ers also had had one of the lowest pay rolls in the league in the 1980's if you want to take that angle. Especially during their first Super Bowl. San Francisco didn't continuously pay big name free agents to come to the team. The only one that comes to memory is Deion Sanders. Maybe Tim McDonald or Ken Norton Jr? Wouldn't say they were that high profile though. But before that guys like Tom Rathman, Ronnie Lott, Joe Montana, Steve Young, Jerry Rice, Charles Haley, Brent Jones, Steve Wallace, Harris Barton, John Taylor, or Merton Hanks were all acquired through the draft or through trade. San Francisco didn't just splurge into the open free agent market to get their talent.


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Originally Posted by Brothgar View Post
And if I only used attempts and yards as my evidence you would have a great point but I didn't. He was also well below the average in starting QB completion % and 15th in yards per attempt. 15th in TDs. The Lions did have a better record than they had in years in that season but that is irrelevant. Many would have said for that one season Jon Kitna was an above average QB.
And despite this, Flacco has made plays when it matters most. Like I said earlier you don't need to have fantasy football numbers to perform at a high level. You need to look beyond what is on paper. And Jon Kitna was an above average quarterback in 2007? You're joking. All he did was throw the ball a ton of times. Especially since the Lions were behind a lot. Mike Furrey caught a ton of balls went over 1000 yards receiving the previous year with Kitna also topping 4000 yards. Doesn't mean they were good. The Lions finished 3-13 in 2006. Making plays when it matters most trumps having God-like stats with little to no substance to them.

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If he wants to be paid like Drew Brees then he should contribute and produce like Drew Brees. As for Romo I say meh I don't know if he wasn't already damaged goods then I wouldn't have a problem saying yes.
Well if the Ravens wanted to take that logic and roll with it they could have. But since Flacco is a free agent and just won Super Bowl MVP honors, they'll probably bow down to his demands and take their chances instead of going back to the days of Chris Redman, Kyle Boller, or Anthony Wright. Maybe their cap situation would be better, but they wouldn't win very many games.

And Romo damaged goods? Since when? Romo has been a big game choker since he was first named starter for Dallas in 2006.
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:02 PM    (permalink
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I'm not going point by point because we seem to be going in circles. But all I'll say is we will see what happens I'm not saying the Ravens aren't a playoff team but without masterful drafting by Ozzie I don't see the Ravens going deep into the playoffs. My stats aren't simply fantasy football numbers most of what I used have no place in fantasy football. But we'll see what happens I'm not saying that this will cause the Ravens to be a perennial loser but without real production from the incoming rookies I don't see the Ravens continuing to go deep in the playoffs.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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