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Old 03-03-2013, 11:52 PM    (permalink
mightytitan9
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I agree Bobo, Hill looks like a Titans mid-round selection. To be honest, I think I'd almost rather build the interior of our D-Line on those type of picks.

I know the difference a guy like Fat Al could make in the middle, but to me the difference a star DE makes is greater. I think Martin and Casey is going to be a great duo, so we really only need depth. I'd be fine with taking a DT high, but I just think we could have major difference makers elsewhere.

Also, I know most people here aren't fans of Moore. Does that change if he's there in the 2nd or not?
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:19 AM    (permalink
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I agree Bobo, Hill looks like a Titans mid-round selection. To be honest, I think I'd almost rather build the interior of our D-Line on those type of picks.

I know the difference a guy like Fat Al could make in the middle, but to me the difference a star DE makes is greater. I think Martin and Casey is going to be a great duo, so we really only need depth. I'd be fine with taking a DT high, but I just think we could have major difference makers elsewhere.

Also, I know most people here aren't fans of Moore. Does that change if he's there in the 2nd or not?
See, I think DT is the most impactful position on defense. That's what makes a great one so powerful. Fat Al was a one man defense for us. He made everyone around him better. He helped make KVB a Pro Bowler, got Antwan Odom a 30 mil. dollar contract after notching 8 sacks, helped make Kearse into a viable starter despite all his baggage, and the secondary had 3 Pro Bowlers with him on the line.

And if Moore is there in the 2nd, and we didn't go DE in the first, then I'd be cool with it.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:51 AM    (permalink
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I battle back and forth with that concept. When we had Kearse and Carter it didn't really matter that it was role players on the inside. The Colts with Freeney and Mathis didn't seem to matter much either.

The Jags had Henderson and Stroud, and while yes they were hard to run against, I don't know if that truly made as big of a difference as two studs on the outside would have.

Just my opinion. DTs free up the ends, but DE's help out the DTs also. It's not like we have scrubs there either, if we did I'd be all for a stud DT. But Casey is one of the best young DTs in the league and with what I saw from Mike Martin, he's going to be the exact same thing.

Can't wait for FA so I might have a clearer view of the draft
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:05 AM    (permalink
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I'd say I would typically try to go for a star DE rather than DT for one reason only - it seems easier to find star DE's. Fat Al types are truly rare. Star has shown me strength and athleticism that reminds me of Al, but he is smaller. At their best, was Al better than say Julius Peppers? Hard to say. If we are just talking draft, I guess I'd go with the D lineman I thought was the better player for DT vs DE, but maybe lean to DE a bit.

I've been kinda down on Moore, and that was before the bad combine. I do hope he redeems himself come his Pro Day. As of now, I wouldn't be upset if we took him in the 2nd. Anyone know his 10 yard time?

But guys like Hunt, Carradine, and Okafor could be there too.
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Old 03-04-2013, 01:24 AM    (permalink
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Anyone want Wallace Gillberry? I think he's a FA. I loved him at Bama. I know he's a bit slow, but the dude somehow gets it done. He's had some solid seasons, production a bit like Dave Ball. I'd want him for the rotation. Just another SEC DL the Titans have missed out on (been stuck in my head after the recent Tennessean article...Charles Johnson, Geno Atkins, Greg Hardy, etc).
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Old 03-04-2013, 10:45 AM    (permalink
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I'd say I would typically try to go for a star DE rather than DT for one reason only - it seems easier to find star DE's. Fat Al types are truly rare. Star has shown me strength and athleticism that reminds me of Al, but he is smaller. At their best, was Al better than say Julius Peppers? Hard to say. If we are just talking draft, I guess I'd go with the D lineman I thought was the better player for DT vs DE, but maybe lean to DE a bit.

I've been kinda down on Moore, and that was before the bad combine. I do hope he redeems himself come his Pro Day. As of now, I wouldn't be upset if we took him in the 2nd. Anyone know his 10 yard time?

But guys like Hunt, Carradine, and Okafor could be there too.
It just always seems to me an elite DT takes a few years to get there, is there for a year or two, and then is done. Look back at the DTs people have said are the best, most dominant players at the position over the past 10 years. Just off the top of my head, people raved about Shaun Rogers being the biggest baddest DT, same with Kris Jenkins in Carolina, Fat Al here etc. They all stopped quickly.

Moore's 10yd split was 1.69, very slow for him. I didn't watch the 40 but something had to be up, whether it was a bad start, poor technique or something. I saw the guy run a WR down from Mississippi State way down field, I know he's got some speed.

The bench press really doesn't alarm me much at all. Jevon Kearse was one of the worst benchers I've ever seen and he was a beast.

With that said, if we don't draft Ziggy in the first I want either Tank Carradine or Moore in the 2nd if they're there. I prefer Carradine though.

I really think people are watching too much film on Moore when he's playing the 3-4 or "spying" the QB. He played very well when n the 4-3 DE position from both sides

On a side note, I've been watching film on Quanterus Smith. He's a very solid player that I would be happy with drafting with our compensatory 3rd or in the 4th.

He does have a knee issue in which he injured in November, so he may have to start the season on PUP
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:48 PM    (permalink
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We should watch the other injured FSU DE as well, Brandon Jenkins. He was a terror before he got hurt. Need to know more about the status of his injury, iirc it's one that he may never fully recover 100% from.

I guess I don't so much mind drafting one o these injured guys who may need a year to get right. I'm not predicting SB this year anyway lol
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:09 PM    (permalink
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We should watch the other injured FSU DE as well, Brandon Jenkins. He was a terror before he got hurt. Need to know more about the status of his injury, iirc it's one that he may never fully recover 100% from.

I guess I don't so much mind drafting one o these injured guys who may need a year to get right. I'm not predicting SB this year anyway lol
Got him in our GM mock offseason lol. I really like what I see on tape from him, he may never truly be a 3 down DE and that's the biggest knock on him. But he's a pass rusher, and can play in rotation. At worst I think he's a pass rush specialist, best case scenario is Robert Mathis/Dwight Freeney.

The last reports I've seen are that he expects to be ready to hold a pro day prior to the draft. This will help teams analyze if he's lost any quickness or explosion to the injury.

Most of these guys I feel will be ready for the season, or may have to sit out 6 games on the PUP but right now I don't think we're needing a starter, we have those, we need depth and to build for the future. So I'm perfectly fine spending a 2nd-4th on a DE coming off injury
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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Well, we didn't tag Cook so it looks like he won't be coming back.

Start penciling in Zach Ertz to us in the 2nd round.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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Moore's 10yd split was 1.69, very slow for him. I didn't watch the 40 but something had to be up, whether it was a bad start, poor technique or something. I saw the guy run a WR down from Mississippi State way down field, I know he's got some speed.

The bench press really doesn't alarm me much at all. Jevon Kearse was one of the worst benchers I've ever seen and he was a beast.
How does the bench press not alarm you? I'd certainly hope for a good amount of strength from a DE who runs in the 4.9s. Moore put up the LEAST reps out of any DE at the combine.

Please don't compare him to Kearse. Kearse was an absolute freak, thus his nickname. The guy ran a 4.58 at the combine and in the 4.4s at his pro day, while weighing in at 262 at the combine. Moore weighed in at 250 and ran a 4.95. You cannot compare them whatsoever. Even if he had poor technique or a poor start, that time is inexcusable for a 250lb pass rusher.

Another interesting graphic about Moore:

These stats don't tell the whole story, but the fact that 44.4% of his 12.5 sacks (5.5 sacks) were coverage sacks is a bit concerning. Ansah's numbers here can kind of be ignored because his low production doesn't give a clear idea of this, plus the way he was used at BYU (a lot inside).

If we picked him in round 2, I wouldn't be horribly upset just because of his production numbers, but I'm really not in love with him as a prospect whatsoever. He never popped to me on tape and his combine just solidified it.

Sorry mighty, I don't mean this to come across as bashing you, just trying to make my case against Moore.
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Old 03-04-2013, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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Well, we didn't tag Cook so it looks like he won't be coming back.

Start penciling in Zach Ertz to us in the 2nd round.
Interesting. Cook certainly does fill role with us, but he has also had some issues. He has big time potential, but he has struggled with the playbook and isn't much of a red zone threat considering his size/athleticism. I know there was also the issue of whether he would be tagged as as a TE or a WR, which makes a huge difference money wise.

I'm actually alright with this if we have plans to use the money towards another major need position. If we could use to money to sign someone like Levitre and then snag Eifert/Ertz in the 2nd I'd actually love the move. But who knows with our FO.
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:03 PM    (permalink
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I wasn't comparing him to Kearse by any means, I was just stating don't be fooled by bench numbers. Kearse couldn't bench well.

Jared Allen only put up 13 reps with a 1.68 10yd split. Marcus Spears put up 15 @ over 300 pounds. All while Vernon Gholston went for what 37 reps?

Terrell Suggs ran a 4.84 40.

Workout numbers don't really alarm me, if you say you don't like his film thats fine i can respect that. But workout numbers are overrated.

Moore was never believed to be a "speedster" like Kearse, and I think people who don't watch him expected him to be. He ran a 4.72 on campus @ Texas A&M. I think people have always overestimated him as an athlete.

As for your link, I've been saying it for a while that he was asked to spy or read the QB a lot of his sacks did come from spying/reading, then releasing to sack the QB. That's not new information.

I'd like to see how many QB pressures he had, because there's tons of times he pressured with no sack.

He can play sides of the line, he can run the arch or make a move inside - great at running stunts.

Watch his film and it's not a guy that runs a 4.9 he runs down WRs and RBs too often for that, I don't care what his numbers are. He was 8-10 yards behind a WR at one point and ran him down and the WR was at full speed running straight. I don't know many WRs that run 5+ seconds 40. If he's there in the 2nd we'd be stupid not to take him (assuming we didn't already take a DE or Carradine is available)

Put on film of him against LSU or OU when he plays primarily all 43 DE and he's a different guy than he is at 3-4 OLB. Pay attention to what offenses he's playing, if he's playing against a mobile QB he's asked to contain, spy and read. Against a pro-style pocket passer, he's usually just asked to go get the QB.

Just my 55 cents
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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Interesting. Cook certainly does fill role with us, but he has also had some issues. He has big time potential, but he has struggled with the playbook and isn't much of a red zone threat considering his size/athleticism. I know there was also the issue of whether he would be tagged as as a TE or a WR, which makes a huge difference money wise.

I'm actually alright with this if we have plans to use the money towards another major need position. If we could use to money to sign someone like Levitre and then snag Eifert/Ertz in the 2nd I'd actually love the move. But who knows with our FO.
There's about 3-4 TEs on the market this free agency period I'd prefer to Cook in all honesty.
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:16 PM    (permalink
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This draft is deep at TE for the first 2 or 3 rounds so it shouldnt be hard to find a replacement. Cookie is a good player, but he doesn't deserve WR monies.
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:25 PM    (permalink
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This draft is deep at TE for the first 2 or 3 rounds so it shouldnt be hard to find a replacement. Cookie is a good player, but he doesn't deserve WR monies.
He really doesn't even deserve the TE franchise money lol.

He's an average TE up to this point
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:34 PM    (permalink
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Fred Davis is the only vet on the market that intrigues me. Even then, I'm not sold on him either.

Give me Ertz or Eifert at the top of round 2, or Toilolo, Rivera, or Sims at the top of the 4th.
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Old 03-04-2013, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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I like Fred Davis, Dustin Keller, Martellus Bennett and Brandon Myers.

I get tired of taking the same positions in the draft every few years
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Old 03-04-2013, 06:35 PM    (permalink
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I was really looking for Cook to take that next step this year, but he just never turned the corner. One dimensional TE's won't get paid what he's wanting, especially if that one dimension is not dominant. Good down the seam, but pathetic in the red zone, and sub-par as a blocker. He could be deadly in an established offense with a creative OC, though. Just not a great fit with us going forward, maybe.
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:55 PM    (permalink
mightytitan9
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I would still be interested in bringing him back, but he's not worth close to what he thinks he is
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:03 PM    (permalink
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As others have pointed out, Cookie is one dimensional. There's a reason a rookie DE turned TE was in there blocking a LOT instead of Cookie. Cookie never was a red zone threat, and obviously never put up 10 million dollar franchise tag stats (admittedly not all his fault). He pretty much just makes plays with speed to outrun someone, and that's about it for his receiving skills. His hands, as big as they are, didn't even meet expectations.

I'm not really upset to see him go, if the happens. I've paid a little attention to the guys out there in this draft and I think we can grab a solid dude. Our needs for a few positions are kinda close to even IMO, meaning bpa could lea us to a TE.

And it may be a good idea to see what Taylor Thompson has anyway. He can block very well and has speed. I wouldn't be upset with putting him out there for lots of snaps this year and not worrying too much about who is the #3 TE.

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Old 03-04-2013, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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On the one hand, cutting ties with Cook keeps us from having to mess around with a potentially messy arbitration situation. But, on the other hand, it adds another need this offseason when we already have several needs that have to be addressed.

Still...overall, I can understand the Titans' decision here. It was clear that Cook was very unlikely to sign a long-term contract with us; and, with his consistency issues, he wasn't worth the $6.0 million TE franchise-tag price, let alone the $10.0 million WR franchise-tag price.

There are a few good TEs available in FA -- e.g. Martellus Bennett, Dustin Keller, etc. -- and a few good TEs available in the draft, although it would likely take a 2nd Rounder to nab Eifert or Ertz and I'm not sure that's the best strategy when we have more pressing needs on the OL and on DEF.

Personally, I hope that we take a long, close look at FB/TE James Casey from the Texans. That would kill a few birds with one stone. Not only would it solve our problems at FB and TE, it would hurt the Texans in the process. Casey has the hands and route-running skills to be a legit receiving threat at TE, and he's a good enough blocker to play FB when needed. Plus, it would allow us to get both Casey and Stevens on the field together often, while allowing Taylor Thompson to be our third TE (and big-set blocking TE), while he continues to refine his route-running and receiving skills.

Just my $.02...
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Old 03-05-2013, 12:44 AM    (permalink
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Great post Mick, I too am a big fan of Casey. I think we would likely still need to grab him and another TE since Casey would play FB when one is used.

But like you said, it'd be great having him in there because he can play that H-Back role, where teams aren't sure if he's going to line up at FB or TE until just prior to the snap
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:08 AM    (permalink
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Great post Mick, I too am a big fan of Casey. I think we would likely still need to grab him and another TE since Casey would play FB when one is used.

But like you said, it'd be great having him in there because he can play that H-Back role, where teams aren't sure if he's going to line up at FB or TE until just prior to the snap
That's true. We probably would still need an additional team, even in the event that we signed James Casey.

Still...because Casey could play TE in non-FB sets and because we already have Stevens & Thompson, we could just sign a very cheap UDFA TE to be our 3rd guy on the depth chart. Such a player would be very unlikely to play much on offense but would give us depth and be a special-teams guy, which every team needs a few of.

Another option would be to keep Collin Mooney as our 3rd RB, as he can also play FB, AND sign Casey. That would give us quite a bit of flexibility, especially on our jumbo packages. We could line-up Casey in the FB spot and Stevens/Thompson in the TE spot. We could line-up both Casey and Stevens in dual-TE spots with no FB. We could line-up Mooney at RB/FB and Casey, Stevens, and Thompson as a three-TE package. Etc. etc. etc.

Basically, I'm all in favor of options and versatility, as I believe that it's an easy way to keep opposing DEFs guessing. That's why I think Casey would be a good signing, as he can definitely play that H-Back role, lining up all over the field.

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Old 03-05-2013, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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I love the Casey and Mooney idea. Didn't realize Casey was a FA, but I've always been impressed with him. Never really paid attention to his blocking though, but it's not like he's replacing a great blocker. I have seen Mooney block well, and also run well (if we wanted to use him as a battering ram). I think there's a lot of potential and flexibility there.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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I love the Casey and Mooney idea. Didn't realize Casey was a FA, but I've always been impressed with him. Never really paid attention to his blocking though, but it's not like he's replacing a great blocker. I have seen Mooney block well, and also run well (if we wanted to use him as a battering ram). I think there's a lot of potential and flexibility there.
Yeah...I'd also like to see us keep Mooney and give him a chance -- either as our FB or as our 3rd RB. He doesn't strike me as a phenomenal talent, but he seems to know how to pick up a tough 2-3 yards, which is a type of runner we need since CJ's not a great short-distance guy. Of course, we might also opt to go after a bigger, affordable veteran RB in FA -- someone like Cedric Benson, Shonn Greene, Peyton Hillis, or Rashad Jennings?

Also...while this draft isn't particularly top-heavy in talent at the RB position, there are some good mid-round values to be had, if we go that direction.
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