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Old 03-05-2013, 07:49 PM    (permalink
BallerT1215
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Originally Posted by Black Bolt View Post
Proven? Proven? Proven?

Got your proven right here. I limited to offensive talent that is currently playing in the NFL.

It's Stanford and you should be embarrassed to take such a ridiculous stance. Undeveloped talent is useless on the field. Not only did Stanford have better offensive talent overall, the talent was far more developed than the talent at FSU. Stanford had the first TE taken in the draft last year along with likely the first TE taken this year backing him up. Luck's left tackle was taken in the high second and his OG was taken in the first. Toby Gerhart was a Heisman candidate taken in the 2nd round by the Vikings. Owen Marecic was drafted in the 4th round. WR Ryan Whalen was a 6th round pick. WR Doug Balwin, WR Chris Owusu and RB Jeremy Stewart are all on NFL rosters after going undrafted. Please, give me a break, this isn't even a debate.
Did you just come at my list with Whalen, Baldwin, Owusus, and Stewart???


Oh c'mon now - don't humiliate yourself like this man. FSU has rotational offense that features close to 7-8 players on any night. In that list - I didn't even include 6'6 Senior Rodney Smith who will be drafted this year.

I didn't know we were allowed to hype 5 or 6th rnd players.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:50 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BallerT1215 View Post
You really want me to come at you? REALLY?!?! I'll make you look silly if thats what you want....

You want to do this?! I'm dead serious.

I've already made you look like a bag of ass hair, so yeah, stop chirping and produce.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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I've already made you look like a bag of ass hair, so yeah, stop chirping and produce.
You literally have me feeling embarrassed for you with the list you just came with besides their TE's.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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Chris Thompson - 91 carries for 687 yds for a 7.5 YPC and 5 TDS before tearing his ACL vs Miami.

Devonta Freeman - 111 for 660 yds 8 TDS

James Wilder 110 for 635 and 11 TDS!..

You want me to friking continue just based off the RB's ?????????
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:54 PM    (permalink
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It's Stanford and you should be embarrassed to take such a ridiculous stance. Undeveloped talent is useless on the field. Not only did Stanford have better offensive talent overall, the talent was far more developed than the talent at FSU. Stanford had the first TE taken in the draft last year along with likely the first TE taken this year backing him up. Luck's left tackle was taken in the high second and his OG was taken in the first. Toby Gerhart was a Heisman candidate taken in the 2nd round by the Vikings. Owen Marecic was drafted in the 4th round. WR Ryan Whalen was a 6th round pick. WR Doug Balwin, WR Chris Owusu and RB Jeremy Stewart are all on NFL rosters after going undrafted. Please, give me a break, this isn't even a debate.
If you're basing your argument based on where people were drafted and if they will make an NFL roster, then it is very much a debate, and one you will probably lose.

Yes Andrew Luck is awesome, but Martin was awful last year for us, DeCastro was out with an ACL injury, Gerhart is terrible and did you really just mention Owen Marecic to win an argument? Good list fella.

E.J. Manuel will be a second round pick.

Zebrie Sanders and Andrew Datko, Manuel's bookend tackles were drafted in the 5th and 7th rounds last year, respectively.

Sophomore TE Nick O'Leary will be at least a 2nd round pick, ask around.

RT Menelik Watson, FSU's right tackle this season will be a 1st rounder.

Sophomore WR's Rashad Greene and Kelvin Benjamin are at worst 2nd rounders for 2014.

James Wilder Jr, FSU's starting RB this season will, in all likelihood be the top running back available for 2014. The backup running back Devonta Freeman is probably a second or 3rd day pick at worst.

Players like Dent and Thompson will no doubt be on NFL rosters, and better players than guys like Owusu and whoever the hell else you mentioned.


As a Miami fan, I hate to say these things, but FSU's talent has been ridiculous in recent years. Thank God the coaches have no idea what they're doing. :)
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:55 PM    (permalink
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Did you just come at my list with Whalen, Baldwin, Owusus, and Stewart???


Oh c'mon now - don't humiliate yourself like this man. FSU has rotational offense that features close to 7-8 players on any night. In that list - I didn't even include 6'6 Senior Rodney Smith who will be drafted this year.

I didn't know we were allowed to hype 5 or 6th rnd players.
LOL!!! So you go straight to the back end of the talent I listed and planted your flag there?? If you had any sense, you would realize that the undrafted players that made NFL rosters is indicative of just how much talent was on Luck's Standford teams.

He's a clue, how about you start with the THREE other Stanford players on offense taken in the top 35 of the draft???
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:55 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BallerT1215 View Post
Did you just come at my list with Whalen, Baldwin, Owusus, and Stewart???


Oh c'mon now - don't humiliate yourself like this man. FSU has rotational offense that features close to 7-8 players on any night. In that list - I didn't even include 6'6 Senior Rodney Smith who will be drafted this year.

I didn't know we were allowed to hype 5 or 6th rnd players.
Wasn't Baldwin a leading rookie receiver for a good part of his first NFL season? Until he got hurt. Owusu was extremely highly rated prior to his concussion shutdown. He had some of the best combine numbers of any receiver and is as smart as they come.
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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LOL!!! So you go straight to the back end of the talent I listed and planted your flag there?? If you had any sense, you would realize that the undrafted players that made NFL rosters is indicative of just how much talent was on Luck's Standford teams.

He's a clue, how about you start with the THREE other Stanford players on offense taken in the top 35 of the draft???
Chris Thompson - 91 carries for 687 yds for a 7.5 YPC and 5 TDS before tearing his ACL vs Miami.

Devonta Freeman - 111 for 660 yds 8 TDS

James Wilder 110 for 635 and 11 TDS!..


TELL ME TO CONTINUE PLEASE!!!

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Old 03-05-2013, 07:59 PM    (permalink
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LOL!!! So you go straight to the back end of the talent I listed and planted your flag there?? If you had any sense, you would realize that the undrafted players that made NFL rosters is indicative of just how much talent was on Luck's Standford teams.

He's a clue, how about you start with the THREE other Stanford players on offense taken in the top 35 of the draft???

Yea, Fleener, DeCastro and Martin looked terrific this year...
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Black Bolt View Post
Proven? Proven? Proven?

Got your proven right here. I limited to offensive talent that is currently playing in the NFL.

It's Stanford and you should be embarrassed to take such a ridiculous stance. Undeveloped talent is useless on the field. Not only did Stanford have better offensive talent overall, the talent was far more developed than the talent at FSU. Stanford had the first TE taken in the draft last year along with likely the first TE taken this year backing him up. Luck's left tackle was taken in the high second and his OG was taken in the first. Toby Gerhart was a Heisman candidate taken in the 2nd round by the Vikings. Owen Marecic was drafted in the 4th round. WR Ryan Whalen was a 6th round pick. WR Doug Balwin, WR Chris Owusu and RB Jeremy Stewart are all on NFL rosters after going undrafted. Please, give me a break, this isn't even a debate.
Menelik Watson will probably be drafted in the 2nd and they have another tackle that will be a mid round pick. Lets not even address the ridiculous amount of talent he had helping him on the other side of the ball.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:00 PM    (permalink
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Right now I don't know which guy I like more he's lumped in with that second group of Nassib, Wilson and Manuel
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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If you're basing your argument based on where people were drafted and if they will make an NFL roster, then it is very much a debate, and one you will probably lose.

Yes Andrew Luck is awesome, but Martin was awful last year for us, DeCastro was out with an ACL injury, Gerhart is terrible and did you really just mention Owen Marecic to win an argument? Good list fella.

E.J. Manuel will be a second round pick.

Zebrie Sanders and Andrew Datko, Manuel's bookend tackles were drafted in the 5th and 7th rounds last year, respectively.

Sophomore TE Nick O'Leary will be at least a 2nd round pick, ask around.

RT Menelik Watson, FSU's right tackle this season will be a 1st rounder.

Sophomore WR's Rashad Greene and Kelvin Benjamin are at worst 2nd rounders for 2014.

James Wilder Jr, FSU's starting RB this season will, in all likelihood be the top running back available for 2014. The backup running back Devonta Freeman is probably a second or 3rd day pick at worst.


As a Miami fan, I hate to say these things, but FSU's talent has been ridiculous in recent years. Thank God the coaches have no idea what they're doing. :)
So in a nutshell, the Stanford offensive talent knocks the FSU offensive talent out of the ball park like a said. You are so desperate you are trying to discredit a player in the NFL that started and will likely replace the former #1 pick in the draft at his position, Jake Long. And what the HELL does Decastro's ACL injury have to do with how talented he was in college???

Funny, I failed to see all the receiving threats that were drafted to the NFL from FSU. You probably forget to list them, so I'll wait.

...waiting...

...a few more minutes....

...ah, come on!

The reason you haven't listed anyone is because THERE ARE NONE! And no, Manuel never played with Snoop Minnis.

See, this is what happens when keeping it real goes to far. The only way you make me look bad is by making me look like a bully.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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So in a nutshell, the Stanford offensive talent knocks the FSU offensive talent out of the ball park like a said. You are so desperate you are trying to discredit a player in the NFL that started and will likely replace the former #1 pick in the draft at his position, Jake Long. And what the HELL does Decastro's ACL injury have to do with how talented he was in college???

Funny, I failed to see all the receiving threats that were drafted to the NFL from FSU. You probably forget to list them, so I'll wait.

...waiting...

...a few more minutes....

...ah, come on!

The reason you haven't listed anyone is because THERE ARE NONE! And no, Manuel never played with Snoop Minnis.

See, this is what happens when keeping it real goes to far. The only way you make me look bad is by making me look like a bully.
All the kids that I listed produced big time this past season and are all underclassmen. Majority not even eligible for the draft but they have produced the past 2 seasons with him starting. EVERY ONE OF THEM.

Everyone one of them will be in the NFL within next 2 years.
You are making yourself look like an ass.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:13 PM    (permalink
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Menelik Watson will probably be drafted in the 2nd and they have another tackle that will be a mid round pick. Lets not even address the ridiculous amount of talent he had helping him on the other side of the ball.
Really? So, how exactly does that compare to a rare first round OG and a high second round pick? How are you with numbers?? I see you don't want to touch the TE position since Luck played with TONS of receiving TE talent. Oh, and let's forget that Toby Gerhart finished 2nd in the Heisman race in Luck's first year as a starter. Think that helped him out a little?

This is a complete laugh fest, please, just stop.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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EJ Manuel very possibly could be the best QB from this draft class. Good athleticism and a good arm kinda like ben roethlisburger
I bet there is at least one team out there who thinks that. Which is all it takes.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:17 PM    (permalink
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Underclassmen and still Better than anything that Stanford has had wide receiver In recent memory.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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Really? So, how exactly does that compare to a rare first round OG and a high second round pick? How are you with numbers?? I see you don't want to touch the TE position since Luck played with TONS of receiving TE talent. Oh, and let's forget that Toby Gerhart finished 2nd in the Heisman race in Luck's first year as a starter. Think that helped him out a little?

This is a complete laugh fest, please, just stop.
The argument was over when you mentioned Chris owusu and ryan whalen
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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Really? So, how exactly does that compare to a rare first round OG and a high second round pick? How are you with numbers?? I see you don't want to touch the TE position since Luck played with TONS of receiving TE talent. Oh, and let's forget that Toby Gerhart finished 2nd in the Heisman race in Luck's first year as a starter. Think that helped him out a little?

This is a complete laugh fest, please, just stop.
How am I with numbers? Lucks final season 37 touchdowns, Manuel 23 that is just a start. Touch the tight end position? Fleener has yet to prove he isn't a product of Luck in college yet. As a colts fan he was very meh this year and didnt do anything to spectacular. Why is what Gerhart did in Lucks first year as a starter relevant? You seem to want to neglect all the draftable talent FSU has on defense think that helped him out a little?
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:22 PM    (permalink
Abaddon
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I'd just like to point out how hilarious, and also sad, it is that so many people still don't comprehend the difference between completion % and accuracy. I cry a little every time I laugh at these people.

Completion % doesn't factor in ball placement, which is the only way to accurately assess a guy's actual accuracy throwing the football.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:22 PM    (permalink
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You just have to watch FSU play.

No one for Stanford starts for the Seminoles the last two seasons except some of their Olinemen, their TEs and the QB, obviously.

WRs and RBs are all FSU, all the way down to 3rd team on the depth chart.

FSU has ridiculous offensive skill position talent, which is why many of us are down on Manuel. The guy left several explosive offensive plays on the field in almost every game last year and in 2011.

I just don't see Manuel being anything more than at best an average NFL starter.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:56 PM    (permalink
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You just have to watch FSU play.

No one for Stanford starts for the Seminoles the last two seasons except some of their Olinemen, their TEs and the QB, obviously.

WRs and RBs are all FSU, all the way down to 3rd team on the depth chart.

FSU has ridiculous offensive skill position talent, which is why many of us are down on Manuel. The guy left several explosive offensive plays on the field in almost every game last year and in 2011.

I just don't see Manuel being anything more than at best an average NFL starter.
Yeah, I'm starting to get the feeling this black bolt guy has never watched an FSU game or highlight during Manuel's tenure there as starting QB. The talent on offense is ridiculous. And I agree about the defensive help, but he only wanted to talk about the supporting cast on offense. If we went into any defensive discussion here, he'd get laughed out of the room, since FSU has mainly been a defensive team and recruits on that side of the ball much better than they do on offense. As you can tell with three first round caliber defensive ends on the same team (Jenkins, Werner, Carradine) as well as Xavier Rhodes in the secondary, Nigel Bradham at linebacker (3rd round pick in 12) and Timmy Jernigan at DT (Possible top 10 pick in 2014).

And yes, Manuel has underperformed at times. But honestly, I blame it more on the coaches and playcalling than anything. I think Manuel could be an outstanding QB option for a read option team in the way that the Niners used Kaepernick this season.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:57 PM    (permalink
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All the kids that I listed produced big time this past season and are all underclassmen. Majority not even eligible for the draft but they have produced the past 2 seasons with him starting. EVERY ONE OF THEM.

Everyone one of them will be in the NFL within next 2 years.
You are making yourself look like an ass.
LOL, so, a bunch of no name youngsters are > than the NFL players I just listed for you. I'll tell you what, I have a master's in special education and I understand that some people learn differently than others. Let me reintroduce actual evidence of talent vs. your list of theoretical and fictitious talent and tell me how they stack up.

RB Toby Gerhart, drafted in the second round, Heisman trophy runner up
OT Jonathan Martin, drafted near the top of the second round, same year as Luck
OG David DeCastro, drafted in the 1st round, same year as Luck
TE Coby Fleener, drafted in the 2nd round, same year as Luck
WR Chris Owusu, undrafted, on the Bucs, fell due to injury
TE Conrad Reuland, undrafted, on the Jets
TE Zack Ertz, will be drafted in the 1st or second round this April
TE Levine Toilolo, will be drafted in the mid rounds this April
WR Doug Baldwin, undrafted, on the Seahawks, became the first undrafted WR to lead his team in receptions in history
FB Owen Marecic, drafted in the 4th round by the Browns
TE Jim Dray, drafted in the 7th round by the Cardinals
RB Jeremy Stewart, undrafted, on the Raiders
WR Ryan Whalen, drafted in the 6th round by the Cardinals

The few NFL offensive players you mentioned played with Manuel contain no receivers or TE. None of them were close to being the Heisman runner up. None of the lineman even come close to the talent of Martin and DeCastro. And don't give me Watson who played one year after playing basketball in Europe who was rated about a 5th rounder at the end of this past college season. And in your mind, you kicked my arse in the debate?

My man, either you are delusional or you are being disgraceful in the face of defeat, but I refuse to believe you could be so flat out dumb to actually believe that E.J. Manuel played with more offensive talent than Andrew Luck. In fact, I know you know you were wrong being that you are now trying to change the argument toward who had more defensive talent. Although I won't be engaging in another debate with you on this topic, be sure you look up the names Shane Skov, Chase Thomas, Sione Fua and Richard Sherman.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:01 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, I'm starting to get the feeling this black bolt guy has never watched an FSU game or highlight during Manuel's tenure there as starting QB. The talent on offense is ridiculous.

And yes, Manuel has underperformed at times. But honestly, I blame it more on the coaches and playcalling than anything. I think Manuel could be an outstanding QB option for a read option team in the way that the Niners used Kaepernick this season.
Wrong again genius, not only did I watch Manuel in college, I watched him in high school. I've also seen him play in person. Still waiting for your provide a list of NFL targets who threw to to match Luck having the #1 rated TE two years running three WRs on NFL rosters. I won't mention Gerhart this time.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Black Bolt View Post
LOL, so, a bunch of no name youngsters are > than the NFL players I just listed for you. I'll tell you what, I have a master's in special education and I understand that some people learn differently than others. Let me reintroduce actual evidence of talent vs. your list of theoretical and fictitious talent and tell me how they stack up.

RB Toby Gerhart, drafted in the second round, Heisman trophy runner up
OT Jonathan Martin, drafted near the top of the second round, same year as Luck
OG David DeCastro, drafted in the 1st round, same year as Luck
TE Coby Fleener, drafted in the 2nd round, same year as Luck
WR Chris Owusu, undrafted, on the Bucs, fell due to injury
TE Conrad Reuland, undrafted, on the Jets
TE Zack Ertz, will be drafted in the 1st or second round this April
TE Levine Toilolo, will be drafted in the mid rounds this April
WR Doug Baldwin, undrafted, on the Seahawks, became the first undrafted WR to lead his team in receptions in history
FB Owen Marecic, drafted in the 4th round by the Browns
TE Jim Dray, drafted in the 7th round by the Cardinals
RB Jeremy Stewart, undrafted, on the Raiders
WR Ryan Whalen, drafted in the 6th round by the Cardinals

The few NFL offensive players you mentioned played with Manuel contain no receivers or TE. None of them were close to being the Heisman runner up. None of the lineman even come close to the talent of Martin and DeCastro. And don't give me Watson who played one year after playing basketball in Europe who was rated about a 5th rounder at the end of this past college season. And in your mind, you kicked my arse in the debate?

My man, either you are delusional or you are being disgraceful in the face of defeat, but I refuse to believe you could be so flat out dumb to actually believe that E.J. Manuel played with more offensive talent than Andrew Luck. In fact, I know you know you were wrong being that you are now trying to change the argument toward who had more defensive talent. Although I won't be engaging in another debate with you on this topic, be sure you look up the names Shane Skov, Chase Thomas, Sione Fua and Richard Sherman.
OMG, SIONE FUA!!!! GOD DAMNIT!!! You win.
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Old 03-05-2013, 09:10 PM    (permalink
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How am I with numbers? Lucks final season 37 touchdowns, Manuel 23 that is just a start. Touch the tight end position? Fleener has yet to prove he isn't a product of Luck in college yet. As a colts fan he was very meh this year and didnt do anything to spectacular. Why is what Gerhart did in Lucks first year as a starter relevant? You seem to want to neglect all the draftable talent FSU has on defense think that helped him out a little?
Oh, so now you want to talk DEFENSIVE talent? That's a nice, bright white flag you have there, where'd you get it? The last time I checked, Stanford had very good defensive talent as well. Think it helped when Virginia Tech couldn't move the ball on Stanford in the bowl game?

First off, why the hell would you bring up Luck's superior TD count in discussion about how much offensive talent he played with? I mean, thanks for helping my side of the argument. Are you really this dense? Once again, the guy had the #1 TE in the country and his back up was the next year's #1 TE. Do you really want to argue that they weren't that good? And why is the fact that Gerhart played with Luck relevant? Ah, because it is? Hello, a reliable running game makes the QBs job easier on every level of football. If you didn't know that, then you shouldn't be talking about football.
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