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Old 03-05-2013, 03:17 PM    (permalink
Forenci
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The problem is it makes sustaining success ALMOST impossible. Rarely do you get a team like the Giants or Patriots. Even our success can be mixed. Playoffs missed out on some years, Super Bowls won others, etc. Very up and down.

It's easy for teams like us to sustain success when you have an amazing GM. However, for teams like the Chiefs, Jags, etc. who, more often than not, miss the playoffs and have poor years it can pretty much doom you to years and years of endless failure.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by BigBlueNorwegian View Post
I can agree with the undervalued list, and with Canty and CWeb being overvalued, but I disagree with Rolle being so overvalued. I feel he gets too much of the blame for our bad plays in the secondary. Plus, that list only relates to the play on the field, and does not take into account off the field value . In that regard, I feel Rolle is perhaps the most important Giants player.
He is the real leader of our defense.
I think Rolle is a little over priced

Rolle's 2013 salary cap number is $9.25m ($7m base salary, $2m signing bonus, 250k other bonus)

The Buffalo Bills put the non-exclusive franchise tag on safety Jairus Byrd, which cost them $6.916m

Is Rolle worth $2.3m more than Byrd and the franchise tag?


I have no problem with Rolle having a similar cap number to Byrd, but I do think he is currently over priced. His contract is one of several we have where the players are a little over priced.

If we were to cut Rolle now, we save $5m but we still need someone to replace him. I think he is in a similar situation as Snee and Baas ie not quite playing up to the level of his contract but still a valuable player.

With the flat salary caps, we will see some adjustment in the nature of contracts overall I expect.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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The problem is it makes sustaining success ALMOST impossible. Rarely do you get a team like the Giants or Patriots. Even our success can be mixed. Playoffs missed out on some years, Super Bowls won others, etc. Very up and down.

It's easy for teams like us to sustain success when you have an amazing GM. However, for teams like the Chiefs, Jags, etc. who, more often than not, miss the playoffs and have poor years it can pretty much doom you to years and years of endless failure.
Yeah, sustaining success is VERY hard to do. I said it before to friends and my dad, but the era of dynasties is over. No more putting the roster on autopilot and cruising to SBs.

Now back to back super bowls, is a hard thing. You just need to keep at it. Draft well, sign good agents, and then have a good coach in place. If you can do that you will be fine.

Also, ownership plays a part. We have a great football owner/family. It's not like he owns 40 different businesses. Mara's business is football.
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Old 03-05-2013, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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The problem is it makes sustaining success ALMOST impossible. Rarely do you get a team like the Giants or Patriots. Even our success can be mixed. Playoffs missed out on some years, Super Bowls won others, etc. Very up and down.

It's easy for teams like us to sustain success when you have an amazing GM. However, for teams like the Chiefs, Jags, etc. who, more often than not, miss the playoffs and have poor years it can pretty much doom you to years and years of endless failure.
To have long term success, you really need to be developing rookies constantly to replace veterans who retire or leave via free agency.

Sure you try and keep your key veterans around, but have to manage the cap. What you also need to do is prioritise the key positions that you invest in (either picks or $$).

I actually think NYG does a very good job of managing the cap and building the team through the draft. I think it really helps having Coughlin's philosophy of open competition and earning the right to get onto the field.

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Old 03-05-2013, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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The other factor is that there is a lot of parity in the NFL these days, on any given day a team can beat any other team.

good roster + good coaching + good performances = chance at post season
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Old 03-05-2013, 05:10 PM    (permalink
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You guys are missing one big key though:

What hurts us, also helps us tremendously. Yes, parity punishes teams who draft well in the sense that we are often victims of losing players to FA.

But guess what? It also makes us that much more dangerous.

Why?

Bc the teams who don't draft well have to overpay for our FAs, thus hurting their cap. And bc they don't draft well they are unable to backfill their roster to the same degree as us. So the cycle continues.

Notice how the best teams in the league are the ones who draft well? That's not coincidence. FA superficially rewards teams who draft poorly, but it indirectly hurts them. Youth is always better than age, and the price of FAs are usually not worth the investment. Good teams who can draft well are able to lose those FAs and find replacements, which makes them good.

So it sucks that we lose guys, but at the same time this is the price you pay when you draft well. And it actually helps us.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:09 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, it's just the crappy thing about it is that all it takes is one or two bad drafts in 3-4 year period to really kill your team for the next 6+ years. It's so much pressure to draft well. It doesn't matter how great a GM you are, you're going to have some misses.
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Old 03-05-2013, 06:21 PM    (permalink
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Nicely said BBD

Which is why having Reese as GM with his strong scouting background is a real asset.

Coughlin is also very much involved, remember in 2003 during his year off, Coughlin was very active in the combine and scouting process.

The other side of that is that it is important to have coaching staff who are good teachers; another strength of Coughlin's team
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Old 03-05-2013, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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Yeah one of Coughlin's most overlooked traits is the fact that he used to be the GM in Jacksonville. Coughlin is very much involved in the draft process. It actually makes me wonder how much Reese benefits from that.

Bc Coughlin was a great GM in Jacksonville.
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Old 03-05-2013, 08:12 PM    (permalink
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Yeah one of Coughlin's most overlooked traits is the fact that he used to be the GM in Jacksonville. Coughlin is very much involved in the draft process. It actually makes me wonder how much Reese benefits from that.

Bc Coughlin was a great GM in Jacksonville.
I think we are really lucky to have the trio of Reese, Coughlin and Ross, they know the business of football really well.

That it not to overlook the swathe of other talented guys we have like Abrams and formerly Gettleman.
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Old 03-05-2013, 10:14 PM    (permalink
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Yeah one of Coughlin's most overlooked traits is the fact that he used to be the GM in Jacksonville. Coughlin is very much involved in the draft process. It actually makes me wonder how much Reese benefits from that.

Bc Coughlin was a great GM in Jacksonville.
Besides managing the cap.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:25 AM    (permalink
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It looks like Coughlin has consulted with college coaches on how to defend the read option.

Which college defenses have done well against the read option?

Perhaps that could give us insight into the the type of things that could be considered with our defensive makeover



Quote:
from kffl.com

New York Giants head coach Tom Coughlin said the team has reached out to college coaches about defending the read option. Coughlin would not confirm which coaches he has talked to, but just said the discussions have happened.

Read more: http://www.kffl.com/hotw/NFL?page=1#ixzz2Ml2jrKUM
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Old 03-06-2013, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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As per the thread on BBI, it would seem DD and Webster might get cut or wont be retained. That should free top money for victor Cruz.
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Old 03-06-2013, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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Or Reese can do the smart thing and tell Cruz that there is a certain limit to how much money the Giants are willing to pay him.

If he thinks he's worth more than that, then tell him to test free agency. If he signs with another team, oh well. Eli Manning won a Super Bowl without Cruz and he could easily do it again.

Every position is interchangeable on the roster save for Eli. WR is especially an interchangeable position. Cruz is a product of Manning and not the other way around.

If Cruz leaves, you just find another Cruz in the draft, or just find an impact player at another position to soak up the stats. Maybe Reese finds a beastly TE - the next Gronkowski - and Eli develops chemistry with him. Maybe Reese finds some elite defensive talent and turns the defense into the #1 unit in the NFL and Eli doesn't even NEED to put up 2011 esque numbers. Etc.
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Old 03-06-2013, 01:09 PM    (permalink
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Cruz is a product of Eli and our system, specifically at the slot Wr spot. It's not accident that our two pro bowl WRs came in the same system, at the same slot WR spot.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:39 PM    (permalink
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Cruz is a product of Eli and our system, specifically at the slot Wr spot. It's not accident that our two pro bowl WRs came in the same system, at the same slot WR spot.
I disagree. Cruz is just a great WR. He is a down field threat and a threat with the ball in his hands.

The slot position has helped him out, but he's still a fantastic player in his own right.
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Old 03-06-2013, 02:43 PM    (permalink
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Agreed with Alex here. Cruz may have a small statistical bump in our system but he'd fit in anywhere.
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Old 03-06-2013, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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I disagree. Cruz is just a great WR. He is a down field threat and a threat with the ball in his hands.

The slot position has helped him out, but he's still a fantastic player in his own right.
There may be something to that, but he made his success in the slot in our specific system. It produced 2 pro bowlers, who were different players. That alone tells me a lot. It's not like Steve Smith was Cruz lite. And yet, both guys produced and were pro bowlers.

Cruz had his shot with a hurt Nicks to show the world what he can do. I want to see him produce a career best like he did for us in another system and I will believe. Until then, he is a product of Eli and our system, FACTORED with his innate talent which makes him a perfect fit.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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There may be something to that, but he made his success in the slot in our specific system. It produced 2 pro bowlers, who were different players. That alone tells me a lot. It's not like Steve Smith was Cruz lite. And yet, both guys produced and were pro bowlers.

Cruz had his shot with a hurt Nicks to show the world what he can do. I want to see him produce a career best like he did for us in another system and I will believe. Until then, he is a product of Eli and our system, FACTORED with his innate talent which makes him a perfect fit.
I've never seen anyone come up with as many big plays in big moments than Cruz the last 2 years. It's ridiculous the knack he had for making that huge play when our backs were up against it. That has nothing to do with the system. We need to keep both.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:32 PM    (permalink
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If I had to choose btw the 2, I'm choosing Cruz.

1. Cruz is a hell of a player with or without the system. I hate using the system against him, bc all our players have a certain degree of success bc of the system. Nicks benefits from the system too. So I won't hold it against him. Cruz can play outside and inside, is an explosive talent, he's strong, can stretch the field, makes great sight adjustments. He's the total package.

Isolate the player and view his skillset vs the scheme. Yes the scheme helps him, but when you isolate his skills you see that he's the type of player who will succeed in any scheme. He has no physical limitations other than height, which ironically isn't that bad for him bc he has an incredible vertical and knows how to body up DBs.

2. Nicks simply doesn't stay healthy. Cruz does. Plus we have Randle, who I feel has a much better chance of replacing Nicks than anyone currently on the roster replacing Cruz.

I obviously want to keep both, but if I had to choose 1 over the other, I'm choosing Cruz. At least Cruz can stay healthy. You can't say that about Nicks.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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I've never seen anyone come up with as many big plays in big moments than Cruz the last 2 years. It's ridiculous the knack he had for making that huge play when our backs were up against it. That has nothing to do with the system. We need to keep both.
I agree, we need to keep both, we may not be able to. However, if the reports are accurate that we will cut DD and Webster, then perhaps it frees up money. BBD summed it up best when both players need each other and compliment each other. And it does have to do with the system specifically with the post snap reads and using his athletic ability to take it a step Steve Smith dreams of. That's all Cruz and that's why he is so much more productive than Smith will ever be.

As for Cruz, let's not minimize his drops and lack of focus. That's a knock on him and his inability to stay focused. What did he have 11 drops in each of the 2 years? That needs to get fixed on his part.

I am want to see Cruz hypothetically not for real in another system and produce the same. I doubt he does it. If he does, then more props to him. I just don't see him doing the same as a full time X.
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:43 PM    (permalink
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That's the thing. He won't have to be a full time X. The 3 WR set is pretty much a staple of every offense. And having the slot run options has become a staple of almost every offense as well. He'll get plenty of snaps in the slot wherever he goes.

And he can play the outside on 2 TE sets. I don't know if there's a single player in the league I rather have play the slot over Cruz. Maaaybe Harvin, but that's it.

Nicks doesn't offer that versatility. He's strictly a X. Which isn't a bad thing, but if we're gonna compare the 2 and pick 1 to keep, it should be factored in.
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If Nicks was not always banged up would it be a no brainer for you guys to keep him over Cruz?
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Old 03-06-2013, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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If Nicks was not always banged up would it be a no brainer for you guys to keep him over Cruz?
That's tough. Bc we don't know Nicks peak bc he's always hurt so it's so hard to say.

I'm leaning towards Cruz still bc I feel like Nicks' ability on the outside is easier to find than Cruz's ability in the slot. But it's tough to say.
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Old 03-06-2013, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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That's the thing. He won't have to be a full time X. The 3 WR set is pretty much a staple of every offense. And having the slot run options has become a staple of almost every offense as well. He'll get plenty of snaps in the slot wherever he goes.

And he can play the outside on 2 TE sets. I don't know if there's a single player in the league I rather have play the slot over Cruz. Maaaybe Harvin, but that's it.

Nicks doesn't offer that versatility. He's strictly a X. Which isn't a bad thing, but if we're gonna compare the 2 and pick 1 to keep, it should be factored in.


Maybe we will. However at his price, that might be # 1 or so money. So it depends on the team and how they use him. Now, assuming they do what you say, they need to have the same WR rules we do with respective to our system where you need a pre snap read and post snap read. That is a major plus and minus, double edge sword for our system. True, it's a pain in the nut sack to learn, but when you do learn it or learn it well, it produces 2 pro bowl WRs that are two completely different Wrs. One is a home run threat in our system, and the other is girl, who caught the ball, and fell to the ground after catching the first down. However, he was effective and productive and got into the pro bowl first.

Like I said though, I am curious to see how Cruz does in another system. I don't think he can be as productive. If he does, then good for him, I will be very happy for him. I trust our system in that regard, even though, I have grown tired of our system, it does have positives and this element is one of them. At the slot spot, if a player can master it between the ears, he will be productive. We have proved this now twice with two totally different players.
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