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Old 03-18-2013, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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Speaking of grit and determination, have these terms EVER been use to describe a brother in the history of the NFL?? I mean, take a random good pass rusher like Trent Cole. Yeah, he is explosive, strong, quick and undersized, but damn, can't he be determined and gritty as well??
James Harrison is the first to come to mind. He s gritty as hell. Just a short bulldog of a man who just drives through guys. I'd say Boldin could be described as gritty for a WR. It's not really race thing at all; some guys are and some aren't.
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Old 03-18-2013, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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That's a lot. I didn't go completely by sacks and I must admit, my memory of Schobel is a bit foggy. I get him and about 8 other "hard working" white DEs mixed up. But Vrabel absolutely has to be here. He really was a great athlete who's movement on the field was fluid. It's amazing that Pittsburg couldn't figure out how to use him!

Speaking of grit and determination, have these terms EVER been use to describe a brother in the history of the NFL?? I mean, take a random good pass rusher like Trent Cole. Yeah, he is explosive, strong, quick and undersized, but damn, can't he be determined and gritty as well??

Damn, I just read Schobel had a 38 inch vertical. Maybe he is a 5b on the list.
I assume everyone forgets about Schobel since he spent all 10 years in Buffalo.

Dude could still play - had 10 sacks in 2009 before he retired.
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Old 03-18-2013, 04:49 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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James Harrison is the first to come to mind. He s gritty as hell. Just a short bulldog of a man who just drives through guys. I'd say Boldin could be described as gritty for a WR. It's not really race thing at all; some guys are and some aren't.
Oh, there are TONS of gritty determined brothers who fit the bill. You thing a guy like Bruce Smith wasn't gritty? Chris Doleman? Trent Cole? Michael Strahan? If we made a list it would be so long it would probably freeze the site. My point is that none are ever referred to as such. From that standpoint, it is definitely a race thing.

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Old 03-18-2013, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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I assume everyone forgets about Schobel since he spent all 10 years in Buffalo.

Dude could still play - had 10 sacks in 2009 before he retired.
I think Playing if Buffalo has a lot to do with it.
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Old 03-18-2013, 06:56 PM    (permalink
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Oh, there are TONS of gritty determined brothers who fit the bill. You thing a guy like Bruce Smith wasn't gritty? Chris Doleman? Trent Cole? Michael Strahan? If we made a list it would be so long it would probably freeze the site. My point is that none are ever referred to as such. From that standpoint, it is definitely a race thing.
There's tons of stereotypes in scouting reports. Both good and bad for both sides.

White guys are slow and unathletic, but goddammit they're born leaders, smart, great work ethic, and excellent intangibles.

Black guys are athletic, and have potential and high ceilings.

You know what the difference is? If you take a deeper look at it, the stereotypes work in favor of the black athlete in sports. But those same stereotypes are prevalent outside of sports, and last time I checked it's good for you to be a born leader with great work ethic and character in any job you do. Being athletic doesn't really mean **** when I'm applying to be a manager of operations.

Such is life.
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:16 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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There's tons of stereotypes in scouting reports. Both good and bad for both sides.

White guys are slow and unathletic, but goddammit they're born leaders, smart, great work ethic, and excellent intangibles.

Black guys are athletic, and have potential and high ceilings.

You know what the difference is? If you take a deeper look at it, the stereotypes work in favor of the black athlete in sports. But those same stereotypes are prevalent outside of sports, and last time I checked it's good for you to be a born leader with great work ethic and character in any job you do. Being athletic doesn't really mean **** when I'm applying to be a manager of operations.

Such is life.
I won't argue with that as you pretty much nailed it. I forgot one- "hard nosed." In the history of football, there has never been a hard nosed black player. I believe you guys just signed a "hard nosed" MLB in free agency.

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Old 03-18-2013, 07:19 PM    (permalink
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i love stereotypes...whit dlinemen are smart, play with good leverage, are team leaders, have high motors, are relentless players. Black ones are faster, more "raw", high ceiling but hugh bust potential

white WRs are the next wes welker, hard workers, more quick than fast, run sound routes, focus on fundamentals. Black ones are faster, can jump higher, always have the higher ceiling, and always a higher bust factor

white safeties are very instinctual, understand angles, disciplined, more quick than fast, relentless special teamers, but probably stiff in coverage but not afraid to stick their nose in the run game

white QBs are....better

white cornerbacks....are a myth

white runningbacks, should play fullback

white TEs are excellent blockers.

Truth is theres a handful of very very smart people in the NFL, not just football smart but people that could really do things elsewhere even if they are an amazing football player, but most of the NFL both white and black have been very pampered spoiled athletes their whole lives and are dumb as bricks.

When i look at werner, i dont see that relentless work ethic and high motor hes supposed to have as a white guy..he reminds me of everson griffen, who was a borderline first round prospect that went in the 4th
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:25 PM    (permalink
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i love stereotypes...whit dlinemen are smart, play with good leverage, are team leaders, have high motors, are relentless players. Black ones are faster, more "raw", high ceiling but hugh bust potential

white WRs are the next wes welker, hard workers, more quick than fast, run sound routes, focus on fundamentals. Black ones are faster, can jump higher, always have the higher ceiling, and always a higher bust factor

white safeties are very instinctual, understand angles, disciplined, more quick than fast, relentless special teamers, but probably stiff in coverage but not afraid to stick their nose in the run game

white QBs are....better

white cornerbacks....are a myth

white runningbacks, should play fullback

white TEs are excellent blockers.

Truth is theres a handful of very very smart people in the NFL, not just football smart but people that could really do things elsewhere even if they are an amazing football player, but most of the NFL both white and black have been very pampered spoiled athletes their whole lives and are dumb as bricks.

When i look at werner, i dont see that relentless work ethic and high motor hes supposed to have as a white guy..he reminds me of everson griffen, who was a borderline first round prospect that went in the 4th
Ha ha, post of the year.



One of those guys who is extremely smart is Dominique Foxworth. At 29, he is the NFL Players Union President and he will be attending Harvard in the fall. Oh wait, he is a still a stereotype- Smart brother!

PS- White defensive players "aren't afraid to mix it up."

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Old 03-18-2013, 07:29 PM    (permalink
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When i look at werner, i dont see that relentless work ethic and high motor hes supposed to have as a white guy..he reminds me of everson griffen, who was a borderline first round prospect that went in the 4th
I think he has more of a motor than people are giving him credit for. To be honest, when i first saw people throwing that out about him, I thought they were nuts and nitpicking. He always was around the ball and I can honestly say I never saw him out of place, and more times than not he seemed to be the one DLineman that made the big play when we needed it.

I still am not understandinging the motor being questioned.
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Old 03-18-2013, 07:35 PM    (permalink
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I think he has more of a motor than people are giving him credit for. To be honest, when i first saw people throwing that out about him, I thought they were nuts and nitpicking. He always was around the ball and I can honestly say I never saw him out of place, and more times than not he seemed to be the one DLineman that made the big play when we needed it.

I still am not undering the motor being questioned.
I don't think HIS motor is being questioned, I think the fictitious one he was assigned is being questioned. His motor is fine, but it is NOT like a Jared Allen, a James Harrison, J.J. Watt or a Trent Cole.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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Depending on how he does tomorrow he's the closest to a Terrell Suggs.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:48 PM    (permalink
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If he's a 3-4 ROLB, why would he need to cover TE's regularly? That position blitzes/rushes the passer more often than it doesn't. You would have to be a piss-poor defensive coordinator if you're asking him to cover TE's regularly.
If there is a known weakness, like Werner's coverage ability, I think the better question is "why wouldn't he?"

If I'm an offensive coordinator and I can pinpoint a weakness, I will target that weakness. Just because a guy plays the designated "strong side" or "weak side" doesn't mean I'm going to follow any rules.

That's like an old school war, where rows of guys stood up directly across from each other and took turns shooting because they were idiots.

This NFL is modern warfare. Mismatches. Moving chess pieces. If someone is a weakness, they will continue to be exploited until they're on the bench.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:39 AM    (permalink
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If there is a known weakness, like Werner's coverage ability, I think the better question is "why wouldn't he?"

If I'm an offensive coordinator and I can pinpoint a weakness, I will target that weakness. Just because a guy plays the designated "strong side" or "weak side" doesn't mean I'm going to follow any rules.

That's like an old school war, where rows of guys stood up directly across from each other and took turns shooting because they were idiots.

This NFL is modern warfare. Mismatches. Moving chess pieces. If someone is a weakness, they will continue to be exploited until they're on the bench.
Well put. This is why I see him as a 4-3 end. If he's lining up in a 3-4, an OC knows he's a "linebacker" who won't be covering anybody. So he's going to be better schematic fit in a defense where the position he plays is pretty much never required to provide coverage. It's fine with me if some 3-4 team wants to put him in there in the strong side and blitz him all the time, but ideally you want a guy who's more versatile, whereas in the 4-3 the responsibilities of the position he'd be playing are more in line with his actual skill set.
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:14 AM    (permalink
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Name the 3-4 team who drafted a first round OLB on the ability to cover.
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:29 AM    (permalink
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Name the 3-4 team who drafted a first round OLB on the ability to cover.
Is that the defining factor? No. Is it a factor? Yes.

3-4 teams draft their OLB's to be multidimensional in that they can rush the passer, play the run, and drop back into coverage.

Although it may not be a "strength", there is a wide disparity between the ability displayed by the top 3-4 OLB's in the league and what they do dropping back compared to what I suspect Werner will be able to do.

Could you force him into a 3-4 as an OLB? Sure. Is it ideal in playing to his strengths? Not at all.

Why spend a first round pick on a square peg to plug in a round hole? You're only increases the chances the player busts.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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Bjoern Werner participated in LB drills today at Florida State's pro day.

From Emory Parker: Bjoern looking good in the linebacker drills. Turns hips well. Made some really good catches too.
https://twitter.com/EmoryParker/stat...47379194122240

From Dustin Tackett: Funny seeing Bjoern in the LB group, but he actually looks really good. Change of direction is impressive for his size.
https://twitter.com/dtackett_/status/314048946462945280

I know it's a pro day and all but I think people are underrating him as a potential 3-4 outside linebacker. He stood up on several players vs. Miami and NC State and played well. He also fell back into coverage vs Miami and didn't look lost.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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I think Werner ends up at LB, just depends who drafts him. Let him drop about 15# and I think his athleticism is more apparent.

Hugh Douglass was one of those hard nosed, gritty players who was thought to get sacks more on effort and sheer power instead of freaky athleticism.

Mike Singletary was hard nosed. Even for the 1980s he was undersized for MLB.

White TEs I think nowadays are described as athletic and not just great route runners, because the top prospects usually are elite athletes for the position.

But yeah the scouting report stereotypes are pretty much set in stone.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:42 PM    (permalink
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Bjoern Werner participated in LB drills today at Florida State's pro day.

From Emory Parker: Bjoern looking good in the linebacker drills. Turns hips well. Made some really good catches too.
https://twitter.com/EmoryParker/stat...47379194122240

From Dustin Tackett: Funny seeing Bjoern in the LB group, but he actually looks really good. Change of direction is impressive for his size.
https://twitter.com/dtackett_/status/314048946462945280

I know it's a pro day and all but I think people are underrating him as a potential 3-4 outside linebacker. He stood up on several players vs. Miami and NC State and played well. He also fell back into coverage vs Miami and didn't look lost.
sounds like he's doing his best Mike Vrabel imitation.

It never hurts to be able to adjust to both types of defenses. his stock probably sagged a little in the last month or so and expect that it might be back up by draft time.

Last edited by Babylon : 03-19-2013 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 03-19-2013, 06:58 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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sounds like he's doing his best Mike Vrabel imitation.

It never hurts to be able to adjust to both types of defenses. his stock probably sagged a little in the last month or so and expect that it might be back up by draft time.
Well good for him, but he has a long way to go do get to the level of Vrabel from a knowledge of the game standpoint.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:07 PM    (permalink
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i would have liked to see werner do some LB drills
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:16 PM    (permalink
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i would have liked to see werner do some LB drills
Supposedly he did. If he's a 3-4 olb he isn't going to make his dollars covering the flats, it'll be for getting to the QB.
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:21 PM    (permalink
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i meant actually see it, like see what he looked like doing them
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Old 03-19-2013, 08:40 PM    (permalink
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i meant actually see it, like see what he looked like doing them
You could see in the drills he has a good back pedal and can turn his hips with no problem. Great hands, really catches the ball naturally. Would not be out of the question to see him on the end of the line down at the goal line like the Pats used to use Vrabel.

My guess is he helped himself today and showed he isn't just a one trick pony.
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Old 03-19-2013, 11:38 PM    (permalink
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Supposedly he did. If he's a 3-4 olb he isn't going to make his dollars covering the flats, it'll be for getting to the QB.
Exactly. For a team like the Saints, who need to improve their pass rush, their main question should be: Can player "x" get after the QB? In Werner's case that answer is unequivocally "YES". 3-4 rushbackers are best known for getting after the QB first and foremost and that will be the main responsibility for Werner. Rush the QB and at least try to stop the run. 3rd would be falling back into coverage which he's capable of, he just doesn't excel at but which 3-4 rushbackers do?
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Old 03-20-2013, 01:12 AM    (permalink
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Exactly. For a team like the Saints, who need to improve their pass rush, their main question should be: Can player "x" get after the QB? In Werner's case that answer is unequivocally "YES". 3-4 rushbackers are best known for getting after the QB first and foremost and that will be the main responsibility for Werner. Rush the QB and at least try to stop the run. 3rd would be falling back into coverage which he's capable of, he just doesn't excel at but which 3-4 rushbackers do?
Watching how he moved around today I'm going to say he would be long gone before the 15th pick.
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