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Old 03-14-2013, 12:29 AM    (permalink
tjsunstein
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I washoping he wouldn't be cleared so he would slide draft day. I would want him inside instead of Hawk.
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Old 03-14-2013, 10:19 AM    (permalink
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I don't really think Jones is the elite talent people make him out to be. I'd be surprised if he's taken in the top 5, even in this down year at the top of the draft. I'd guess 8-10 will be where he is selected.
Who's a better pass rusher in this draft class?

Mingo? Ansah? Jordan? All of these guys are workout warriors with mediocre production in college. This type of player should not be chosen over a highly productive guy like Jones who is also athletic.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:03 AM    (permalink
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Who's a better pass rusher in this draft class?

Mingo? Ansah? Jordan? All of these guys are workout warriors with mediocre production in college. This type of player should not be chosen over a highly productive guy like Jones who is also athletic.
To be honest, I would love to see all three of those guys turned loose and allowed to just rush the passer from a two-point stance+wide alignment on every ******* down like Jarvis was allowed to do in college.

Production (*especially* raw sack numbers) lie.
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Tannehill was a better QB (than Gabbert) when he was still playing WR
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:34 AM    (permalink
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To be honest, I would love to see all three of those guys turned loose and allowed to just rush the passer from a two-point stance+wide alignment on every ******* down like Jarvis was allowed to do in college.

Production (*especially* raw sack numbers) lie.
90% of all of the top-50 sack leaders in NFL history had 17 or more sacks in college.

60% of the top-50 sack leaders in NFL history had 30 or more sacks in college.

I like those numbers alot. I'd rather go with the odds than against them, to be honest.
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Old 03-14-2013, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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I don't get the hate on him.

Last year, he was far and away the most accomplished pass rusher eliglble to come out. A lock in the top 10 and likely top 5 pick.

This season, he improved on an already impressive season. The stenosis thing seemed to sap a lot of positive momentum -- made worse by his inability to work the combine.

If game tape trumps all, then this guy is the best pass rusher in the last 2 drafts without doubt. If he's taken in the 20s, its a massive, Randy Moss/Warren Sapp type steal.

It'll come down to scheme fit. He'll need to go to a team that likes to blitz from the OLB spot.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:13 PM    (permalink
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This appears to be the Jarvis Jones thread, so I'll just put this here.

Jarvis Jones ran a 4.92 40. He isn't healthy.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:20 PM    (permalink
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This appears to be the Jarvis Jones thread, so I'll just put this here.

Jarvis Jones ran a 4.92 40. He isn't healthy.
Get the hate now?
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:19 AM    (permalink
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I always "got" the hate. I've never been a big fan of Jarvis Jones. I only became vaguely optimistic based on this theoretical clean bill of health he had, which is obviously bunk.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:36 AM    (permalink
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It's funny how people treat running a slow 40 as proof that Jarvis Jones will not be a good player.
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Old 03-22-2013, 12:55 AM    (permalink
JT Jag
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It's funny how people treat running a slow 40 as proof that Jarvis Jones will not be a good player.
Well, there are also the chronic injury concerns.

Really, it's the multitude of red flags that make the likelihood that he will be a good player decrease. Could he be a good player? Maybe. But that possibility lowers with each bit of bad news that comes out about him.
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Old 03-22-2013, 01:10 AM    (permalink
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How about the absolutely terrible jump numbers as well? 9'3" broad and 30.5 inch vertical are absolutely horrible from a guy who is supposed to be playing an explosive position.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:02 AM    (permalink
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But he just wins is just a football player, guys! He's not a stat guy.
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MJD is an exception to every rule.
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Old 03-22-2013, 03:31 AM    (permalink
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was the 2nd best defensive player in the SEC, if he falls out of the top 15 someone is getting a huge steal(generally it's Pittsburgh)
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:21 AM    (permalink
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Who's a better pass rusher in this draft class?

Mingo? Ansah? Jordan? All of these guys are workout warriors with mediocre production in college. This type of player should not be chosen over a highly productive guy like Jones who is also athletic.
Keep holding on.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:26 AM    (permalink
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It's funny how people treat running a slow 40 as proof that Jarvis Jones will not be a good player.
Short broad jump, low vertical, maxed out frame at 243 pounds, played with insane defensive talent around him, was allowed many attempts to rush the passer, looked like an AARP hard holder in the cone drill. He's already been accused of not being a weightroom guy. Oh, and for some reason, he's largely gotten a pass for skipping the NFL Combine. Put them all together and you come up with a big stock down.

Could be a pretty good player in a tailor made scheme. Could be a complete bust.

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Old 03-22-2013, 08:28 AM    (permalink
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I always "got" the hate. I've never been a big fan of Jarvis Jones. I only became vaguely optimistic based on this theoretical clean bill of health he had, which is obviously bunk.
I laughed inside every time someone talked about him being worthy of the #1 pick, all 243 pounds of him.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:34 AM    (permalink
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was the 2nd best defensive player in the SEC, if he falls out of the top 15 someone is getting a huge steal(generally it's Pittsburgh)
At beast, he MIGHT be the second best defender on his team.
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Old 03-22-2013, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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I don't really think Jones is the elite talent people make him out to be. I'd be surprised if he's taken in the top 5, even in this down year at the top of the draft. I'd guess 8-10 will be where he is selected.
I think he definitely falls outside the top 15.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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I think he definitely falls outside the top 15.
I wouldn't say definitely out of the top 15. Pass rushers get pushed up in the draft and it's not like there's several prospects who don't come with question marks to their game. A team like New Orleans, with their transition to a 3-4, would probably be excited to add an outside backer like Jones.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:02 AM    (permalink
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I don't really think Jones is the elite talent people make him out to be. I'd be surprised if he's taken in the top 5, even in this down year at the top of the draft. I'd guess 8-10 will be where he is selected.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:05 AM    (permalink
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I wouldn't say definitely out of the top 15. Pass rushers get pushed up in the draft and it's not like there's several prospects who don't come with question marks to their game. A team like New Orleans, with their transition to a 3-4, would probably be excited to add an outside backer like Jones.
Well, maybe I misspoke. He is not a top 15 player. Also, I'd like to take this opportunity to formally apologize to Manti Say-Ow. I thought you were slow until two days ago.

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Old 03-22-2013, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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Who's a better pass rusher in this draft class?

Mingo? Ansah? Jordan? All of these guys are workout warriors with mediocre production in college. This type of player should not be chosen over a highly productive guy like Jones who is also athletic.
Everette Brown and Brandon Graham vs Aldon Smith, Jason Pierre-Paul, and Chandler Jones. Same type of thing. Jordan and Ansah at least are have their best football ahead of them. Heck, Ansah has only been playing football for a few years, think of how scary good he'll be once he gets more exprience.

I like Jones, but a small, slow OLB pass rusher with health ?s is not usually they type of player that succeeds in the NFL even given his production.
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Old 03-22-2013, 09:45 AM    (permalink
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Everette Brown and Brandon Graham vs Aldon Smith, Jason Pierre-Paul, and Chandler Jones. Same type of thing. Jordan and Ansah at least are have their best football ahead of them. Heck, Ansah has only been playing football for a few years, think of how scary good he'll be once he gets more exprience.

I like Jones, but a small, slow OLB pass rusher with health ?s is not usually they type of player that succeeds in the NFL even given his production.
You have to understand, the person you are talking to is agenda driven and does not listen to reason. He is resigned to one train of thought and will not consider anything outside of that thought. He believes that college production trumps all in terms of predicting pro success, and that is not the case. He's been a complete broken record on this topic.

As far as Jones, I'll say it again, he had the most sack production, but he wasn't the best defender on his team. That would be Ogletree. Bigger, faster, taller, stronger, more agile, better in coverage, more range, far greater pro potential.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:37 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by keylime_5 View Post
Everette Brown and Brandon Graham vs Aldon Smith, Jason Pierre-Paul, and Chandler Jones. Same type of thing. Jordan and Ansah at least are have their best football ahead of them. Heck, Ansah has only been playing football for a few years, think of how scary good he'll be once he gets more exprience.
It's too early to tell re: Aldon Smith, Brandon Graham, Jason Pierre Paul and Chandler Jones.

Do you know that Profootballfocus.com had Brandon Graham as their #2 rated 4-3 DE in the NFL last year? And that Graham had the highest Pass Rushing Productivity (hits/hurries/sacks PER rush) of any defensive player last year? The reason you don't think about him as a great player is because A.) he was injured in his rookie season and had to basically sit out his sophomore year and B.) this past year he had to sit behind Jason Babin and play only part-time snaps despite being the better pass rusher and C.) he played on a team that sucked the past two years whereas Jason Pierre Paul played on a Super Bowl team just a year ago.

And despite his gaudy sack total in 2011, Jason Pierre Paul has done very little as a pass rusher in his career so far. Poor sack totals his other two years (for the amount of snaps he plays), the Giants DL was awful last year, AND Profootballfocus.com rates him as only an average pass rusher based on Pass Rushing Productivity the past three years, even in 2011 despite the sack total.

I could actually see Graham having a better career in the long run than Jason Pierre Paul.

Last edited by AcheTen (Thumper) : 03-22-2013 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 03-22-2013, 10:43 AM    (permalink
keylime_5
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my point was the college production thing vs. potential doesn't really matter. Brandon Graham has like 8 career sacks. Pierre-Paul had a 16 sack season just a year ago. I think his conditioning was poor last year and he dropped off a bit. Aldon Smith's career thus far speaks for itself. He didn't have many sacks in college and is THE GUY that everyone is comparing Dion Jordan to. Ansah is just now learning the fundamentals of an NFL pass rusher, his physical talent is ridiculous, he just needs refinement/experience. Look at what he did in the senior bowl and what the coaches say about him after that game.
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