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Old 03-25-2013, 03:09 PM    (permalink
DrewyVuitton
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Yes. Yes he is.

Compare what Ware looked like his rookie year to now. It's obvious he's bigger. You pack on weight as you age.

This whole weight argument is nonsense to begin with. Jason Taylor played at 230 lbs and was just fine as a DE against the run. Ware has played in a 3 point stance and played the run well in it. Your whole argument of them failing in that role is fabricated and makes no sense at all.
Well it makes enough sense for me to point it out since the change in scheme was made and for multiple websites (bloggingthebeast/rotoworld) to write stories about it. So yeah, some people do think it has merit.

Ware is NOT bigger than Tuck and he weighs less than what he did when playing under Parcells.

These are facts. You are wrong. Your credibility on the topic is diminished.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:18 PM    (permalink
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- I think Spencer will be fine against the run. He has already battled against RT his entire career, the only difference being he will be coming out of a three point stance. Yes, he will see more combo blocks from the tightend but he is strong enough to anchor. His job is to hold ground against the line while the second and third level rally to the ball. Anything above and beyond that is gravy.

- With the recent work out with Vaccaro and the visit with Huff I actually believe chatter about running a hybrid scheme. It would be senseless to target two safeties who's best asset is the ability to turn and run in man coverage unless there was a plan to utilize that skill. I'm sure we will still see some cover 3 looks with Lee in shallow center and two safeties over the top but that won't be exclusive. I expect a good amount of press man with a cover one look (especially when teams use multiple WR sets) mixed in with underneath zone from the linebackers.

- Pass rush is going to be the key to this defense with Hatcher/Ware being the lynch pins. If the team can not find a way to create pressure with the front four it is going to be the same story from last season. Long extended drives that wear down the secondary and lead to tons of scoring. The more down and distance situations the team is in the more creative Monte can get with the blitzing and zone coverage to cause turnovers.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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We'll apparently Moore isn't even set in stone as a target

@fishsports: .@BloggingTheBoys NY media report is wrong. #Cowboys have NOT scheduled visit for OL Brandon Moore
Cowboys didn't schedule a visit for him to come to Dallas. They went to him.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:23 PM    (permalink
DrewyVuitton
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- I think Spencer will be fine against the run. He has already battled against RT his entire career, the only difference being he will be coming out of a three point stance. Yes, he will see more combo blocks from the tightend but he is strong enough to anchor. His job is to hold ground against the line while the second and third level rally to the ball. Anything above and beyond that is gravy.

- With the recent work out with Vaccaro and the visit with Huff I actually believe chatter about running a hybrid scheme. It would be senseless to target two safeties who's best asset is the ability to turn and run in man coverage unless there was a plan to utilize that skill. I'm sure we will still see some cover 3 looks with Lee in shallow center and two safeties over the top but that won't be exclusive. I expect a good amount of press man with a cover one look (especially when teams use multiple WR sets) mixed in with underneath zone from the linebackers.

- Pass rush is going to be the key to this defense with Hatcher/Ware being the lynch pins. If the team can not find a way to create pressure with the front four it is going to be the same story from last season. Long extended drives that wear down the secondary and lead to tons of scoring. The more down and distance situations the team is in the more creative Monte can get with the blitzing and zone coverage to cause turnovers.
This is the kind of rebuttle I've been waiting for. Not saying I fully agree, but it's logical. It's plausible. Nice.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Witten4HOF View Post
- I think Spencer will be fine against the run. He has already battled against RT his entire career, the only difference being he will be coming out of a three point stance. Yes, he will see more combo blocks from the tightend but he is strong enough to anchor. His job is to hold ground against the line while the second and third level rally to the ball. Anything above and beyond that is gravy.
Agreed. He has experience doing this already in nickel-sets. He will need to adjust to getting doubled by a TE but if they stack to Spencer's side his job to protect the gap and occupy the blockers. Whomever our SLB is will need to shed and tackle on the outside. Keep in mind that if teams are stacking Spencer's side to take advantage it means on play-action you are going to have DeMarcus Ware 1v1 on the left tackle. I like those odds.

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Originally Posted by Witten4HOF View Post
- With the recent work out with Vaccaro and the visit with Huff I actually believe chatter about running a hybrid scheme. It would be senseless to target two safeties who's best asset is the ability to turn and run in man coverage unless there was a plan to utilize that skill. I'm sure we will still see some cover 3 looks with Lee in shallow center and two safeties over the top but that won't be exclusive. I expect a good amount of press man with a cover one look (especially when teams use multiple WR sets) mixed in with underneath zone from the linebackers.
Agreed. I didn't buy the Cover-2 only argument from the get-go. Even within Cover-2 we'll be playing a mix of schemes with Press-Man, Press-Bail zone, and straight up zone. Kiffin ran a decent bit of Cover-1 as well so we WILL need a rangy FS to cover the deep middle.

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Originally Posted by Witten4HOF View Post
- Pass rush is going to be the key to this defense with Hatcher/Ware being the lynch pins. If the team can not find a way to create pressure with the front four it is going to be the same story from last season. Long extended drives that wear down the secondary and lead to tons of scoring. The more down and distance situations the team is in the more creative Monte can get with the blitzing and zone coverage to cause turnovers.
Agreed. If we have Ware and Hatcher with 1v1s I really like our odds. Hatcher can be a dynamic threat within our defense. He really shined last season in a very similar alignment (4-3 under vs some of our 3-4 looks). If we can get legit pressure from 4 man fronts our defense will do VERY well. If we struggle to generate pressure we will be looking at another folding-chair defense that we have become accustomed to. :(
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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I really don't know how you can say they are great fits. Both are undersized and this team will have problems stopping the run.

Does everyone remember Freeney & Mathis? A top pass rushing combo in this league for a long time. Also susceptible to having the ball rammed down their throat for an equally long time.

Pretty much the only people who think this DE combo can be successful are Cowboys fans which should tell you something.

This is going to be a small front, just like our 3-4 front was small, and it will have similar problems against the run.

Spencer is going to have a massive RT and a TE wiping him out play after play after play. He ain't built for that.
It's not just Spencer's responsibility to stop any run to the outside. Heck, if he's commanding a double team like that then our SAM LB will be unblocked. Not to mention, if that's the case then that would also open up the possibility for Hatcher or Ratliff to beat their man 1 on 1 and end up knifing through the LOS to get the TFL.

Spencer has been a good run stuffer at OLB for a long time now. It's not like beating a RT or TE is unfamiliar territory.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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I'm not sure how the LB rotation will work, or what is ideal, but I was under the impression with us having a Mike(Sean Lee) and a Will(Bruce Carter) we would be looking for a Sam and Durant is in the exact same mold as Bruce Carter. I'm not sure exactly how that would work, I would rather lose some speed there and take a guy who can take on blockers and mix it up a little more. Durant likes to be free and fly to the ball, but all our LB's now are starting to look all the same, including Ernie Sims.
Durant has been playing SLB.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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I read Huff is visiting today. What is the point if we don't have any money? I'm confused...He has a few more visits lined up after us and he probably gets signed by mid to end of the week.
Probably visiting his grandma's house and decided that he should stop by the Cowboys just to boost his stock to make it appear like there is interest in him. Players love to use the Cowboys like that. Ray Lewis/Brian Urlancher. LOL.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:48 PM    (permalink
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It's not just Spencer's responsibility to stop any run to the outside. Heck, if he's commanding a double team like that then our SAM LB will be unblocked. Not to mention, if that's the case then that would also open up the possibility for Hatcher or Ratliff to beat their man 1 on 1 and end up knifing through the LOS to get the TFL.

Spencer has been a good run stuffer at OLB for a long time now. It's not like beating a RT or TE is unfamiliar territory.
My point is these guys were basically on a 5-man line before, it's now a 4 man line.

If a team has the RT, TE, and a FB paving the way toward the strong side in a power run formation, I don't see how he can hold up over the course of the year.

I'm of the mindset that the kind of pounding you take at LDE would require someone like Crawford in there to battle.

I think Spencer will be worn down by the end of the year, I think it will take a toll on his pass rush ability, and I don't think it's an ideal position for him.

Why extend a guy into his mid 30's who will be the smallest player at his position in the league in a role he's never played in the NFL. It's just stupid.

Do I hope he can handle it? Yes, I hope Spencer is the best LDE in the league. But what do I have to support that becoming a reality? Not much. And there is no precedent set by other teams doing it. The closest I can come up with is the Colts and they got to play from ahead.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:52 PM    (permalink
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Ware is not at 270 and never has been. Listed on the official website, espn, and NFL.com at the weights I posted.
Heaviest I ever heard Ware was 265. But since we're moving to the 4-3, I think it's a natural question that they were probably asked to get ready for it. In other words, not just in film study but body preparation. So I think any weight listed on ESPN or NFL.com can be tossed out the window.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:54 PM    (permalink
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This is the kind of rebuttle I've been waiting for. Not saying I fully agree, but it's logical. It's plausible. Nice.
What is different about what he said in his first paragraph and this one that made me such a homer:


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I've seen Ware & Spencer both set the edge against the run against multiple blockers, at their listed weights, and do a great job. Spencer has been doing that since day one, Ware takes pride in that and loves to bring it up in interviews that he's just not a pass rusher. I do understand the difference in schemes trust me but I'm not naive enough to just look at a listed weight from years ago and assume that our DE's will suck because of their weight, not because of what I've seen.

Plus, you basically took their weights, said they will suck at DE, and said "anyone who thinks this DE duo will be sucessful is just a Cowboy fan and a huge homer". But if you want someone for a reference, take a look at Cameron Wake: http://www.nfl.com/player/cameronwake/2506314/profile


6'3 254 is his listed weight, made the transition from 3-4 OLB to 4-3 DE and graded out as PFF's top DE. Now since we are just simply looking at weights and saying guys can't succeed(that is what you did, not saying anything about their style of play which will make them struggle, just listed their weight then said the duo won't succeed) can you explain to me how Cameron Wake was able to grade out as the top DE at 254lbs?



Again, I'm already on record saying I didn't want Spencer back, but that's completely different. Plus a lot of it is about technique, even if Freeney and Mathis do weigh more then our DE duo, what are those guys known for? Who has ever mistook either of them for great run defenders? They are speed rushers through and through. Now think about Spencer, what was he known for his entire career when most of us were wondering if he was a bust or not? He's always been known to be great against the run, he has been great against the run, he takes on RT's every week and sets the edge great, if it wasn't for his play against the run we would have been getting gashed even more.


Does that mean that they'll both be in the pro bowl? Of course not. But neither of our DE's are bad against the run, I'd take them over guys like Freeney, Mathis, Avril, etc who are all heavier(listed) then they are.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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My point is these guys were basically on a 5-man line before, it's now a 4 man line.

If a team has the RT, TE, and a FB paving the way toward the strong side in a power run formation, I don't see how he can hold up over the course of the year.

I'm of the mindset that the kind of pounding you take at LDE would require someone like Crawford in there to battle.

I think Spencer will be worn down by the end of the year, I think it will take a toll on his pass rush ability, and I don't think it's an ideal position for him.

Why extend a guy into his mid 30's who will be the smallest player at his position in the league in a role he's never played in the NFL. It's just stupid.

Do I hope he can handle it? Yes, I hope Spencer is the best LDE in the league. But what do I have to support that becoming a reality? Not much. And there is no precedent set by other teams doing it. The closest I can come up with is the Colts and they got to play from ahead.
There is legit concern to wonder if Spencer will adjust to the move to the 4-3. It's one of the reasons why I think Franchising him over giving him a new contract is the smartest way to go forward with him.

But at the same time, there is fair reason to believe that he will be able to handle the adjustment. The proof will be on the field of course, so that question has yet to be answered. But based off history, Spencer possessing the skills of a good run stuffer in the past, it's not like we're putting a total liability out there. If this was Victor Butler making the transition, I think many of us would share your panic.

Bottom line... we all share the concern about it. The difference is there are varying degrees of panic about it. You seem to be on the high end while others may be more in the middle or low end. Since we all agree the worry exists, let's just leave it at that for now.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:09 PM    (permalink
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What is different about what he said in his first paragraph and this one that made me such a homer:





Plus, you basically took their weights, said they will suck at DE, and said "anyone who thinks this DE duo will be sucessful is just a Cowboy fan and a huge homer". But if you want someone for a reference, take a look at Cameron Wake: http://www.nfl.com/player/cameronwake/2506314/profile


6'3 254 is his listed weight, made the transition from 3-4 OLB to 4-3 DE and graded out as PFF's top DE. Now since we are just simply looking at weights and saying guys can't succeed(that is what you did, not saying anything about their style of play which will make them struggle, just listed their weight then said the duo won't succeed) can you explain to me how Cameron Wake was able to grade out as the top DE at 254lbs?



Again, I'm already on record saying I didn't want Spencer back, but that's completely different. Plus a lot of it is about technique, even if Freeney and Mathis do weigh more then our DE duo, what are those guys known for? Who has ever mistook either of them for great run defenders? They are speed rushers through and through. Now think about Spencer, what was he known for his entire career when most of us were wondering if he was a bust or not? He's always been known to be great against the run, he has been great against the run, he takes on RT's every week and sets the edge great, if it wasn't for his play against the run we would have been getting gashed even more.


Does that mean that they'll both be in the pro bowl? Of course not. But neither of our DE's are bad against the run, I'd take them over guys like Freeney, Mathis, Avril, etc who are all heavier(listed) then they are.
I think you're a homer because I think you only consider best case scenario. Do I know Spencer will fail? No, I don't. But based on history and league trends, the odds are against it.

Do you know he'll succeed? No, you don't. But based on your love and hope for the team, you think he will. That's the difference.

In regard to this whole thing, I NEVER said anything about Ware not being able to play RDE. It's been lumped in over the course of the debate, but to be clear, I think you can have a player of that size on the weak side.

So I'm hopeful Ware will make the same transition Wake did. My argument has never had anything to do with RDE

My problem is with having 2 players of that size, specifically the player who is expected to anchor the strong side at LDE. The odds are against Spencer being able to hold up in that role at that size. Especially if we're playing from behind and teams just keep running and running.

Going back to the Dolphins for example, they play Odrick at LDE in their 4-3. He's a former 5-tech from their time in the 3-4 with Koa Misi as their SOLB.

Misi, a DE in college & SOLB in the NFL, was never considered to be a pass rusher. His strength was vs the run. Yet the Dolphins, who run a very good defense, didnt think he was capable of playing LDE and moved him to SLB.

They kicked Odrick over to LDE to maintain size at the position.

So the Dolphins, who made the same conversion we're about to make, actually followed my line of thinking.

Following the Cowboys thinking they would have just slid Misi down to LDE and kicked Odrick inside to play DT.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:10 PM    (permalink
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There is legit concern to wonder if Spencer will adjust to the move to the 4-3. It's one of the reasons why I think Franchising him over giving him a new contract is the smartest way to go forward with him.

But at the same time, there is fair reason to believe that he will be able to handle the adjustment. The proof will be on the field of course, so that question has yet to be answered. But based off history, Spencer possessing the skills of a good run stuffer in the past, it's not like we're putting a total liability out there. If this was Victor Butler making the transition, I think many of us would share your panic.

Bottom line... we all share the concern about it. The difference is there are varying degrees of panic about it. You seem to be on the high end while others may be more in the middle or low end. Since we all agree the worry exists, let's just leave it at that for now.
Very reasonable. Fair enough.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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But I honestly do have to call out BBD for saying Ware is bigger than Tuck.

That's a joke.

Tuck? As in Justin Tuck? As in the guy who plays DE & DT???

Could you imagine Ware as a DT? Lol

He's an RDE. I never said there was anything wrong with that. He can be a damn good player there. My biggest concerns with him is his body breaking down, not the position he plays.

Everything comes back to Spencer for me. Fit, contract, commitment. I just don't like any aspect of Spencer on this team. Sometimes you have to move on from guys.

Like many of the other on here I hope they make him play out the year on the tag but reports have him inching towards a long term deal.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:23 PM    (permalink
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But I honestly do have to call out BBD for saying Ware is bigger than Tuck.

That's a joke.

Tuck? As in Justin Tuck? As in the guy who plays DE & DT???

Could you imagine Ware as a DT? Lol

He's an RDE. I never said there was anything wrong with that. He can be a damn good player there. My biggest concerns with him is his body breaking down, not the position he plays.

Everything comes back to Spencer for me. Fit, contract, commitment. I just don't like any aspect of Spencer on this team. Sometimes you have to move on from guys.

Like many of the other on here I hope they make him play out the year on the tag but reports have him inching towards a long term deal.
Actually, I don't think his point is real far off. Tuck is listed at 6'5" 268. Ware is listed at 6'4" 254. That's 14 lbs. And I tend to agree that 254 seems really light for Dware. I actually met DWare about 2 years ago. I'm 6'3" 230lbs and he made me look like a boy.

I'm not saying Ware can play DT, but I just don't think there's a big difference in their size.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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If you guys want fresh discussion you can talk about my new mock. That won't bother me at all! LOL

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/show...t=55307&page=6

Reply bastards! :D
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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Actually, I don't think his point is real far off. Tuck is listed at 6'5" 268. Ware is listed at 6'4" 254. That's 14 lbs. And I tend to agree that 254 seems really light for Dware. I actually met DWare about 2 years ago. I'm 6'3" 230lbs and he made me look like a boy.

I'm not saying Ware can play DT, but I just don't think there's a big difference in their size.
Regardless of where they're listed at, just look at them. Just trust your eyes. Tuck is much bigger than Ware.

It's funny he tells me "that's Ware's rookie weight, he's bigger than that" then goes on to cite the same weight for Tuck.. So Ware got bigger but Tuck didnt? Ok.

And every Cowboy fan knows the entire LB core dropped 10-12 lbs when Wade became coach to adjust from Parcells 2-gaping to Wades 1-gaping. It was heavily discussed here.

Tuck was an all pro DT. Ware would get washed out like a sea shell at DT. Their size isn't comparable.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:04 PM    (permalink
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I think you're a homer because I think you only consider best case scenario. Do I know Spencer will fail? No, I don't. But based on history and league trends, the odds are against it.

Where have you seen me consider that as the only scenario? When? Do I think it will work out? Yes I do, but that doesn't mean I think that's the only scenario here. That's a big difference in what you just said and something I never did. Last year when I predicted that Dez would breakout, do you think I thought that was the "only" scenario? I obviously very easily could have seen him have another up and down year, get hurt, something off the field, etc, even with me predicting him to break out. Same as me saying I think Spencer will fit, but that doesn't mean I'm right or that it's the only possible scenario.


And based on history and league trends the odds are against it? You mean like the example I just gave you of Cameron Wake? Also keep in mind I've been saying this about Spencer for well over a year now in regards to other teams and mentioning how I thought he would be a good 4-3 fit. He's always struck me as a guy who could easily play in either defense, and I remember him being praised for his run defense coming out that year:


Quote:
“A lot of people see Anthony Spencer as a pass rusher, and he did a good job. But from a productivity standpoint, he had 92 tackles, led the country in tackles for losses, so he was good versus the run also. That’s the thing people that didn’t watch him play miss.

He’s probably better against the run, than the pass. He started off really hot, and going into the Hawaii game, he had 26.5 tackles for losses, and then he started getting doubled, teams started using the tight end to block him and backs to chip. And they’d also run away from him, but the amazing thing about Anthony is that he’d chase a lot of those plays down from behind.
http://thejetsblog.com/main-page/sco...thony-spencer/



That, and he also played with his hand in the ground primarily as a 4-3 DE. It would be different if I was running around going "omg Dwight Freeney is a FA lets put him at LE and pass rush him with Ware best pass rushrsz evar!1!!" but Spencer at LE makes a ton of sense, I wouldn't even have to try really hard. Does that mean it will work out? I don't know, but of course I hope it does. I also think it will, but it's not the only scenario I could see playing out.



Quote:
Do you know he'll succeed? No, you don't. But based on your love and hope for the team, you think he will. That's the difference.

Now that I've already explained to you why I think he will, which literally has nothing to do with because he plays for the Cowboys, you know why comments like these are trolling. You think your post carry more credibility when you do that for some reason, like your the only objective person around here and your needed because you set everybody straight in their homer ways. You can state your case just like you do and leave this crap out and it's a much better forum, everyone disagrees here it's not like your setting some sort of trend.



Quote:
My problem is with having 2 players of that size, specifically the player who is expected to anchor the strong side at LDE. The odds are against Spencer being able to hold up in that role at that size. Especially if we're playing from behind and teams just keep running and running.

Going back to the Dolphins for example, they play Odrick at LDE in their 4-3. He's a former 5-tech from their time in the 3-4 with Koa Misi as their SOLB.

Misi, a DE in college & SOLB in the NFL, was never considered to be a pass rusher. His strength was vs the run. Yet the Dolphins, who run a very good defense, didnt think he was capable of playing LDE and moved him to SLB.

They kicked Odrick over to LDE to maintain size at the position.

So the Dolphins, who made the same conversion we're about to make, actually followed my line of thinking.

Following the Cowboys thinking they would have just slid Misi down to LDE and kicked Odrick inside to play DT.


Well we aren't about to be the 49ers against the run that's for sure, but it's not like we are going to be twice as bad last year because of the front now. My only issue was you listing their weights, and saying it's obviously only Cowboy fans who think this could work.


Now in regards to Miami, I don't know that is the reason why Misi didn't play there or really much about why they set their depth chart the way they did. We don't have any of those players. And I look at it like this.


Ware - Not concerned about 1 bit, and neither is anybody else. When I say anybody I mean scouts, anybody who breaks down film, Larry Lacewell(then again he might be considered a Cowboy homer too), but most places seem to agree he'll be fine there. He's a Hall of Famer and about as well rounded as you can be for a DE. He's got every bit pass rushing ability somebody like Freeney or Abraham has but he can play the run like none of those guys. Having him as a RE is an advantage.


Spencer - Played with his hand in the dirt in college, has long been our best run defender, was a tremendous run defender in college, sets the edge very well, and can still get after the passer. The traits he has are what I personally like in my LE. My assurance level is much lower then Ware, but unfortunately I can't say I am worried about him at LE.


They both could suck for all I know, especially Spencer who I didn't even want to keep, franchise, re-sign anything. It's an easy position to fill, and the market was dried up anyway. But I love our front 4(although I would have cut Ratliff after the dwi and signed Dorsey), it's not ideal but I really like it. We have what I think are 2 young stud LB's behind them and 2 really good CB's, I'm worried about Safety and getting a thumper at SLB. That's why I want to draft so much O-line early because our front 7 looks solid on paper.


I also am not clinging to those weights. We don't know where those guys are, but we do know they'll gain some weight and will probably be much closer to that average of 270 for it to even make a big deal. It seems like a lot when you pull up his nfl.com page saying 250 and change but Ware will probably be playing the season around 265 without much effort in getting there.
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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You guys need to get a room!!!
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:43 PM    (permalink
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I'm not gonna delete that LL because it looks like you spent a long time typing it up, but let's switch gears already. Dewy, if you respond to LL, please do it tastefully or not at all. Thank you.
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:45 PM    (permalink
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Ware is not bigger than Tuck.

Romo four more? $68 million? Another bad signing.
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:49 PM    (permalink
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Where have you seen me consider that as the only scenario? When? Do I think it will work out? Yes I do, but that doesn't mean I think that's the only scenario here. That's a big difference in what you just said and something I never did. Last year when I predicted that Dez would breakout, do you think I thought that was the "only" scenario? I obviously very easily could have seen him have another up and down year, get hurt, something off the field, etc, even with me predicting him to break out. Same as me saying I think Spencer will fit, but that doesn't mean I'm right or that it's the only possible scenario.


And based on history and league trends the odds are against it? You mean like the example I just gave you of Cameron Wake? Also keep in mind I've been saying this about Spencer for well over a year now in regards to other teams and mentioning how I thought he would be a good 4-3 fit. He's always struck me as a guy who could easily play in either defense, and I remember him being praised for his run defense coming out that year:



http://thejetsblog.com/main-page/sco...thony-spencer/



That, and he also played with his hand in the ground primarily as a 4-3 DE. It would be different if I was running around going "omg Dwight Freeney is a FA lets put him at LE and pass rush him with Ware best pass rushrsz evar!1!!" but Spencer at LE makes a ton of sense, I wouldn't even have to try really hard. Does that mean it will work out? I don't know, but of course I hope it does. I also think it will, but it's not the only scenario I could see playing out.






Now that I've already explained to you why I think he will, which literally has nothing to do with because he plays for the Cowboys, you know why comments like these are trolling. You think your post carry more credibility when you do that for some reason, like your the only objective person around here and your needed because you set everybody straight in their homer ways. You can state your case just like you do and leave this crap out and it's a much better forum, everyone disagrees here it's not like your setting some sort of trend.







Well we aren't about to be the 49ers against the run that's for sure, but it's not like we are going to be twice as bad last year because of the front now. My only issue was you listing their weights, and saying it's obviously only Cowboy fans who think this could work.


Now in regards to Miami, I don't know that is the reason why Misi didn't play there or really much about why they set their depth chart the way they did. We don't have any of those players. And I look at it like this.


Ware - Not concerned about 1 bit, and neither is anybody else. When I say anybody I mean scouts, anybody who breaks down film, Larry Lacewell(then again he might be considered a Cowboy homer too), but most places seem to agree he'll be fine there. He's a Hall of Famer and about as well rounded as you can be for a DE. He's got every bit pass rushing ability somebody like Freeney or Abraham has but he can play the run like none of those guys. Having him as a RE is an advantage.


Spencer - Played with his hand in the dirt in college, has long been our best run defender, was a tremendous run defender in college, sets the edge very well, and can still get after the passer. The traits he has are what I personally like in my LE. My assurance level is much lower then Ware, but unfortunately I can't say I am worried about him at LE.


They both could suck for all I know, especially Spencer who I didn't even want to keep, franchise, re-sign anything. It's an easy position to fill, and the market was dried up anyway. But I love our front 4(although I would have cut Ratliff after the dwi and signed Dorsey), it's not ideal but I really like it. We have what I think are 2 young stud LB's behind them and 2 really good CB's, I'm worried about Safety and getting a thumper at SLB. That's why I want to draft so much O-line early because our front 7 looks solid on paper.


I also am not clinging to those weights. We don't know where those guys are, but we do know they'll gain some weight and will probably be much closer to that average of 270 for it to even make a big deal. It seems like a lot when you pull up his nfl.com page saying 250 and change but Ware will probably be playing the season around 265 without much effort in getting there.

Ware/Wake comparison doesn't matter to me. Like I've said multiple times, I don't question, nor have I questioned if Ware will be successful.

I never said Ware is too small to play RDE. I've said he is slightly undersized, which is a fact, but I never said I'm concerned with Ware's ability to be productive. I'm more concerned with his ability to stay healthy.

My issue the entire time has been w Spencer being undersized on the strong side. I even suggested early on they try and play Spencer as SLB on running downs and move him to LDE on passing downs to preserves his body and maximize his strengths.

The reason the dolphins didn't move Misi to LDE is because of his size. They don't want someone that small taking the pounding required in the strong side.

You can tell me about Wake and BBD can bring up Jason Taylor -- ok great, they play/played the weak side. Ware's side. I'm not worried about that. That is where the smaller but quicker DE has always played in the NFL. That's where you plug your stud pass rusher in. Ware is fine there.

Despite Spencer's success in college at RDE and despite his success as a SOLB, it's my opinion that he'll get eaten alive as a full time LDE against the run.

Maybe the Colts aren't the perfect comparison but its the only one I can use because no other team has ever attempted to trot out a pair of DE's this small. I literally cannot find another duo weighing as little as this duo and that concerns me.

The fact that Spencer will be the smallest starting LDE in the league concerns me.

The Ravens, like the Dolphins with Odrick (6'5" 302), did the same thing. When switching to a 4-3 they used Suggs (6'3" 260) at RDE but played bigger players like McPhee (6'3" 280) at LDE.

Weight ABSOLUTELY matters. If it didnt, teams would play CB's at safety and safeties at LB.

Tyrann Mathieu would be the best FS prospect in years. The reality is weight is a huge component, especially in the trenches, and Spencer is slated to be the smallest at his position.

So again, Ware is fine. Spencer is a problem. Same thing I've been saying all along. This should be Crawfords position. Much better suited to play the part.

If Spencer bulks up 15-20 lbs how explosive will he be? What's the point? To me, he just doesn't have the build to play the part.

Also note Spencer played RDE in college. We have 2 RDE's and we're forcing one in at LDE which is just stupid. It will show up.

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Old 03-25-2013, 09:54 PM    (permalink
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Ware is not bigger than Tuck.

Romo four more? $68 million? Another bad signing.
Ware is nowhere close to Tucks size. Osi, yes. Tuck, hell no.
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Old 03-25-2013, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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LL, this just popped in my head --

You want a thumper at SLB because... Why?

Because that's how it's done in the NFL. It's the strong side. You put the thumper type over there with the WILL (Carter) being the better athlete.

You want someone like Vacarro, who has the cover skills of a FS to compliment Church at SS because... Why?

Because that's what people do in the NFL.

So why is it at these positions you're ok with following conventional wisdom, but at DE you don't care?

Ware & Spencer are both RDE's in a 4-3. It's like having 2 SS's or plugging in Ernie Simms, an athlete WILL type, at SAM.

Haven't you said you're worried about Church and Johnson side by side because they have the same skill set? They don't compliment each other?

I don't see how Ware & Spencer are any different. Spencer is much more valuable to someone else than he is to the Cowboys. This is an absolute Jerry force move that doesn't have any logic behind it.

I hope I'm wrong.
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