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Old 03-18-2013, 02:03 PM    (permalink
NMfootball85
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Looking back at the college stats, I've discovered that Joe Montana was not nearly as good as a pro as we thought he was. Turns out the guy only had 515 pass attempts in his CAREER at Notre Dame! Given that Landry Jones had more attempts than that in 3 out of his 4 seasons it is safe to see that Landry has a 75% chance of surpassing Montana's career NFL numbers in just his rookie season. Pretty shocking when you remove the hype and opinion, huh?

Just the facts, ma'am.
LOL Good point about Montana but that is an absurd example to prove your point.. cause the Game has changed since then.. The top 10 QB's in the NFL all throw it 550-600 plus times a year for over 4000 yards and 30 plus TD's.. Very few QB's in College who have crappy stats, become really good in the NFL.. If your good you have good stats if your not you don't. In Science, a study that has 1000's of test's is given a lot more weight than a study that has 100's.. Would you prefer a QB who had 75% of 150 passes or a guy who completes 65% 1500 passes.. the 75% QB might be better than the other QB, but its hard to say.. to say the 65% qb is not as good as the first is stupid too. Landry shouldn't have his accomplishments totally discounted by a "So Call" fatal flaw (bad under pressure) his sacks and Int's are low looking at his attempts..
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Old 03-18-2013, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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There is. I've been waiting for more people to go crazy over their favorite QB. Sometimes its painful, but its at least something to debate.

Taking Landry Jones over over Barkley is a bolder call but I could see it. Jones over Luck is a joke though. There is no rational argument for it. Luck out performed Jones in college. Just because his offense didn't force him to throw it 60 times a game doesn't mean he wasn't better. Jones is in an offense that passes a ton and puts up stats. It substituted skill for volume. Landry Jones isn't even close to Bradford.

Luck was put in a very difficult position for a rookie last year. The offense put it all on him. With a bad run game and bad OL play, the forced him to sink or swim with deep drops and a very vertical offense. The number of pass attempts was just stupid honestly but the Colts were lacking as a team so their best chance to win was having Luck carry them basically. He forced throws because he had to. It worked sometimes and it bit him on the ass often too. There are very few rookies who are decently successful on that team, even fewer that get them a winning record and even fewer than get them to the playoffs. Put Landry on that team and they don't get more than 5 wins at best.
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Old 03-18-2013, 02:56 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
RG3 has a much, much better deep ball than Barkley and he blows him away in arm strength.

Why would you have taken Barkley over Griffin again???
First off, I agree that Griffin has a much better deep ball. I was certain before the draft that Griffin's greatest strength, by far, was his deep ball. Barkley's deep ball hardly compares. Griffin is not the most accurate passer at the shorter distances due to a few minor issues that could very well be correctable, but he has very minimal falloff in accuracy with distance, and a strong enough arm that receivers don't outrun his range. Barkley's deep ball isn't nearly as bad as a lot of people seem to think, however. I'd peg Barkley's deep ball accuracy as above average for future NFL starters, and I'd do the same with his arm strength. This is clearly not the reason I'd take Barkley over Griffin.

Secondly, even though I believe Matt Barkley is a much better athlete than he's given credit for, he is nowhere near the athlete Griffin is. Barkley is easily a good enough athlete for any need a traditional offense requires of a QB, and I would run an offense that does not particularly call for an athlete at QB, most likely.

So why would I take Barkley? Intermediate accuracy and trajectory control, along with great calmness under pressure. When I saw what positions Barkley was put in this year, I have never seen a QB prospect that would have any kind of success, yet Barkley did, excepting a few terrible decisions. In other words, I give him a lot of credit for the situations he was in. On the other hand, I give Griffin large demerits for the lack of difficulty in his situation. I honestly didn't see a lot of the Redskins this year, but what I did see was receivers who were immediately wide open because of defenses that were terrified of the run, yet hadn't figured out how to play it. I saw some of the same thing as a niners fan when Kaepernick ran wild on some of our opponents. That said, I do see Griffin as a potential all-star QB, though I do think he hasn't proven it yet.

In yet another set of words, after reviewing all the evidence, I'm forced to rate Barkley pretty much where I did last year, which is as a potential all-time great. I know most people don't agree with me this time around, but I think he would be a worthy first overall player, though not for KC. I see all the warning signs for why he might not be where I rate him, but I'm not going to change my mind just to look like less of an idiot if I'm wrong.
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Old 03-18-2013, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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First off, I agree that Griffin has a much better deep ball. I was certain before the draft that Griffin's greatest strength, by far, was his deep ball. Barkley's deep ball hardly compares. Griffin is not the most accurate passer at the shorter distances due to a few minor issues that could very well be correctable, but he has very minimal falloff in accuracy with distance, and a strong enough arm that receivers don't outrun his range. Barkley's deep ball isn't nearly as bad as a lot of people seem to think, however. I'd peg Barkley's deep ball accuracy as above average for future NFL starters, and I'd do the same with his arm strength. This is clearly not the reason I'd take Barkley over Griffin.

Secondly, even though I believe Matt Barkley is a much better athlete than he's given credit for, he is nowhere near the athlete Griffin is. Barkley is easily a good enough athlete for any need a traditional offense requires of a QB, and I would run an offense that does not particularly call for an athlete at QB, most likely.

So why would I take Barkley? Intermediate accuracy and trajectory control, along with great calmness under pressure. When I saw what positions Barkley was put in this year, I have never seen a QB prospect that would have any kind of success, yet Barkley did, excepting a few terrible decisions. In other words, I give him a lot of credit for the situations he was in. On the other hand, I give Griffin large demerits for the lack of difficulty in his situation. I honestly didn't see a lot of the Redskins this year, but what I did see was receivers who were immediately wide open because of defenses that were terrified of the run, yet hadn't figured out how to play it. I saw some of the same thing as a niners fan when Kaepernick ran wild on some of our opponents. That said, I do see Griffin as a potential all-star QB, though I do think he hasn't proven it yet.

In yet another set of words, after reviewing all the evidence, I'm forced to rate Barkley pretty much where I did last year, which is as a potential all-time great. I know most people don't agree with me this time around, but I think he would be a worthy first overall player, though not for KC. I see all the warning signs for why he might not be where I rate him, but I'm not going to change my mind just to look like less of an idiot if I'm wrong.
Are you comparing RG3's rookie season in the NFL to Barkley's at USC?
I thought you were comparing them as PRO PROSPECTS, when both were collegians.

That was my question.

Barkley faced adversity at USC in 2012??
That was RG3's regular at Baylor for 3 years as a starter.

Barkley may end up a good NFL QB, but I'll be honest his being a Trojan/Lane Kiffin product cools me on him a lot.
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Old 03-18-2013, 11:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Are you comparing RG3's rookie season in the NFL to Barkley's at USC?
I thought you were comparing them as PRO PROSPECTS, when both were collegians.

That was my question.

Barkley faced adversity at USC in 2012??
That was RG3's regular at Baylor for 3 years as a starter.

Barkley may end up a good NFL QB, but I'll be honest his being a Trojan/Lane Kiffin product cools me on him a lot.
Actually, I am comparing Griffin as a prospect and as a rookie versus Barkley as a prospect. Basically, I am supplementing my opinions on Griffin when he was drafted with what I saw of him this last year. I went pretty far in-depth scouting him last year, so that is where most of my opinion comes from, but one must always update with the latest information if it is applicable to the comparison. For Griffin this gives a significant boost, since he proved he can make the transition.

The situations I saw for Griffin at Baylor in his last year were far easier for him than the situations I saw Barkley in. I have no basis for comparing Griffin's previous years, however. First, both of them had great receivers, but Griffin's tended toward being more open, perhaps because of the paucity of defense in that conference. Kendall Wright is a great receiver, and I desperately hoped his slow 40 would have gotten him to fall, but it didn't. Secondly, Griffin faced minimal pressure, while Barkley was constantly under siege. This was partially due once again to Baylor scheduling a lot of teams with horrible defenses. USC's o-line was overrated in Barkley's junior year, but they were much worse this last year, especially when Khaled Holmes was hurt. Third, Barkley's receivers dropped a surprisingly high number of easy catches, quite a few of them for interceptions. Fourth, Lane Kiffin's play calling was crap.

In other words, Griffin got easier throws, easier decisions, more time, and better play calling. Obviously, Griffin also did better. Weighing those factors against each other, as well as all of the other factors is obviously a difficult task, but when I do, I pick Barkley.

I understand being leery of a Kiffin QB, it only makes sense, but the same statement could have legitimately been made about Tedford QBs before Aaron Rodgers. Barkley has that kind of talent, and the situation here is very reminiscent of that. He is so far beyond the Leinarts and Sanchezes, that it is hilarious to hear the comparisons. He could still fail, drafting QBs is a crapshoot, but it wouldn't have anything to with those two.

You can take Griffin, I'll take Barkley. Taking Barkley might not be the right move, but I think it will be.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:33 AM    (permalink
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Actually, I am comparing Griffin as a prospect and as a rookie versus Barkley as a prospect. Basically, I am supplementing my opinions on Griffin when he was drafted with what I saw of him this last year. I went pretty far in-depth scouting him last year, so that is where most of my opinion comes from, but one must always update with the latest information if it is applicable to the comparison. For Griffin this gives a significant boost, since he proved he can make the transition.

The situations I saw for Griffin at Baylor in his last year were far easier for him than the situations I saw Barkley in. I have no basis for comparing Griffin's previous years, however. First, both of them had great receivers, but Griffin's tended toward being more open, perhaps because of the paucity of defense in that conference. Kendall Wright is a great receiver, and I desperately hoped his slow 40 would have gotten him to fall, but it didn't. Secondly, Griffin faced minimal pressure, while Barkley was constantly under siege. This was partially due once again to Baylor scheduling a lot of teams with horrible defenses. USC's o-line was overrated in Barkley's junior year, but they were much worse this last year, especially when Khaled Holmes was hurt. Third, Barkley's receivers dropped a surprisingly high number of easy catches, quite a few of them for interceptions. Fourth, Lane Kiffin's play calling was crap.

In other words, Griffin got easier throws, easier decisions, more time, and better play calling. Obviously, Griffin also did better. Weighing those factors against each other, as well as all of the other factors is obviously a difficult task, but when I do, I pick Barkley.

I understand being leery of a Kiffin QB, it only makes sense, but the same statement could have legitimately been made about Tedford QBs before Aaron Rodgers. Barkley has that kind of talent, and the situation here is very reminiscent of that. He is so far beyond the Leinarts and Sanchezes, that it is hilarious to hear the comparisons. He could still fail, drafting QBs is a crapshoot, but it wouldn't have anything to with those two.

You can take Griffin, I'll take Barkley. Taking Barkley might not be the right move, but I think it will be.
I really think you need to reevaluate your assessment of college teams. There is no way Baylor comes close to USC in overall talent, coaching yes but talent no. Using that as a reason to put Barkley ahead of Griffin is absurd in my opinion.

Anybody who claims any of this year's crop of college QB's comes anywhere near the talent level of last year's college QB's, simply needs to study a lot more film because they don't know what they are talking about. It isn't even close.

The people who are banging it out for Smith, Barkley, Manual, Jones, Wilson and Glennon and trying to compare them to last year's crop, are in some kind of dreamland. This year's crop is extremely mediocre, there isn't a standout among them.
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:16 AM    (permalink
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No QB who's ever played for USC is 'so far beyond' Matt Leinart. Not even Barkley.
People tend to forget just how good Leinart was for the Trojans because he's been a bust as a pro.

Baylor's oline was very poor in pass pro when RG3 was there. I don't want to get into it but it doesn't make sense IMO to suggest Barkley played under greater duress in college than Griffin did at Baylor.

No matter where Barkley is drafted, he has a lot to prove. I don't see many givens with him or upside as an NFL QB.
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Old 03-19-2013, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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There is. I've been waiting for more people to go crazy over their favorite QB. Sometimes its painful, but its at least something to debate.

Taking Landry Jones over over Barkley is a bolder call but I could see it. Jones over Luck is a joke though. There is no rational argument for it. Luck out performed Jones in college. Just because his offense didn't force him to throw it 60 times a game doesn't mean he wasn't better. Jones is in an offense that passes a ton and puts up stats. It substituted skill for volume. Landry Jones isn't even close to Bradford.

Luck was put in a very difficult position for a rookie last year. The offense put it all on him. With a bad run game and bad OL play, the forced him to sink or swim with deep drops and a very vertical offense. The number of pass attempts was just stupid honestly but the Colts were lacking as a team so their best chance to win was having Luck carry them basically. He forced throws because he had to. It worked sometimes and it bit him on the ass often too. There are very few rookies who are decently successful on that team, even fewer that get them a winning record and even fewer than get them to the playoffs. Put Landry on that team and they don't get more than 5 wins at best.
I am not knocking Lucks year he did great.. He made the play offs and thats the ultimate standard of success in the NFL. I'd take luck over Barkley any day.. Luck is a great quarterback.. Luck Out performed Jones in College??? Luck had like 9000 plus yards in college and 84 touchdowns... Yes he had 70 plus completion percent but only on 350 passes.. Landry 16646 yards and 123 TD's.. They both won a lot of games. Landry had 66% on 560 passes.. Luck threw 3500 yards Landry 4700 yards best year. Teams go with what works, the pass run ratio is based on success of either. The Colts went with Luck cause their run game sucked. OU went with Jones more often cause he was good and averaged 328 yards a game. Luck is a better leader, both I think struggle with pressure, but Landry is a better passer more accurate passes with more zip or arm strength. yes I am a homer fan of Landry's.. However the Cream rises to the top, and Geno and Luck are good QB's and deserve the accolades but my Point is that to take what Landry did and his talent, and then to discount everything and put behind dysert, Scott, Glennon, Wilson, Nessib and all the rest is ridiculous.. I have seen mediocre players hyped but have never seen someone so accomplished who set so many records, be so maligned over a handful of bad plays and not winning the National championship... Bruce Arians knows great QB's in Luck and Manning what he does in the Draft will be the ultimate in what he thinks the QB's He already didn't send anyone to Geno's.. My Bet is on Landry over Barkley.

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Old 03-19-2013, 12:20 PM    (permalink
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No QB who's ever played for USC is 'so far beyond' Matt Leinart. Not even Barkley.
People tend to forget just how good Leinart was for the Trojans because he's been a bust as a pro.

Baylor's oline was very poor in pass pro when RG3 was there. I don't want to get into it but it doesn't make sense IMO to suggest Barkley played under greater duress in college than Griffin did at Baylor.

No matter where Barkley is drafted, he has a lot to prove. I don't see many givens with him or upside as an NFL QB.
My Complaint about Griffin is that he took 79 Sacks in 1100 passes. Jones took 54 in 2183.. I havent watched every play of every game.. but it raises questions. If a guy has a high completion rate and a low int rate but a really high sack rate.. It could mean that they don't try to get rid of the ball, throwing it away lowers the completion percentage and ups the ints, or it could mean that their Oline sucked bad but they should still have a lower sack Rate. QB's shouldn't be rewarded for just taking the sack, that's selfish and doesn't help the team win and that doesnt mean they are better at dealing with pressure. I think Jones was good at avoiding pressure, with a 2.44 sec snap to release but also did everything to get rid of the ball and on occasion he looked bad threw a few int's and made mistakes.
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Old 03-19-2013, 01:18 PM    (permalink
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My Complaint about Griffin is that he took 79 Sacks in 1100 passes. Jones took 54 in 2183.. I havent watched every play of every game.. but it raises questions. If a guy has a high completion rate and a low int rate but a really high sack rate.. It could mean that they don't try to get rid of the ball, throwing it away lowers the completion percentage and ups the ints, or it could mean that their Oline sucked bad but they should still have a lower sack Rate. QB's shouldn't be rewarded for just taking the sack, that's selfish and doesn't help the team win and that doesnt mean they are better at dealing with pressure. I think Jones was good at avoiding pressure, with a 2.44 sec snap to release but also did everything to get rid of the ball and on occasion he looked bad threw a few int's and made mistakes.

79 sacks in 1100 attempts roughly averages to a little over 2 sacks per 30 attempts. I don't know how you're evaluating that sack number, but from a game standpoint, taking 2 sacks over 4 quarters is fine for a QB who scrambles like Grif did behind the LOS at Baylor letting WRs get open and make plays.

In practical terms, the only thing Landry Jones' lower sack number means to is that he played behind a much better Oline in college and threw the ball away instead of taking the hit.
How many plays did Jones give up on because he knew he was about to get smacked??

Your sack argument in favor of Landry Jones is kind of irrelevant.
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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I really think you need to reevaluate your assessment of college teams. There is no way Baylor comes close to USC in overall talent, coaching yes but talent no. Using that as a reason to put Barkley ahead of Griffin is absurd in my opinion.

Anybody who claims any of this year's crop of college QB's comes anywhere near the talent level of last year's college QB's, simply needs to study a lot more film because they don't know what they are talking about. It isn't even close.

The people who are banging it out for Smith, Barkley, Manual, Jones, Wilson and Glennon and trying to compare them to last year's crop, are in some kind of dreamland. This year's crop is extremely mediocre, there isn't a standout among them.
I didn't ever say that Baylor had more talent than USC. I said that Baylor played horrible defenses, and were able to completely dominate them. The quality of the defense matters a hell of a lot. All of Griffin's games from which I saw footage involved teams that could not possibly cover his receivers, and couldn't rush the passer either. Most the defenses I saw Barkley play were capable of covering his receivers to an extent, and the pass rush was constantly in his face.

I agree that this year's crop of QBs is mediocre at best. Glennon is horrible. Geno is good, but nothing special, and had a hard time against decent defenses. Besides Barkley, none of the others are even worth mentioning. That said, Barkley is going to be great, and is worthy of a high selection. I would not be surprised if he ends up being the steal of the early rounds. (Hard to compete with whatever sixth or seventh rounder becomes an all star for steal status).
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Old 03-19-2013, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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No QB who's ever played for USC is 'so far beyond' Matt Leinart. Not even Barkley.
People tend to forget just how good Leinart was for the Trojans because he's been a bust as a pro.

Baylor's oline was very poor in pass pro when RG3 was there. I don't want to get into it but it doesn't make sense IMO to suggest Barkley played under greater duress in college than Griffin did at Baylor.

No matter where Barkley is drafted, he has a lot to prove. I don't see many givens with him or upside as an NFL QB.
Leinart was clutch too, Barkley always floundered in big moments.

I still remember Leinart vs Quinn. 4th down play, game on the line, Leinart makes a perfect pass to Dwayne Jarrett down the sideline. Then gets helicoptered out of bounds a few plays later. Then calls the QB sneak and Reggie pushes him in. Great game.

Barkley on the other hand... Lol.

I'm a huge USC fan. Major homer. In terms of prospects coming out of USC I'd rank them Sanchez, Leinart, Barkley.

Sanchez had the best physical tools, Leinart had the mentality of a winner and clutch performer but didnt have the athleticism or the arm Sanchez had.. Barkley has neither the arm or athleticism of Sanchez and doesn't have the intangibles of Leinart.

Barkley is a 2nd-3rd rd QB that's being overhyped for "smarts" and "played in pro system" and "good kid"

Edit: and the Barkley over RG3 comp is absurd. RG3 is not only a better athlete with a better arm but has the mentality you want in a QB.

Barkley's own teammates called him out for being a girl last season and the team was divided heading into the bowl game. If you can't lead guys in college, you definitely can't lead them as Pro's.

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Old 03-23-2013, 01:56 PM    (permalink
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79 sacks in 1100 attempts roughly averages to a little over 2 sacks per 30 attempts. I don't know how you're evaluating that sack number, but from a game standpoint, taking 2 sacks over 4 quarters is fine for a QB who scrambles like Grif did behind the LOS at Baylor letting WRs get open and make plays.

In practical terms, the only thing Landry Jones' lower sack number means to is that he played behind a much better Oline in college and threw the ball away instead of taking the hit.
How many plays did Jones give up on because he knew he was about to get smacked??

Your sack argument in favor of Landry Jones is kind of irrelevant.

79 sacks per 1100 attempts would be like landry taking 158 Sacks at 2100 attempts.. Landry had a decent O line but it was not that great cause the run game got bogged down enough so they created the need for the Bell Dozer package in the red zone. Landry was pressured plenty but it was his arm and operating out of the gun that helped avoid pressure. Bill Polian said that high sack numbers was not a good thing for a QB and it was their responsibility to get rid of it quickly. Each Sack is a loss of 7-10 yards and usually equals a punt or turn over.. Landry Should be ranked equal or ahead of Geno Smith but this whole pressure argument has him ranked 5th-10th.. I think over 4 years only a handful of bad plays getting rid of the ball under pressure gave him this reputation.. Any QB with the worst line can and should throw it away rather than take the sack.. Just taking the sack can make a QB's stats better but doesn't make a QB good at pressure and doesn't help the team win.
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Old 03-23-2013, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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Taking sacks in college also means a QB is pressing to make plays.

One of the reasons Stoops took the ball out of Landry Jones' hands in the redzone(think about that for a moment, OU's HC benched his starting QB in critical scoring situations near the endzone. Look around the NCAA and tell me when that EVER happens), was because he knew Landry Jones if given the choice to hang in the pocket and complete a pass just as he's about to get blasted by a rushing DE, was more likely to throw the ball away.

When RG3 beat OU in 2011, he got blown up several times in that game.
The last hit he took in that contest was at the end of scramble that resulted in a game winning TD over two Sooners defenders in the back of the endzone.

All sacks aren't created equal and have to viewed in context.
Is the QB routinely holding on to the ball too long and out of rhythm with the offense???
Is the QB being chased out of the pocket the minute he plants at the top of his dropback??

Or is the QB scrambling around trying to make a play??

Landry Jones' fewer number of sacks didn't result in a greater level of efficiency or production for him. In fact with all those extra attempts, his yardage and TD totals weren't much different than any other top rated QBs.

Landry Jones may have taken less sacks per attempt, but he also had more wasted plays per snap where there was no gain at all.
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Old 03-28-2013, 03:47 PM    (permalink
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Leinart was clutch too, Barkley always floundered in big moments.

I still remember Leinart vs Quinn. 4th down play, game on the line, Leinart makes a perfect pass to Dwayne Jarrett down the sideline. Then gets helicoptered out of bounds a few plays later. Then calls the QB sneak and Reggie pushes him in. Great game.

Barkley on the other hand... Lol.

I'm a huge USC fan. Major homer. In terms of prospects coming out of USC I'd rank them Sanchez, Leinart, Barkley.

Sanchez had the best physical tools, Leinart had the mentality of a winner and clutch performer but didnt have the athleticism or the arm Sanchez had.. Barkley has neither the arm or athleticism of Sanchez and doesn't have the intangibles of Leinart.

Barkley is a 2nd-3rd rd QB that's being overhyped for "smarts" and "played in pro system" and "good kid"

Edit: and the Barkley over RG3 comp is absurd. RG3 is not only a better athlete with a better arm but has the mentality you want in a QB.

Barkley's own teammates called him out for being a girl last season and the team was divided heading into the bowl game. If you can't lead guys in college, you definitely can't lead them as Pro's.
I can't believe the endless amount of excuses I have seen made for USC QBs. You are one of the few admitted USC fans who can say no to Kool Aid.

From Rotoworld:

At least two NFL scouts were concerned with the way USC QB Matt Barkley's deep passes "fluttered" amid a "gentle breeze" at the Trojans' Pro Day.
"If he thinks this is windy, wait until he gets to Philly or New York or Buffalo," one coach said. "But he's working his way back from that injury. Hopefully he'll get stronger as he goes." Asked if Barkley answered questions about his arm, Raiders GM Reggie McKenzie replied, "to a point." Per SI's Jim Trotter, Barkley's performance "was not pristine." He forced receivers to make "acrobatic catches," and at other times would-be pass catchers "had to wait for the ball to arrive."
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Old 03-28-2013, 06:43 PM    (permalink
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OT: Didn't they legalize medical marijuana in Washington???
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:04 PM    (permalink
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OT: Didn't they legalize medical marijuana in Washington???
Yes they did and also Oregon. However, most places are still treating it as illegal in the work place etc. Cops just can't bust your ass now .
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