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Old 03-31-2013, 04:35 AM    (permalink
norcalgsr
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
All throws happen first at your base; the hips and legs. Biomechanically it's very similar to throwing the javelin.

THrowing the ball hard can be improved through becoming stronger as an athlete.

How quickly you're able to go through your throwing motion and get rid of the football at a high velocity, that's IMO more genetic.
Only Tim Tebow throws like a javelin thrower. That's the reason he can throw far, but isn't very accurate. He muscles up. He has a "different" kind of arm strength.

QBs such as Drew Brees and Robert Griffin produce whip with their arms via external rotation. They use the smaller muscles to produce velocity. It's those smaller muscles that allow them finer control on the ball to be more accurate. It's what produces what people call "flick of the wrist"-looking throwing motions.

It's not just (static) strength that enables you to throw harder/farther, it's the elastically explosive properties of muscles as well.
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Old 03-31-2013, 04:51 AM    (permalink
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Only Tim Tebow throws like a javelin thrower. That's the reason he can throw far, but isn't very accurate. He muscles up. He has a "different" kind of arm strength.

QBs such as Drew Brees and Robert Griffin produce whip with their arms via external rotation. They use the smaller muscles to produce velocity. It's those smaller muscles that allow them finer control on the ball to be more accurate. It's what produces what people call "flick of the wrist"-looking throwing motions.

It's not just (static) strength that enables you to throw harder/farther, it's the elastically explosive properties of muscles as well.

Totally agree. You said it better than I could.
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Old 03-31-2013, 05:25 AM    (permalink
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When he threw the ball that distance, he was an adult messing around in the Eagles camp. He was 168 when he entered the NBA. It's conceivable he gained 6 pounds along the way. But the point is he is still much frailer than 99% of all football players, yet he could outgun most of them.

As far as you comment about Quinn's "problem", I am talking about his lack of arm strength alone. He does not have a strong arm and the few times when he hums it, you can see him putting forth great effort to do so. Not so with Michael Vick who flicks effortlessly the ball any distance he wants to.

Can you increase arm strength with weight training MINIMALLY at best. Either you have a strong arm or you don't. You don't jump from having an average or weak arm to having a strong arm. Mark Bulger didn't throw harder than Chad Pennington because of his superior technique and he obviously wasn't bigger or stronger overall. He just had a strong arm, period. Spud Webb could dunk at 5'7" and it wasn't because of superior weight training with his legs.
(I remember how big AI was at Georgetown and he was barely 160#. John Thompson made a point of emphasizing all the time how tough Iverson was for his weight but still wanted him to get bigger. But yeah, AI threw that football at Eagles practice at probably IMO @160#, which still highlights his natural arm strength. Not many guys that small can throw a football 60 yards.)

Arm strength, or the ability to throw a ball far, is for the most part genetic. How quickly one can rotate their arm and their ability to explode up through their hips and generate 'instant' velocity has always been present, even as young kids.

But the reason why someone like Daunte Culpepper is a strong thrower compared to someone like Vick isn't the exact same.

There's a an immutable genetic component to sports performance, but you'd be mistaken to underestimate how a targeted strength training program can substantially improve an athlete's performance.
I've met a trainer who worked at the U.S. Olympic Training facility in Colorado Springs and some of the improvements they're able to achieve through targeted CLEAN ballistic training is really unbelievable.

All Olympic sprinters are serious lifters. All world class middle distance runners grind in the weight room. Longjumpers, pole vaulters, hurdlers, all lift hard in the offseason, even though nearly all of them were gifted athletes before they ever picked up a weight.

IMO any D1 college QB can get his arm up to NFL average through weight training, which is significant.

Lifting alone won't make someone an elite level athlete, but it will make you a better athlete depending on where you're starting from.

If the improvement was just 'marginal', athletes wouldn't lift.
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Old 03-31-2013, 08:06 AM    (permalink
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(I remember how big AI was at Georgetown and he was barely 160#. John Thompson made a point of emphasizing all the time how tough Iverson was for his weight but still wanted him to get bigger. But yeah, AI threw that football at Eagles practice at probably IMO @160#, which still highlights his natural arm strength. Not many guys that small can throw a football 60 yards.)

Arm strength, or the ability to throw a ball far, is for the most part genetic. How quickly one can rotate their arm and their ability to explode up through their hips and generate 'instant' velocity has always been present, even as young kids.

But the reason why someone like Daunte Culpepper is a strong thrower compared to someone like Vick isn't the exact same.

There's a an immutable genetic component to sports performance, but you'd be mistaken to underestimate how a targeted strength training program can substantially improve an athlete's performance.
I've met a trainer who worked at the U.S. Olympic Training facility in Colorado Springs and some of the improvements they're able to achieve through targeted CLEAN ballistic training is really unbelievable.

All Olympic sprinters are serious lifters. All world class middle distance runners grind in the weight room. Longjumpers, pole vaulters, hurdlers, all lift hard in the offseason, even though nearly all of them were gifted athletes before they ever picked up a weight.

IMO any D1 college QB can get his arm up to NFL average through weight training, which is significant.

Lifting alone won't make someone an elite level athlete, but it will make you a better athlete depending on where you're starting from.

If the improvement was just 'marginal', athletes wouldn't lift.
We are sort of getting off topic here. Of course strength training can improve performance as a general concept in sports. Runners are fast naturally and then they train to compete against other fast runners. It's not the same with passing a football. Throwing is an unnatural motion to begin with, unlike running. Also, much of the training involved with running focuses on strength training- not the case with passing a football. If there were big gains to be had, then logically there would be much more of an emphasis on strength training for throwing. So the possible gains from strength training for runners is MUCH more significant than that possible gains from throwing a football. The point I am making, which I tend to think you understand, is having a "strong arm" is largely determined by natural ability, not strength training. It's genetic and anatomic. Just like 98% of guys who are 5'7" could never dunk like Spud Web with all weight training in the world, the guy who suggested that the QB (yeah, I admit I forgot the prospect we are talking about ) could simply "improve his arm strength" is false. I am by no means knocking or discounting strength training. Strength training could get a weak armed QB to perform to the peak of his abilities- but relatively speaking, he would still be a weak armed QB. Weight training in his particular circumstance will not be enough to jump a QB's arm to the next level.

Curious, do you live in the 757?

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Old 03-31-2013, 08:20 AM    (permalink
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(I remember how big AI was at Georgetown and he was barely 160#. John Thompson made a point of emphasizing all the time how tough Iverson was for his weight but still wanted him to get bigger. But yeah, AI threw that football at Eagles practice at probably IMO @160#, which still highlights his natural arm strength. Not many guys that small can throw a football 60 yards.)

Arm strength, or the ability to throw a ball far, is for the most part genetic. How quickly one can rotate their arm and their ability to explode up through their hips and generate 'instant' velocity has always been present, even as young kids.

But the reason why someone like Daunte Culpepper is a strong thrower compared to someone like Vick isn't the exact same.

There's a an immutable genetic component to sports performance, but you'd be mistaken to underestimate how a targeted strength training program can substantially improve an athlete's performance.
I've met a trainer who worked at the U.S. Olympic Training facility in Colorado Springs and some of the improvements they're able to achieve through targeted CLEAN ballistic training is really unbelievable.

All Olympic sprinters are serious lifters. All world class middle distance runners grind in the weight room. Longjumpers, pole vaulters, hurdlers, all lift hard in the offseason, even though nearly all of them were gifted athletes before they ever picked up a weight.

IMO any D1 college QB can get his arm up to NFL average through weight training, which is significant.

Lifting alone won't make someone an elite level athlete, but it will make you a better athlete depending on where you're starting from.

If the improvement was just 'marginal', athletes wouldn't lift.
Yes. I was a sports specific personal trainer/group exercise instructor for 10+ years and I can vouch first hand how much proper weight training can do to help an athlete outperform themselves on a year-by-year basis (or even month by month). Appropriate weight training can make a tremendous difference in an athlete's speed, explosion, agility, obviously power and strength, but also make a slight-yes, this is true too, improvement in arm strength.

I think everybody would agree that both Tom Brady and Drew Brees have stronger arms than when they entered the NFL. Over their years their arms have gone from below average, to average, to above average. A lot of this has to do with them filling out their frames (added weight helps increase strength, and once the body gers moving it also increases power) and a lot of it has to do with them becoming stronger athletes all around.

To add further to what he said, Olympic athletes don't just lift hard during the offseason, they continue with an altered program (just like the NFL does) during the season. A program that allows the athletes to maintain their strength without taxing the body as far as lengthy recoveries go.

As far as having ANY D1 QB being able to increase arm strength to average, I and have to disagree. There are so many variables that go into arm strength-weight, lever length, flexibility, mechanics, hand size, finger strength, and then the health of every muscle and joint that is used in throwing... some people are going to have crappy arms no matter what they do. They can improve, but they may be improving from the crappy range merely into the bad range. I would say that a reasonable increase in arm strength would be about 25%... which in the wider scheme of things means a guy that can only throw 40 yards would only increase to 50 yards.
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Old 03-31-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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From the 703. DMV.
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Old 03-31-2013, 01:43 PM    (permalink
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http://blogs.nfl.com/2013/03/30/ray-...-tech-pro-day/

Ray Holley, RB Louisiana Tech

5'8, 194 lbs
4.57, 4.56
37.5" Vertical
9'11" Broad Jump
4.15 Shuttle
6.85 3-Cone
27 bench reps!

Umm....dude is jacked. Looks way bigger than 194.

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Old 04-01-2013, 07:43 AM    (permalink
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Small world, we just moved from Charlottesville last year. We just need a 540
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:04 PM    (permalink
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From the 703. DMV.
Where in 703 you live? I'm in Prince William County.
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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Did Tank Carradine have a pro day?
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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Did Tank Carradine have a pro day?
He's having his own workout 4/20

Keep your paws off him
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:20 PM    (permalink
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He's having his own workout 4/20

Keep your paws off him
We need a fresh crop of pass rushers to rush Brady with. He's ours (depending on his pro day numbers)
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Old 04-01-2013, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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Cooper Taylor had a great pro day - ran a 4.58 and 4.49 40 36 1/2 in vert, 10'7" broad jump, 4.29 short shuttle, 6.96 three cone and 23 reps - he did this all as a 6'4 228lb safety. Not sure why this guy is not getting more exposure - could be the perfect type of safety to cover all these tight ends that are running amok in the league.
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Old 04-01-2013, 02:12 PM    (permalink
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Cooper Taylor had a great pro day - ran a 4.58 and 4.49 40 36 1/2 in vert, 10'7" broad jump, 4.29 short shuttle, 6.96 three cone and 23 reps - he did this all as a 6'4 228lb safety. Not sure why this guy is not getting more exposure - could be the perfect type of safety to cover all these tight ends that are running amok in the league.
brasho - Fairfax County )

Cooper is one of those guys who isn't getting much draft hype but I could see him going higher than he's currently being projected. He missed a lot of games last season, I guess injury.

He may not be a lockdown guy in coverage, but which team wouldn't want the next Cam Chancellor??
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Old 04-01-2013, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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brasho - Fairfax County )

Cooper is one of those guys who isn't getting much draft hype but I could see him going higher than he's currently being projected. He missed a lot of games last season, I guess injury.

He may not be a lockdown guy in coverage, but which team wouldn't want the next Cam Chancellor??

My guess is you know of him being from that Richmond area. Played in 10 games last year and won pretty much every honor there is for the level of play there. Taylor was thought to be a star in the making at Ga. Tech before an injury caused him to miss some time and eventually transfer.

I've seen 7th round projected for Cooper but also heard he's very much on the Jags radar. Not sure if he is working out for teams but based soley on his athletic ability he's probably a 4th round pick. I can think of a lot of safeties in the league that would have a hard time holding a candle to this guy.
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Old 04-02-2013, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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Austin Coleman, WR, Saint Francis-Fort Wayne (IN) (NAIA)

5'7-5/8" 184 lbs
4.40 40
39" Vertical
10'3" Broad Jump
4.09 Shuttle
6.75 3-Cone
11 Reps

http://www.saintfranciscougars.com/r...spx?rp_id=1326


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Old 04-03-2013, 06:20 AM    (permalink
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Only Tim Tebow throws like a javelin thrower. That's the reason he can throw far, but isn't very accurate. He muscles up. He has a "different" kind of arm strength.

QBs such as Drew Brees and Robert Griffin produce whip with their arms via external rotation. They use the smaller muscles to produce velocity. It's those smaller muscles that allow them finer control on the ball to be more accurate. It's what produces what people call "flick of the wrist"-looking throwing motions.

It's not just (static) strength that enables you to throw harder/farther, it's the elastically explosive properties of muscles as well.
Agreed. This is why Brady Quins 24 inch pythons are useless.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
We need a fresh crop of pass rushers to rush Brady with. He's ours (depending on his pro day numbers)
He'll be 5 months off a torn ACL. I very much doubt they're gonna have him do timed drills and even if they did the times would next to nothing. Will more than likely just be him running through positional drills, showing teams how well he's recovered.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:54 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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My guess is you know of him being from that Richmond area. Played in 10 games last year and won pretty much every honor there is for the level of play there. Taylor was thought to be a star in the making at Ga. Tech before an injury caused him to miss some time and eventually transfer.

I've seen 7th round projected for Cooper but also heard he's very much on the Jags radar. Not sure if he is working out for teams but based soley on his athletic ability he's probably a 4th round pick. I can think of a lot of safeties in the league that would have a hard time holding a candle to this guy.
I can't see him going quite that high. I say 5th or lower.
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Old 04-03-2013, 01:37 PM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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My guess is you know of him being from that Richmond area. Played in 10 games last year and won pretty much every honor there is for the level of play there. Taylor was thought to be a star in the making at Ga. Tech before an injury caused him to miss some time and eventually transfer.

I've seen 7th round projected for Cooper but also heard he's very much on the Jags radar. Not sure if he is working out for teams but based soley on his athletic ability he's probably a 4th round pick. I can think of a lot of safeties in the league that would have a hard time holding a candle to this guy.
He's probably off the radar because he's injured an awful lot. I think round 5 is as high as he goes.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:11 PM    (permalink
Babylon
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He's probably off the radar because he's injured an awful lot. I think round 5 is as high as he goes.
He played 10 games last year so not sure about all the injuries. Like the stocks i buy i don't care as much about where they've been just where they're going.
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Old 04-03-2013, 02:22 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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From the 703. DMV.
Cool. 757 all day here.
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:24 PM    (permalink
brasho
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Cool. 757 all day here.
Is that Virginia Beach?
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:34 PM    (permalink
SolidGold
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A couple interesting Pro Day results -

Kenny Tate S UMD - (6-3 1/2 221lbs) 4.76 & 4.66 40, 33 Inch vert, 7.20 3 cone drill, 4.34 short shuttle, 15 bench press lifts

Josh Lenz WR Iowa St. - (5-11 1/4 201lbs) 4.37 & 4.36 40, 38.5 inch vert, 10'1" broad jump, 4.20 short shuttle, 6.59 three cone, 60 yd shuttle 10.88, 21 bench press reps - pretty incredible workout - could be a sleeper
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:02 PM    (permalink
Babylon
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A couple interesting Pro Day results -

Kenny Tate S UMD - (6-3 1/2 221lbs) 4.76 & 4.66 40, 33 Inch vert, 7.20 3 cone drill, 4.34 short shuttle, 15 bench press lifts

Josh Lenz WR Iowa St. - (5-11 1/4 201lbs) 4.37 & 4.36 40, 38.5 inch vert, 10'1" broad jump, 4.20 short shuttle, 6.59 three cone, 60 yd shuttle 10.88, 21 bench press reps - pretty incredible workout - could be a sleeper
Josh Lentz has missed time because of injury but those numbers from his pro day are on a par with any receiver in this draft. He's pretty much the same athlete that Ryan Swope is without some of the notoriety. I'm surprised at how little buzz there is for some of these guys running in the 4.3s, like its easy to do.
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