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Old 04-02-2013, 05:47 PM    (permalink
TACKLE
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You don't have to love Geno or hate Nawrocki to realize there were clearly racial undertones to that scouting report - especially with the way it was contrasted against Barkley.
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Old 04-02-2013, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
Narwoki on Tyler Bray...

"Very immature and aloof. Has a short attention span and is not detail-oriented. Not a respected leader and often finds trouble because of a sense of entitlement. Uninspiring on-field body language and demeanor - not a commanding field general. Was pressed to become more of a leader and did not progress with too much of a relaxed, California cool personality."

.....................
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Originally Posted by TACKLE View Post
You don't have to love Geno or hate Nawrocki to realize there were clearly racial undertones to that scouting report - especially with the way it was contrasted against Barkley.
What am I missing?
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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You don't have to love Geno or hate Nawrocki to realize there were clearly racial undertones to that scouting report - especially with the way it was contrasted against Barkley.
Or you can just be imagining it because your a little too politically correct? He took it to Bray just as hard but since it does not have that race angle people don't seem to be to upset by it.
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:21 PM    (permalink
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An old thread has a lot of juicy stuff... http://draftcountdown.com/forum/show...light=nawrocki

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Originally Posted by Scott Wright View Post
From Pro Football Weekly's Eric Edholm on Twitter (http://twitter.com/Eric_Edholm):





As I've said, Nolan Nawrocki knows what he's doing and has an impeccable reputation. If Nolan is saying this stuff about Newton it's because he has excellent sources who are telling him.
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Nawrocki has never met Newton, stands by scouting report

Pro Football Weekly’s brutal scouting report on Auburn quarterback Cam Newton has been the hottest draft-related topic of the week. PFW draft analyst Nolan Nawrocki held a conference call on Wednesday, and PFT asked Nawrocki whether he’d spent any time with the 2010 Heisman winner before publishing the attack.

Nawrocki admitted he’s spent no time with Newton.

(That’s even less than top Newton supporter George Whitfield would’ve guessed.)

But Nawrocki “stands by” his evaluation.

“I feel very comfortable (with the scouting report),” Nawrocki said. “I stand by what was written. … I feel very strongly about what was written and stand by it fully.”

A comparison to Jimmy Clausen was made during the call. Nawrocki indicated that Clausen and Newton are similar in that they’re both “egotistical and disingenuous … scripted players with a sense of entitlement.”

Nawrocki says he’s heard the terms “fraud”, “narcissist”, and “con artist” mentioned when discussing Newton with scouts.

Instead of one-on-one time, Nawrocki attributed his scathing assessment of Newton’s character to “an enormous amount of research” in dealing with people in the league.

Said Nawrocki at one point on the call, “Three of the five decision makers I’ve spoken to in the last 24 hours expressed that Newton was disillusioned about his past.

“(And) anybody that does their homework and really digs hard will come away with a lot of the same conclusions.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...outing-report/
And I found my only post in that thread pretty funny...

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Quote:
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has a fake smile
Think about this statement for a second...
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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What am I missing?
I feel like you're being willfully naive here. No one is saying he types his scouting report in a white hood and hates all black prospects and loves all white prospects. Writing negative things about Bray doesn't change what he said about Geno. Difference is what he's saying about Bray coincides with what's been said about him for years at Tennessee where as the personal attacks he's made on Geno contradicts almost everything that has been said about Geno by the media and by people at West Virginia. Not only that, but he compares closet to Aaron Brooks and Akili Smith. Really? C'mon now. Also there's a pattern here of making ridiculously negative personal criticisms of black QB's and with the way the article was set up to juxtapose his mental and personality traits to Barkley, again I think it's a little naive not to notice any racial undertones.

Some people get really touchy when accusations of racism come out but why is it not okay to read between the lines and recognize for those racial tones but it's ok for him to accuse someone of essentially being too stupid, too lazy and too weak to lead a football team?
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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I feel like you're being willfully naive here. No one is saying he types his scouting report in a white hood and hates all black prospects and loves all white prospects. Writing negative things about Bray doesn't change what he said about Geno. Difference is what he's saying about Bray coincides with what's been said about him for years at Tennessee where as the personal attacks he's made on Geno contradicts almost everything that has been said about Geno by the media and by people at West Virginia. Not only that, but he compares closet to Aaron Brooks and Akili Smith. Really? C'mon now. Also there's a pattern here of making ridiculously negative personal criticisms of black QB's and with the way the article was set up to juxtapose his mental and personality traits to Barkley, again I think it's a little naive not to notice any racial undertones.

Some people get really touchy when accusations of racism come out but why is it not okay to read between the lines and recognize for those racial tones but it's ok for him to accuse someone of essentially being too stupid, too lazy and too weak to lead a football team?
No, there is a pattern for negative criticisms on prospects he's heard negative things about including Clausen and Bray... those of you calling racism are the only one's thinking about race...
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Old 04-02-2013, 06:39 PM    (permalink
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And the scouting reports for RGIII and Wilson are glowing... explain why that is the case if he's racist?

It's in your heads, not his.

I don't get why it can't be this...

"Wow that's a pretty crazy scouting report. But he doesn't have work ethic issues because of x, y, z I've seen read, heard, etc."

Instead it's narrative driven crap. "Oh he criticized a black QB AGAIN? - he MUST be racist!" I highly doubt a man who has chosen the profession to study football players is ******* racist.

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Old 04-02-2013, 07:28 PM    (permalink
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I was listening to the media defending Geno Smith and Nawrocki's credibility seems to be in trouble, but then former GM Charley Casserly (16 years in the NFL) also had negative things to say about Smith. Here is what Casserly said:

"I've been told he is a quiet individual and leadership may take a little time especially with a veteran player... As far as his work habits go, I'm told early in his career he did not work in the weight room as hard as he should, that he is improved now, but clearly when you look at his body it still needs development... As far as the learning ability goes, academically he was an underachiever, he struggled... I'm told leaning-system-wise it was a very simple system, that he should be able to learn an NFL system, but don't expect him to play right away..."

This draft will be fun. If Geno Smith becomes a top 8 pick, as expected, he will probably start right away. His QB coach said Smith is more ready for the NFL than Brandon Weeden.
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Old 04-02-2013, 07:31 PM    (permalink
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Instead it's narrative driven crap. "Oh he criticized a black QB AGAIN? - he MUST be racist!" I highly doubt a man who has chosen the profession to study football players is ******* racist.
Last thing I'll say on this...

Do you realize how ridiculous what you just said is? Do you really think that people who can see the subtext of his criticism think that he chose his profession to gain credibility than help the Rise of the Whites in America! through NFL Draft scouting reports? Is that REALLY what you think anyone is suggesting? smh.

There are racially slanted narratives all throughout sports towards both blacks and whites - many of which are not necessarily deliberate but they certainly exist. And that's not to say all of these are even untrue. Hell, we joked about it in the Kruger-Werner comparison thread. But to not be able to acknowledge that they exist....and then to say that these narratives can't show up in someone's commentary because they cover a professional sport made up of predominantly black athletes, is well....you pick the word.
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Old 04-02-2013, 07:32 PM    (permalink
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I was listening to the media defending Geno Smith and Nawrocki's credibility seems to be in trouble, but then former GM Charley Casserly (16 years in the NFL) also had negative things to say about Smith. Here is what Casserly said:

"I've been told he is a quiet individual and leadership may take a little time especially with a veteran player... As far as his work habits go, I'm told early in his career he did not work in the weight room as hard as he should, that he is improved now, but clearly when you look at his body it still needs development... As far as the learning ability goes, academically he was an underachiever, he struggled... I'm told leaning-system-wise it was a very simple system, that he should be able to learn an NFL system, but don't expect him to play right away..."

This draft will be fun. If Geno Smith becomes a top 8 pick, as expected, he will probably start right away. His QB coach said Smith is more ready for the NFL than Brandon Weeden.
If you added this to my mega post on the previous page it would make 4 instances of concerns with his leadership qualities.

Again, not whether or not he watches film.
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Old 04-02-2013, 07:37 PM    (permalink
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Last thing I'll say on this...

Do you realize how ridiculous what you just said is? Do you really think that people who can see the subtext of his criticism think that he chose his profession to gain credibility than help the Rise of the Whites in America! through NFL Draft scouting reports? Is that REALLY what you think anyone is suggesting? smh.

There are racially slanted narratives all throughout sports towards both blacks and whites - many of which are not necessarily deliberate but they certainly exist. And that's not to say all of these are even untrue. Hell, we joked about it in the Kruger-Werner comparison thread. But to not be able to acknowledge that they exist....and then to say that these narratives can't show up in someone's commentary because they cover a professional sport made up of predominantly black athletes, is well....you pick the word.
This is the disconnect. I see no subtext. I just see text. I don't think this is racially slanted at all. You do.

To me there are no "racial undertones" or "subconcious racism due to stereotypes." That's ******* racism.

I see no racism here. Just a hard-hitting scouting report. Just like the one he gave to Bray and apparently Clausen. Unlike the ones he gave to Wilson and RGIII.
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Old 04-02-2013, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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Charlie Casserly is much worse and more old school than Nawrocki.
Casserly was down on Wilson(size - like everyone else), RG3, Newton(who he said he wouldn't draft in the 1st round if at all).

Casserly is also the same genius who drafted Heath Shuler 3rd overall.

For Casserly, IMO his QB needs to have a certain 'look' about him in order to be considered a high first rounder. I didn't even need to hear Casserly's opinion on Geno to know what he thought.

WHen a professional draft analyst writes something as fact that he's neither confirmed or taken the time to fully corroborate, either that analyst is extremely lazy and sloppy in his own research about a prospect, or he has a bias.

The fact that people are even discussing whether or not Nawrocki has something against certain types of QBs speaks to the incompetence of his own background research regarding prospects, and I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.
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Old 04-02-2013, 09:16 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Roddoliver View Post
I was listening to the media defending Geno Smith and Nawrocki's credibility seems to be in trouble, but then former GM Charley Casserly (16 years in the NFL) also had negative things to say about Smith. Here is what Casserly said:

"I've been told he is a quiet individual and leadership may take a little time especially with a veteran player... As far as his work habits go, I'm told early in his career he did not work in the weight room as hard as he should, that he is improved now, but clearly when you look at his body it still needs development... As far as the learning ability goes, academically he was an underachiever, he struggled... I'm told leaning-system-wise it was a very simple system, that he should be able to learn an NFL system, but don't expect him to play right away..."

This draft will be fun. If Geno Smith becomes a top 8 pick, as expected, he will probably start right away. His QB coach said Smith is more ready for the NFL than Brandon Weeden.
Okay, WHAT?? What is old Charlie talking about? I guess Mike Glennon must need some breast milk, huh Charlie?
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:27 AM    (permalink
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I'm starting to think I may have jumped the gun on Narocki's assessment of Smith.

The media highlighted the bad part, but he wrote up a long detailed report, and that was just part of it.

Plus, we must remember, that what he wrote may not necessarily be his own opinion, but that of the league sources that he has. Sometimes we shoot the messenger, this could very well be a case of that.

Now could he have worded it better? Absolutely. And that's where I have a problem with it. But it could be an overreaction on my part as well. I think we should take a step back and do more hw before we throw this guy over the bridge.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:23 AM    (permalink
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You don't have to love Geno or hate Nawrocki to realize there were clearly racial undertones to that scouting report - especially with the way it was contrasted against Barkley.
There's nothing wrong with Barkely apparently. Nothing.
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Old 04-03-2013, 08:34 AM    (permalink
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If anyone can find me a scouting report by him where he trashes another prospect in the same manner as Geno or Cam then he'll have some credibility. Does anyone have that?
Well was Nawricki around when JaMarcus Russell, Joey Harrington, Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, David Klingler, Andre Ware, Heath Shuler, Matt Leinart, Alex Smith were being considered for top 1, 3, 10 picks?

Here's the thing: Take 100 scouts, and they will not agree on almost any specific player. They all agreed that Tom Brady was a long shot to stick in the NFL. That Tony Tomo & Kurt Warner were not worthy of being drafted, etc.

What I like about Nawricki is he doesn't ride both sides of the fence on some of these lightning rods. A lot of these punks, even on the Mouse Network like Clayton, McShay, Kiper, Schefter, or that ass-clown Merril Hoge, they will ride both sides so they can be seemingly right no matter what.... they don't go out on a limb.
Nawricki mans up on these prospects and he's way out on that limb.

Whether he does it because he wants attention (perhaps), is racist (no way), or just because he is really confident on the attitudes of these 2 particular players (he nailed the stuff about Cam, as we saw all last year when guys like Cris Carter & Mark Shlereth were ripping Newton's attitude).

I'm just tired, and sick of, the weak, irresponsible labels of racism being thrown at him.
It's almost criminal when a few paranoid schitzophrenics throw that label at someone in cases like this. Pathetic.

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Old 04-03-2013, 10:07 AM    (permalink
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Well was Nawricki around when JaMarcus Russell, Joey Harrington, Ryan Leaf, Akili Smith, David Klingler, Andre Ware, Heath Shuler, Matt Leinart, Alex Smith were being considered for top 1, 3, 10 picks?

Here's the thing: Take 100 scouts, and they will not agree on almost any specific player. They all agreed that Tom Brady was a long shot to stick in the NFL. That Tony Tomo & Kurt Warner were not worthy of being drafted, etc.

What I like about Nawricki is he doesn't ride both sides of the fence on some of these lightning rods. A lot of these punks, even on the Mouse Network like Clayton, McShay, Kiper, Schefter, or that ass-clown Merril Hoge, they will ride both sides so they can be seemingly right no matter what.... they don't go out on a limb.
Nawricki mans up on these prospects and he's way out on that limb.

Whether he does it because he wants attention (perhaps), is racist (no way), or just because he is really confident on the attitudes of these 2 particular players (he nailed the stuff about Cam, as we saw all last year when guys like Cris Carter & Mark Shlereth were ripping Newton's attitude).

I'm just tired, and sick of, the weak, irresponsible labels of racism being thrown at him.
It's almost criminal when a few paranoid schitzophrenics throw that label at someone in cases like this. Pathetic.
Hodge? You mean the one guy who clearly said that Jay Cutler was a far better QB prospect than both Leinart and Young? Yeah, okay.

You can be sick of racism as I am, but you can't wish it away. Racism is oftern subtle and dare I say even unintentional at times. But there is no question whatsoever that some of the criticism toward some players is GROSSLY OUT OF PROPORTION to other players along racial lines. I talked about this several weeks ago regarding first Manual and then Smith. I saw QBs at the Senior Bowl practices not named Manuel throwing balls in the dirt four feet in front of receivers when they weren't throwing balls to players on the defense, yet all I heard was a plethora of excuses made for them and how they were all first round picks and better than E.J. Manuel. Likewise, even though Smith is not a top tier prospect, he is clearly the best QB prospect in this years draft and the best pure passer by far. He was downgraded in part of all things for his perceived lack of athleticism and unwillingness to run, the implication being he can't possibly be a pocket passer. But of course, Mike Glennon can.

Now, let's contrast the critism of Smith compared to Matt Leinart. When Matt Leinart showed us poor arm strength, we were told he could make up for it with great timing and head play. When Leinart went back to school his senior year to bang more co-eds, it was because this kid just loves college football with his teamates. When unflattering pictures of him emerged, it was because he was enjoying life. And when draft time came around he was taken high and proved to be a huge bust. Now, while I can't say anyone anyone's opinion of Leinart at the time was wrong, it goes to show that prospects can be perceived very differently, largely around racial lines. Why was Leinart not considered lazy and immature? How come no one really considered the talent he was playing with? How come his lack of arm strength and his ability not to make all the throws was not highlighted (except for Merril Hodge, that is)?

If you are sick of racism, then don't bury your head in the dirt and wish to be in Kansas.

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Old 04-03-2013, 10:18 AM    (permalink
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Casserly is also the same genius who drafted Heath Shuler 3rd overall.
[/quote]

Heath Shuler is an American hero. And technically he drafted Gus Frerotte and his 25 year career in like the 7th round :D
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:24 AM    (permalink
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Let's be honest though, some people try to find racism in everything. I agree with Black Bolt that some people can be too quick to dismiss racism, but it works the other way too. I don't know if Nawrocki is racist or not, but I need more evidence than two harshly-worded scouting reports before I start accusing him.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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Hodge? You mean the one guy who clearly said that Jay Cutler was a far better QB prospect than both Leinart and Young? Yeah, okay.

You can be sick of racism as I am, but you can't wish it away. Racism is oftern subtle and dare I say even unintentional at times. But there is no question whatsoever that some of the criticism toward some players is GROSSLY OUT OF PROPORTION to other players along racial lines. I talked about this several weeks ago regarding first Manual and then Smith. I saw QBs at the Senior Bowl practices not named Manuel throwing balls in the dirt four feet in front of receivers when they weren't throwing balls to players on the defense, yet all I heard was a plethora of excuses made for them and how they were all first round picks and better than E.J. Manuel. Likewise, even though Smith is not a top tier prospect, he is clearly the best QB prospect in this years draft and the best pure passer by far. He was downgraded in part of all things for his perceived lack of athleticism and unwillingness to run, the implication being he can't possibly be a pocket passer. But of course, Mike Glennon can.

Now, let's contrast the critism of Smith compared to Matt Leinart. When Matt Leinart showed us poor arm strength, we were told he could make up for it with great timing and head play. When Leinart went back to school his senior year to bang more co-eds, it was because this kid just loves college football with his teamates. When unflattering pictures of him emerged, it was because he was enjoying life. And when draft time came around he was taken high and proved to be a huge bust. Now, while I can't say anyone anyone's opinion of Leinart at the time was wrong, it goes to show that prospects can be perceived very differently, largely around racial lines. Why was Leinart not considered lazy and immature? How come no one really considered the talent he was playing with? How come his lack of arm strength and his ability not to make all the throws was not highlighted (except for Merril Hodge, that is)?

If you are sick of racism, then don't bury your head in the dirt and wish to be in Kansas.
I agree with that but it is more often then not a white player being labeled a hard working, high-motor, blue-collar over achiever or any white WR being compared to Wes Welker. It seems to only be a big deal when an assessment comes up about a black QB.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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I agree with that but it is more often then not a white player being labeled a hard working, high-motor, blue-collar over achiever or any white WR being compared to Wes Welker. It seems to only be a big deal when an assessment comes up about a black QB.
Being stereotyped as hard working. Oh no, I feel so bad for all those white players.

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Old 04-03-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Being stereotyped as hard working. Oh no, I feel so bad for all those white players.

Hardworking in the context that they do not have athletic ability. But yea your response is exactly what I expected.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:47 AM    (permalink
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You know the quickest way to concede an argument? Play the race card.

Nawrocki calls them like he sees (or hears) them. He was just as hard on Bray but because he's white it's a non-issue. It's hilarious to watch people champion based on skill color. Where's the love for Tyler Bray? It's obvious Nawrocki has an agenda for keeping the white man down.

On a serious note. The rumblings that Geno was a poor leader have been about since during the season why is it a crime to rehash it during the offseason because he's black?

I seem to recall Geno throwing his helmet around on the sideline. Pouting during the game while losing and generally being the exact player Nolan just described.

Quote:
...his mental toughness has been questioned as he appeared uncontrollably discouraged on the sideline
That was Kansas State.

Or how about Syracuse where he threw his helmet and put a coat on while his teammates were trying to get the ball back and then turning tail and being the first person off the field.

The shoe fits and in this case it doesn't matter if it's black, white, brown, orange, or neon-pink.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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Hardworking in the context that they do not have athletic ability. But yea your response is exactly what I expected.
Well you know, some stereotypes are true...

Black people ARE more athletic. That's just the way it is. There is a reason behind that stereotype.

It's kind of different when the stereotype questions a races intelligence. Especially when it is only a stereotype in the first place, because white people liked to think they were superior to blacks.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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Maybe I'm forgetful, but has anyone on this board just come out and said Nawrocki is a racist???

Personally, I think Nawrocki finds certain kinds of QBs 'unrelatable' to him, and it's reflected in some of his evaluations.

When someone can be so far off in something that can be easily confirmed by talking not only to other scouts, but Geno Smith's coaches and teammates, specifically referring to his work ethic and preparation....how does that whiff happen???

This wasn't a simple difference of opinion in the scouting community; EVERYONE who's commented on Nawrocki's draft report about Geno Smith concerning his work ethic has universally said on this point Nawrocki isn't just in error, what he said wasn't true.

This is what really bothers me about Nawrocki.

Either Nawrocki is really sloppy in gathering data for his draft reports, or he evaluates particular prospects with a built-in bias, except this time he didn't filter his own perceptions through the proper sources who know better.

Nawrocki could have said in hindsight he believes Geno Smith will need more intensive film study in the pros to eliminate his bad habits in college.
No, Nawrocki said with total certainty that Geno had a poor work ethic and poor game preparation.

WHen you're that wrong on a character evaluation you're presenting as fact, where is that coming from??

That's why I said Nawrocki has a deeper bias against certain players he needs to resolve if he wants to be taken seriously.
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