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Old 04-03-2013, 04:52 PM    (permalink
princefielder28
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
I wish we could talk about Geno Smith in the Geno Smith thread...
That'd be fun.
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:59 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Black Bolt View Post
Hodge? You mean the one guy who clearly said that Jay Cutler was a far better QB prospect than both Leinart and Young? Yeah, okay.

If you are sick of racism, then don't bury your head in the dirt and wish to be in Kansas.
You can't be hinting that Cutler is great right? How many playoff games in his career has he won again?

I am sick of racism, but this isn't it. Neither are 100% of NFL cornerbacks being black.

I didn't like what I saw of Geno Smith on the field last year against decent defenses. But I love Eddie Lacy.
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:12 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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You can't be hinting that Cutler is great right? How many playoff games in his career has he won again?

I am sick of racism, but this isn't it. Neither are 100% of NFL cornerbacks being black.

I didn't like what I saw of Geno Smith on the field last year against decent defenses. But I love Eddie Lacy.
Sir, you discounted Hodge as being a media sheep who is scared to step outside the box. I pointed out that he indeed stepped outside the box at a time when everyone didn't express any clear separation between Cutler, Young and Leinart. That flies in the face of your accusation.
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:14 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
Many of the similar negatives described in his scouting report were issues both of these QBs had as well.

Decision-making, locking on to targets, mechanics, footwork.
Again, why Smith and Brooks? Why not David Carr who is a far better comparison at the #1 QB in a draft class?
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:15 PM    (permalink
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Seriously. I understand the need for racial sensitivity, but I'm not ready to make the jump to this scouting report being immediately racist.

Batsandgats and black bolt together. It's about to get real racist again.

Um, we are not together. This clown has been MIA up until now, I've been here. What does that tell you?
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:19 PM    (permalink
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Many of the similar negatives described in his scouting report were issues both of these QBs had as well.

Decision-making, locking on to targets, mechanics, footwork.
Smith's decision making is excellent compared to those two. Which one of them completed his passes at a 70 rate? A. Smith was regarded as very raw and was draft solely on his incredible measurables- Geno doesn't have incredible measurables. Brooks had a measure of success as a 4th rounder, Smith had no success as the 3rd pick in the draft. A. Smith started one year. The only comparison is that all three gentleman are black, everything else is different.
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:29 PM    (permalink
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Again, many different scouts have many differing opinions on many QBs.
There were plenty of scouts who wouldn't touch JaMarcus Russell. Or Vince Young. Or Ryan Leaf. Or Matt Leinart.

LenWhale White had a terrible attitude.

There's no racism in any of their opinions of these guys.

Calling someone racist for things like that is akin to calling someone *** because they wear pink. Both are unacceptable, yet people like you keep slinging the race card around and it's reprehensible. Shameful.

Nawricki doesn't dislike anyone because they are black. Get over it.
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Old 04-03-2013, 05:31 PM    (permalink
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Sir, you discounted Hodge as being a media sheep who is scared to step outside the box. I pointed out that he indeed stepped outside the box at a time when everyone didn't express any clear separation between Cutler, Young and Leinart. That flies in the face of your accusation.
Just because he was kinda right in this one case?
Have you ever talked to a professional scout?
They ain't always right. They are wrong half the time on average.
And they don't all agree on any one prospect.

Merril Hoge is wrong more than he's right. He's an ass clown.
Just because he could run well back in the day does not make him a better evaluator than a Mayock, Nawricki, Wright, Kiper, etc.

What did Hoge say about Aaron Rodgers?
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:07 PM    (permalink
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Smith's decision making is excellent compared to those two. Which one of them completed his passes at a 70 rate? A. Smith was regarded as very raw and was draft solely on his incredible measurables- Geno doesn't have incredible measurables. Brooks had a measure of success as a 4th rounder, Smith had no success as the 3rd pick in the draft. A. Smith started one year. The only comparison is that all three gentleman are black, everything else is different.
I'm going to spin this back to Geno Smith because I'd rather talk about the player than stroll down memory lane in what would become a tiring and pointless tangent.

Geno Smith's 70% comp. rate in no way highlights him as an excellent decision maker, especially as it projects to a very different game in a much more complex and high pressure environment.

I said this earlier in this thread, I don't think his stats are worthless to evaluate at all.

But his season totals look phenomenal. 70% completion, 4000+ yds, 42/6!

Also for the season, 8.12 ypa... not that great and actually a step below his junior year...

But more importantly you have to look at his stats in context. He regressed DRASTICALLY after the Texas game.

And his 70% comp. stat is skewed by some truly dreadful pass defenses.

His four best statistical games BY FAR came against the following pass defenses:

Marshall (91st out of 120 FBS teams)
James Madison (FCS)
Kansas (114th)
Baylor (119th)

In those games, against those **** defenses, his comp. % is an insane 90%. I posed this question before. Do you think it was that he was just THAT amazing in those contests or that perhaps the defenses lacked the talent/athleticism/defensive coaching aptitude to even stay on the field? They clearly couldn't stop the pass much at all against other teams either...

So that helped his stats...

And some of his bad games were against middling pass defenses as well...
And I went over his losing streak in another post. And it's pretty discouraging. I mean multiple games with sub-5.0 ypa. A STREAK of poor play, too. And that's how he finished his career... This is a guy who improved steadily from so. to jr. then first half of sr. was outstanding.... then his production dipped MIGHTILY after TTU mixed it up against him... then these average/below average passing defenses like KSU step up and give them that much trouble? That's a gigantic red flag if I've ever seen one. It's not like the Baylor game was his pinnacle and then he had the Texas game (good performance) and then maybe hit a rough patch but still showed through. No, they figured him/holgo out and neither were able to stop the ship form sinking...

Besides his simplified reads and bunch of shallows, screens, and sticks that pad his comp. % there's the eye in the sky.

He locks on to his primary. A lot. Sometimes he forces throws. Sometimes that works (the Texas TD was a brilliant physical throw + catch but he's making that throw whether or not James Harrison is baiting Kurt Warner to inside the 10). It'll be an adjustment at the next level to say the least. And he did make some nice progressions. But it's real basic concepts.

He has the potential to become a better decision maker and maybe he'll do fine with a more complex offense but I wouldn't put that as a strength on his scouting report, despite the season total 70% comp. rate.

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Old 04-03-2013, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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Between this thread and the Chiefs #1 pick thread the Geno Smith topic has been beat to death. Can't say he's been ignored in here.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:17 PM    (permalink
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Anyone else think Nolan Nawrocki has a connection with Tom Condon? First he trashes Cam Newton (second QB in the draft was Blaine Gabbert, who is represented by Condon.)

Fast forward a couple years, and he's trashing the guy rated ahead of Matt Barkley (represented by Tom Condon.) Cam had legit issue's, but I'm calling BS. I've never heard this stuff about Geno before.
Very possible this whole scouting furor was generated by an agent or team.
Wouldn't be the first time.

EDIT: Sorry, but when any QB completes 7 out of every passes he throws, you can nitpick how awful those other 3 incompletions were. Whatever.
But then you factor in throwing only 6 picks in 518 attempts, and that's a rough indicator of what kind of decisions Geno makes with the football.

How can you say Smith regressed after the Texas game?? Now the standard is if a prospect isn't completing 80% of his passes, he's playing poorly??lol

Geno played well enough to win remaining games against TCU, OU, OKlSt.
In none of those games would I claim his play had 'regressed'.

Geno has never thrown more than 7 INTs in any season at WVU.
NO QB in this class can come close to making that claim.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:38 PM    (permalink
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Very possible this whole scouting furor was generated by an agent or team.
Wouldn't be the first time.
It's actually not very possible at all. It would be a horribly ineffective conspiracy as teams employ their own scouts and probably don't give a **** what Narwoki says.

And that he didn't really endorse Barkley much.

And he's been working for the magazine for 10+ years...

It's painfully obvious that there's no hidden agenda here and this is just a dude who puts out hard-hitting scouting reports.

Mayock and Scott Wright have vouched for him. Maybe they're working for Condon too

Y'all have to read the full ******* scouting report. I think this is pretty fair to Barkley... if he had hidden agenda for Condon (lol I can't believe I'm even....) he probalby would have... ya know, endorsed the kid as a high draft pick...

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QB Matt Barkley, #7
USC
PFW Grade: 6.03
Ht: 6-21/2 | Wt: 227 | Sp: 4.95e | Arm: 305/8 | Hand: 101/8
Notes: His father, Les, was an All-American water polo player at USC (1976-79) and brother, Sam, is a hurdler on the USC track team. A four-year starter who threw for 9,487 yards and 78 touchdowns as a California prep. Suffered a broken collarbone in his first year of high school, when he was allowed to call his own plays. Became the first junior to be named Gatorade National Player of the Year in 2007 after throwing for 3,576 yards and 35 touchdowns. Enrolled at USC in time for spring practice in ’09 and was named the starter in the fall as a true freshman. In 12 starts, he completed 211-of-352 pass attempts (59.9 percent) for 2,735 yards with 15 touchdowns and 14 interceptions. Became the first USC true freshman ever to start an opener and the first true freshman to start an opener at QB for an AP Top Five team since Michigan’s Rick Leach in 1975. Missed the Washington game with a bruised right shoulder. Had surgery on his right wrist to relieve stiffness and inflammation prior to ’10 spring practice. In the fall, threw for 236-377-2,791-26-12 (62.6) in 12 starts. Was sidelined for second half of the Oregon State game and against Notre Dame with a high ankle sprain. Had a record-setting ’11 campaign with 308-446-3,528-39-7 (69.1) in 12 starts. Set the Pac-12 record for touchdown passes and broke the school mark for completion percentage. Became the top signalcaller in USC history in ’12 after hitting 246-387-3,273-36-15 (63.6) in 11 starts. Suffered a sprained AC joint (type III) in his throwing (right) shoulder on a hit against UCLA and missed the final two games of his collegiate career. Finished with 20 USC career, season and game marks with 10 also being Pac-12 records. Was the winner of the Wuerffel Trophy, awarded for exemplary community service with athletic and academic achievement. Was USC’s first-ever three-time captain and had a 34-13 record in 47 career starts. Did not work out at the Combine to rest his throwing shoulder.
Positives: Thickly built. Experienced four-year starter in a pro-style offense with progression NFL reads. Terrific football intelligence. Good decision-maker — knows when and where to go with the ball. Throws on balance with a smooth, fluid delivery. Good enough arm strength to connect deep — can drop it in a bucket and showed improved deep accuracy as a senior. Good short-to-intermediate accuracy and overall anticipation. Tough and will deliver with pressure barreling down — good poise and on-field demeanor. Can sidestep the rush and manipulate coverage with his eyes. Outstanding intangibles and leadership traits — commands respect from teammates. Rallied comeback wins throughout his career, from the time he was the first freshman to start for a top-5-ranked team since 1975 against Ohio State, to Oregon (2011) and Utah (2012). Very intelligent with an engaging personality. Team tempo-setter. Can elevate a locker room, uplift an organization and represent a franchise with integrity. Very strong support structure. Is a pro’s pro and football is very important to him. Highly determined.
Negatives: Has short arms and average grip strength (student manager was fired for deflating balls). Does not snap it quickly and spiral is not tight. Heavy-footed and cannot improvise or create with his feet. Cannot easily manipulate his arm and throwing platform under duress and the ball dies when he can’t step into it. Does not drive the ball down the field with high RPMs. Not quick-eyed — many throws are pre-determined at the line, and he will hold the ball too long on some progressions. Can be streaky (see Washington). Never beat Stanford’s pro-style defense in four years.
Summary: A cool, confident, rhythm passer who suffered as a senior behind a leaky, injured offensive line that left little time to throw. Looked much more comfortable as a junior with an elite left tackle. Is slow-footed and could be more prone to injury in the pros and take some time to adapt to live NFL bullets. Leadership traits, strength of character and football IQ will allow to operate at a high level in a play-action passing game with a clean pocket and a talented cast of receivers. Can become a very solid NFL starter and thrive with a strong supporting cast. A cross between Drew Brees and Colt McCoy.
NFL projection: First-round pick.
CAN become a SOLID starter WITH a strong supporting cast?

WOW THIS GUY MUST BE WORKING FOR HIS AGENT!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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Very possible this whole scouting furor was generated by an agent or team.
Wouldn't be the first time.

EDIT: Sorry, but when any QB completes 7 out of every passes he throws, you can nitpick how awful those other 3 incompletions were.

Never did that. At all. I separated his games is all.

Whatever.
But then you factor in throwing only 6 picks in 518 attempts, and that's a rough indicator of what kind of decisions Geno makes with the football.

A very, very rough context-less indicator, yes.

How can you say Smith regressed after the Texas game?? Now the standard is if a prospect isn't completing 80% of his passes, he's playing poorly??lol

You can watch the cutups or look at the game log - or BOTH!

Geno played well enough to win remaining games against TCU, OU, OKlSt.
In none of those games would I claim his play had 'regressed'.


Fair enough I guess. He did have 260 yards on 53 attempts vs TCU which is pretty freaking horrible. But yes they could have won that game...

Geno has never thrown more than 7 INTs in any season at WVU.

Agreed.

NO QB in this class can come close to making that claim.

Agreed. But I think we can go a little further in our analysis of him as a prospect than this...

And I don't want to talk about the other QBs really. I immediately regret posting that Barkley scouting report to make another point I shouldn't even be arguing about.
You in bold. My replies are not.
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Old 04-03-2013, 06:55 PM    (permalink
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It's actually not very possible at all. It would be a horribly ineffective conspiracy as teams employ their own scouts and probably don't give a **** what Narwoki says.

And that he didn't really endorse Barkley much.

And he's been working for the magazine for 10+ years...

It's painfully obvious that there's no hidden agenda here and this is just a dude who puts out hard-hitting scouting reports.

Mayock and Scott Wright have vouched for him. Maybe they're working for Condon too

Y'all have to read the full ******* scouting report. I think this is pretty fair to Barkley... if he had hidden agenda for Condon (lol I can't believe I'm even....) he probalby would have... ya know, endorsed the kid as a high draft pick...



CAN become a SOLID starter WITH a strong supporting cast?

WOW THIS GUY MUST BE WORKING FOR HIS AGENT!!!!!!!!
Lmao you mad bro? Agent hype is real, just look at what happened at the combine this season. Zach Ertz has 31 3/4 arms and is labeled as t-rex. Sharrif Floyd has 31 3/4 arms and skyrockets to a top 5 pick.

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A cross between Drew Brees and Colt McCoy
That's probably the kindest comparison I've heard

Quote:
NFL projection: First-round pick
That's every agent's goal... Right?

I'm not trying to say I have concrete proof it's a conspiracy. It could all be true. I just think it's veeeeeeery fishy, as I haven't heard any of this stuff anywhere else.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:00 PM    (permalink
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You haven't heard Matt Barkley as a first round pick anywhere else?
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:03 PM    (permalink
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You haven't heard Matt Barkley as a first round pick anywhere else?
Oh, I have. I just don't see that scouting report as proof there's no funny biz going on. I've seen him high as mid 1st, low as the 3rd. Just pointing out he did put Bark on the high end of the spectrum.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:05 PM    (permalink
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Mayock vouched for Nawrocki generally speaking, but he never endorsed Nawrocki's assessment of Geno's preparation or work habits. Mayock never said he agreed with him.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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Mayock vouched for Nawrocki generally speaking, but he never endorsed Nawrocki's assessment of Geno's preparation or work habits. Mayock never said he agreed with him.
Not directly no. But there's this...
Quote:
NFL Network's Mike Mayock said that he "couldn't take Geno Smith in the top 10, probably the top 20."
"I can't stand this whole quarterback class," Mayock added. This entire quarterback class is confusing to a lot of people, and Mayock is no different. After watching Geno work out on March 14, Mayock said the West Virginia quarterback is "absolutely" a top 10 talent. With that said, talent does not always equal the full evaluation, so Geno's negatives now appear to keep the passer out of that area for Mayock.
If you read between the lines, he has questions, to say the least, about Smith that aren't related to his arm talent.

Sounds pretty similar to what Arians had to say.

And Casserly.
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Old 04-03-2013, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Not directly no. But there's this...


If you read between the lines, he has questions, to say the least, about Smith that aren't related to his arm talent.

Sounds pretty similar to what Arians had to say.

And Casserly.
I read that Arians wasn't "wowed." What else did he say about Geno? I couldn't dig up anything much besides that. IMO, that's fair. Look at last years QB class.

Here's a fan's take on Casserly's assessment on Geno:

Quote:
I'm a fan of Charley Casserly's expertise with the draft. He seems to have a real pulse of what GM's are thinking. Just 3 days ago he was asked about Geno Smith's draft value and he said he expected Smith to slide to the end of round #1 and that some quarterback hungry team like the Cardinals/Jets/Bills would trade up into the late first round to take him.

Switch to last night on Path to the Draft and Charley gives his latest Mock Draft and has Geno moving up to the Cards selection at #7. He made some comments that made me think he might have some insight into what the Cards are looking at in a quarterback. He said Geno fits what Bruce Arians is looking for in a quarterback and specifically praised Smith's deep ball accuracy which is a prerequisite for the Arians offense.

I just found it really interesting that Casserly who doesn't usually get caught up in the draft buzz did a complete 180 switch on Smith in only a couple of days. His comments just days ago were very much that Smith was a borderline 1st round talent to last night where he said Smith is a legit first round guy had me curious about what caused the change.
Maybe he got in cahoots with Geno's agent
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:44 PM    (permalink
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People forget that a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, people would have laughed in your face if you said Geno Smith would be drafted higher than Barkley would.
The more scouts I hear from candidly, the more I hear they have not forgotten that, and they are not swayed by Smith's hot start to the 2011 season.

We'll see. It's going to be an interesting draft that's for sure.
Let's start it up.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:53 PM    (permalink
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Again, many different scouts have many differing opinions on many QBs.
There were plenty of scouts who wouldn't touch JaMarcus Russell. Or Vince Young. Or Ryan Leaf. Or Matt Leinart.

LenWhale White had a terrible attitude.

There's no racism in any of their opinions of these guys.

Calling someone racist for things like that is akin to calling someone *** because they wear pink. Both are unacceptable, yet people like you keep slinging the race card around and it's reprehensible. Shameful.

Nawricki doesn't dislike anyone because they are black. Get over it.
Why are you talking ****? Maybe you didn't notice, but you are the only one even using the term "racist." Says a lot about you. And how the hell do you know whether or not Nawricki is a racist or not unless you are him? Give me a break and stop defending this nobody. In case you didn't know, racism, prejudice, stereotyping, all that stuff is alive and well outside of la la land. For you to be so naive as to act as if it doesn't exist is both embarrassing and sad.
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Old 04-03-2013, 10:55 PM    (permalink
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People forget that a year ago, two years ago, three years ago, people would have laughed in your face if you said Geno Smith would be drafted higher than Barkley would.
The more scouts I hear from candidly, the more I hear they have not forgotten that, and they are not swayed by Smith's hot start to the 2011 season.

We'll see. It's going to be an interesting draft that's for sure.
Let's start it up.
Yeah, and Brady Quin would have been the #1 pick in the draft if he came out as a junior, so what's your point? Barkley's extra year of exposure allowed everyone to take a deep breath and realize he is likely the latest USC QB bust.

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Old 04-03-2013, 10:58 PM    (permalink
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Not directly no. But there's this...


If you read between the lines, he has questions, to say the least, about Smith that aren't related to his arm talent.

Sounds pretty similar to what Arians had to say.

And Casserly.
When asked on television, he flat out stated any questions he has about Smith is related to football and not character.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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I'm going to spin this back to Geno Smith because I'd rather talk about the player than stroll down memory lane in what would become a tiring and pointless tangent.

Geno Smith's 70% comp. rate in no way highlights him as an excellent decision maker, especially as it projects to a very different game in a much more complex and high pressure environment.

I said this earlier in this thread, I don't think his stats are worthless to evaluate at all.

But his season totals look phenomenal. 70% completion, 4000+ yds, 42/6!

Also for the season, 8.12 ypa... not that great and actually a step below his junior year...

But more importantly you have to look at his stats in context. He regressed DRASTICALLY after the Texas game.

And his 70% comp. stat is skewed by some truly dreadful pass defenses.

His four best statistical games BY FAR came against the following pass defenses:

Marshall (91st out of 120 FBS teams)
James Madison (FCS)
Kansas (114th)
Baylor (119th)

In those games, against those **** defenses, his comp. % is an insane 90%. I posed this question before. Do you think it was that he was just THAT amazing in those contests or that perhaps the defenses lacked the talent/athleticism/defensive coaching aptitude to even stay on the field? They clearly couldn't stop the pass much at all against other teams either...

So that helped his stats...

And some of his bad games were against middling pass defenses as well...
And I went over his losing streak in another post. And it's pretty discouraging. I mean multiple games with sub-5.0 ypa. A STREAK of poor play, too. And that's how he finished his career... This is a guy who improved steadily from so. to jr. then first half of sr. was outstanding.... then his production dipped MIGHTILY after TTU mixed it up against him... then these average/below average passing defenses like KSU step up and give them that much trouble? That's a gigantic red flag if I've ever seen one. It's not like the Baylor game was his pinnacle and then he had the Texas game (good performance) and then maybe hit a rough patch but still showed through. No, they figured him/holgo out and neither were able to stop the ship form sinking...

Besides his simplified reads and bunch of shallows, screens, and sticks that pad his comp. % there's the eye in the sky.

He locks on to his primary. A lot. Sometimes he forces throws. Sometimes that works (the Texas TD was a brilliant physical throw + catch but he's making that throw whether or not James Harrison is baiting Kurt Warner to inside the 10). It'll be an adjustment at the next level to say the least. And he did make some nice progressions. But it's real basic concepts.

He has the potential to become a better decision maker and maybe he'll do fine with a more complex offense but I wouldn't put that as a strength on his scouting report, despite the season total 70% comp. rate.
It's hard to put a negative spin on a 70% completion rate, but I see that hasn't stopped you from switching to his average yards of completion. Why don't you come out of the closet and say you hate the guy? You want to believe the bull crap report so bad. Oh, he writes for a magazine- that settles it! Any credibility this clown had just went out the door with this slanted report that no one else will confirm. Funny how you tried to spin that Mayock agreed with him. Mayock said his evaluation was incomplete and that any questions he had about Smith were football related, NOT CHARACTER RELATED. The bulk of the criticism the N guy rendered was character related. Mayock is a company man who is not going to call out some guy that no one ever heard of until yesterday. Calm down son, Smith WILL be the first QB pick taken, not Barkley or whoever the hell else you are rooting for.
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Old 04-03-2013, 11:29 PM    (permalink
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He is a good qb but you can't deny that the system he plays in will lead to a high completion percentage. Its a simplistic qb friendly offense that Dana Holgerson said himself that he could install in 3 days.

Brian Billick on Geno Smith's leadership, says he has a casual demeanor and it is a legitimate concern, so more than one person saying something about his leadership, although I am not a fan of Billick
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/...-casual-leader

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