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Old 04-05-2013, 03:42 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Neither Ponder nor Locker were worth first-round picks at all and I said so at the time. Not sure what you mean here...

Hit pieces I'm done with. I'd like to see you argue against my opinions on Smith because obviously you can't handle Narwocki's.
I just handled Narwocki's with very little effort. Narwocki is biased against Smith for whatever reason just like he was Cam who went on to have the best rookie season by a QB of all time.

As far as Ponder and Locker, I didn't ask what you thought, I asked were was Narwocki's scathing criticism of those two. Based on his report, Geno should be a third day selection.
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Old 04-05-2013, 03:55 PM    (permalink
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I haven't been posting very much about Geno Smith, because I took a fairly distinct dislike to him (at least, I thought he was waaaaay overrated and I'm not impressed by his demeanor), but didn't want to just be ragging on him all the time, because he's a human being and all that and if he doesn't have what it takes to be an NFL quarterback, it'll be evident soon enough. He reminds me of the Gabbert debate, but from a little bit different angle. I do think Gabbert's flaws were more cringe-inducing. Geno doesn't have nearly the problems running from phantom pressure, trying to throw every fade like a fade-away, and in general looking like he was trying to play football without getting hit. Geno actually strikes me as kind of a"gamer." I'd be fine giving him that label, and it's a compliment. But like Gabbert, the flaws I see in Geno's game are seriously troubling. He's not a cerebral player. I just. Don't. See it.

In interviews he's not engaging. He just follows along with the conversation, nodding, then says something generic about "just trying to go off the defense and make plays." I don't see any strategy in his mind. I don't get the feeling he comprehends the complexity of NFL defenses. I don't know if it's simply an intelligence thing, or if he just isn't a student of the game. I think he is a player of the game. I don't think he is a student of it. Elite quarterbacks in the NFL need to essentially be PhDs in quarterbacking. Or at least, they need to approach it that way - they graduate college with their knowledge of the college game, and then they move up a level, and everything about their game needs to move up a level, too. I just don't know if Geno will be able to do that. He reminds of a kid who might be studying History as an undergraduate, who might turn in pretty good work, but either because A) he's too gifted (Geno is a great athlete) and never learned to put in the work, or B) he did put in comparable work to other students, and his work was enough to earn him the grades he needed for graduate school, but upon arriving at that next level it becomes clear that he just isn't cut out for it.

In the way he talks about the game, and in the way I see him play it, Geno Smith is not ready for the NFL. If he was a RS sophomore coming out, I'd say he'd be a great pick in the second round for a team to develop. As a Senior, he should be ahead of where he is. The fact that he isn't makes me not want to draft him. I have never played college football, but when I watch tape of Geno I see things that I think he should be seeing. Of course, it's much harder to "See" when you're actually on the football field, but that's what separates good college QBs from good NFL QBs. I just have a bad feeling about this guy. I would bet an obscene amount of money that if he hadn't put up the stats he did, he would not be in the first round conversation. But he's got those magical, magnetic numbers (Thanks Tavon, Stedman), so he's going to go higher than he should. He absolutely had the best duo of wideouts in college football last year. (I see you over there Clemson, don't be offended.) He has the arm talent to shine in that situation. I am very, very, very dubious that he can raise the level of play of the players around him. And maybe I'll give him this - if he goes to a good team, if he goes to a team with an above-average wideout group, or maybe even if he lands on a team with a truly elite receiver (like Arizona), I think he can get the ball to them. I think he's kind of that oddball quarterback whose teammates raise his level of play. But without wideouts who always get huge separation, I'm afraid he's either going to become a timid passer who gets sacked a lot, or an interception machine. I just don't see any ability at all in his film to find a 2nd, 3rd or 4th option consistently, he doesn't react well to pressure, and he locks onto receivers and throws to them when they're open, not before, not in anticipation.

So that's my two cents on Geno Smith. The brain is a part of the body, just like the arm. Geno's got the arm he needs. He's got he athleticism. I am not sold on his brain. I think when evaluators are talking about a qb prospect having "it" they are talking about his brain. Obviously, it's something you can't really measure, you can't see it working, but by the way they play the quality of this organ's contribution to the player's overall skillset becomes evident, and to me it looks like Geno's isn't where it needs to be to play quarterback in the NFL, and he's got a ways to go. I really don't want to call him "dumb" or "lazy," but I honestly think he might show less mental acumen than any top prospect I've seen since I started paying attention to the draft. He's all physical traits, and his defenders always have to go back to the stats when his detractors start picking apart the way he plays.
Wow. No offense, but it does sound like you are calling him dumb. Let me ask you about your statement about being dumber than any top prospect. Are you saying he comes off as dumber than the following brain surgeon prospects:

- Blaine Gabbert
- Jamarcus Russell
- Jake Locker
- Joe Flacco
- Brady Quinn

I think I understand the part about you believing that he should be father along (although I don't really known exactly what you mean by farther along), but what I don't understand is how you can pick that up by hearing him speak. He sounds extremely articulate and he doesn't just slang. Basically, he had great communication skills, so I don't understand how his speech is an indicator of anything negative. Now, if you want to say you don't OBSERVE that Matt Ryan/Ben Rothlisberger type "it factor" in his play, that's more easily understood. I don't know that Flacco had an "it factor" early in his career. I'd say he developed it.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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I just handled Narwocki's with very little effort. Narwocki is biased against Smith for whatever reason just like he was Cam who went on to have the best rookie season by a QB of all time.

As far as Ponder and Locker, I didn't ask what you thought, I asked were was Narwocki's scathing criticism of those two. Based on his report, Geno should be a third day selection.
I don't know but both of those players had top-notch intangibles by all accounts so his criticisms were probably all on field.

Did you miss his comments on Bray and Clausen and RGiii and Wilson?
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:37 PM    (permalink
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Bills gave up nothing for Kolb and he can easily be cut. Raiders gave up a late 2014 pick and another conditional for Flynn, that's hardly a commitment. Cardinals and Eagles are hardly set at qb with Palmer and Vick, I highly doubt that those two are their starters in 2014 so I'm not sure how that keeps them from taking Geno
True, but the rumor in Philly is that Chip Kelly really likes EJ Manuel. Why waste a 1st round pick on a above average QB when there are better prospects in the top 10. If I am GM I would not pick a QB top 10 this year and wait next year. The risk reward is just not there.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:41 PM    (permalink
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True, but the rumor in Philly is that Chip Kelly really likes EJ Manuel. Why waste a 1st round pick on a above average QB when there are better prospects in the top 10. If I am GM I would not pick a QB top 10 this year and wait next year. The risk reward is just not there.
I agree that reaching for a qb who isn't a top 10 talent is poor draft strategy, however more teams do it than not so I don't see how Geno makes it out of the top 5, if he's there at 3 someone will not have to give Oakland much to trade into that spot assuming they don't take him themselves. Pick 4 or 5 seems less likely, 2 to the jags or 3 to raiders or a trade up seem most likely to me.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:45 PM    (permalink
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I actually think Smith's best chance is Philly at 4 or maybe later on a tradeup. Kelly's offense is going to be easier to navigate than others for Smith and he has the athleticism he wants.

Hologo and Kelly have a similar philosophy in getting the ball out quick and that would help his transition.
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Old 04-05-2013, 04:49 PM    (permalink
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I just handled Narwocki's with very little effort. Narwocki is biased against Smith for whatever reason just like he was Cam who went on to have the best rookie season by a QB of all time.

As far as Ponder and Locker, I didn't ask what you thought, I asked were was Narwocki's scathing criticism of those two. Based on his report, Geno should be a third day selection.

Well, Cam's smile is fake. Nawrocki nailed that one.

The Panthers have already had issues with his leadership and attitude. He was going to have to get used to losing in the NFL... something people questioned because he had never dealt with it before.

When things aren't going his way, he pouts. He was coddled at Auburn just like Vince Young and Manti Te'o were at Texas and Notre Dame.


I don't think Geno has any of the personality, intelligence, or leadership flaws that Cam, Vince, Manti, etc. carry. Nor has he been coddled the way they were.

West Virginia originally had a commitment from Tajh Boyd before they turned their attention to Geno. People don't realize that. Geno smoked him in the Orange Bowl by hanging a 70 spot on 'em.
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:31 PM    (permalink
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Geno had a scholarship offer from the U. too, among other programs.

I think his naysayers are just off about him. I understand for many it's a gut feeling about the guy that he lacks what it takes to be a good QB in the NFL, I just don't see him missing by the margin many of his detractors do.

Did anyone see Gruden's QB Camp with Geno Smith last night??
I'm thinking it will be re-broadcast.
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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I saw it. It was 80% espnized and 20% good stuff. The simplicity of his offense showed for sure.

Like the mooch segment, he didn't strike me as the "command the respect of a ten year vet" type of kid. Just my instinct.

I thinks it's clear he's going to have a tough transition from his college offense to a pro scheme.

His arm is great and he obviously said all the right things. I wonder how much influence the agent has in the editing process for those.

Find mooch's though... It's much tougher on smith than gruden.
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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Daniel Jeremiah has Smith going No. 8 to Buffalo. Charles Davis had him going 4 to Philly.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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He seemed to handle himself pretty well with Gruden.
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:50 PM    (permalink
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In that video, he says "defenses have to react to the offenses." He says that at the very beginning. Less than a minute in. And that's exactly the problem I have - that having Bailey and Austin did mean that defenses had to kind of keep track of what WVU's offense was doing, but in the NFL it's not going to be like that for him. In the NFL, quarterbacks have to react to the defenses they see in front of them at the snap, and to be able to decide, according to the defense, where a good play is going to be. I'm going to watch the rest of the video, but Geno pretty much just stated in his own words the thing that worries me about his approach to playing quarterback.

So I watched the Gruden camp video, and he came across well overall. I've never tried to attack his character, he comes across as a good guy. I'm willing to concede that maybe other times I've seen him answering questions on tv he's just not real comfortable in front of a camera like that, and he's just more at ease in a setting such as what he had with Gruden. It's never been personal; that's why (Black Bolt, this is at you - ) I didn't want to call him "dumb." It's a derogotory term and I'd much sooner use it to describe someone who, say, tested positive for weed at the combine than, conversely, didn't test well on the wonderlic or something. Percy Harvin - kinda dumb. Geno Smith? I'm just not going to call him that.

But if a wide receiver runs a 4.7, you call him slow. I don't know why it's offensive to people to suggest something similar about a quarterback's ability to read and react to defenses. Maybe Geno is just as intelligent as a typical prospect, but like a wide receiver who runs a 4.45 but didn't get consistent separation in college, and who you'd then say "doesn't play up to his timed speed," that's kinda what I see with Geno. When I first saw Jarvis Jones, he was being compared to Von Miller. I said no WAY. He's waaaaay slower than Von Miller. And of course, people had all these excuses, and they'd throw it out there that "Even if he's not quite as fast as Von" they thought he'd at least run a 4.6, or whatever. And I was like, "naw, he's really not in the same class at all." And then you get to his pro day and he runs a 4.9. I can run a 4.9. And then people still want to point to his stats, they want to point to something else that is supposed to make you think, "Ah, ok, I guess he's worth a top-10 pick." But for me, the guy who thought he'd be running in the 4.8s, to see a 4.9 come out of his pro day just confirms the concerns I already have. That's how it is for me with Geno, except there's really no "brain speed" test. Like the 40, a guy can be really smooth and athletic, he can be productive, he can be effective in the right situation, but when it comes down to it he's just not fast. A top-10 kind of pick needs to be a force even on a bad team. A guy can play quarterback and be productive, he can be athletic and coordinated and have great physical ability to throw the ball, but he might just not be that fast in how he reads and reacts to defenses. There are many reasons this could be, and needn't necessarily be that the guy is "dumb." I mean, Blaine Gabbert doesn't know what to do with the football and he got a 42 on the wonderlic.

Now, for one thing, while I don't consider Jarvis Jones a first rounder, I'm not going to predict that he can't play in the NFL. Same with Geno - I don't think he can't. I just haven't seen something to make me think he's an exceptional prospect overall. I could certainly be wrong. Maybe you'd think of a guy like Ray Rice, who I remember quite a few people having pegged as possibly being a 4.6 guy, but then he went and ran in the mid to low-4.4s at the combine, and that allows a draft nerd to think, "Oh, well, apparently he just varies his speed a lot as a runner, and I could be mistaking patience for a lack of burst." That's just how it is for me with Geno. I don't see a lot of, you could say, mental speed. But there's not a metric test that can show me otherwise, like there is for someone who might be expected to run a slower 40 time than is ideal for their position. It's like if you had to pick a running back without any numbers to back it up. Maybe I'm like someone who would've passed on Ray Rice because I thought he was slow. Maybe my concerns about Geno just aren't valid. I'm ok with that. Got nothing agains the guy. I never root for a prospect to fail. Ray Rice might've fallen further if he hadn't had the opportunity to come into the combine and run a very good time. Conversely, Jarvis Jones might've really damaged his draft stock, at least in the eyes of some, by running so slowly. There's not going to be a decision-making-under-pressure speed test for Geno, so I've just got to go with what I see.

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Old 04-06-2013, 02:21 AM    (permalink
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When I rewatch his games, I still see a solid 1st round pick. IMO he's better than any options the Chiefs/Raiders/Bills/Jets/Jags currently have on their rosters heading in the 2013 season.

No major holes in his game that I see.
Does he hold onto the ball too long at times?? Yeah. But so what?? Coaching will correct that.

I just don't see much bust in him.
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:44 AM    (permalink
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A lot of his deep throws hang in the air big time. Begging for safety INT's in the NFL.
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Old 04-06-2013, 04:00 AM    (permalink
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A lot of his deep throws hang in the air big time. Begging for safety INT's in the NFL.

Really?? Most of Geno's deep passes are hitting guys in in stride down the field.

What game are you talking about? His deep ball accuracy is good.
It's not an accident he's never thrown for more than 7 INTs in any season.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:27 AM    (permalink
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So Funbuncher you are on record here saying Geno Smith is going to be a Pro-Bowl quality QB in the NFL right?
Man-up.

I will say he'll never be a top-20 NFL QB, at the best.
He might, might, have a few good moments. But so did Mark Sanchez, and Rick Mirer. And Tim Couch.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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I see no way Smith gets drafted before the teens and could even go later than that. Just way too many question marks about him. That's why teams are scrambling to sign veterans because they know this guy is a longshot at best.
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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I see no way Smith gets drafted before the teens and could even go later than that. Just way too many question marks about him. That's why teams are scrambling to sign veterans because they know this guy is a longshot at best.
You could make the argument that Smith is carrying no more question marks than Gabbert, Locker or Ponder and maybe even Cam. thing is there doesn't seem the number of teams that need QBs so not going to be shocked at all if he ends up down in the mid first. For Smith it's probably better that he goes to a team where he can sit and learn, he'd probably really struggle with a crappy team.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:29 PM    (permalink
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If Geno is at best an average or worse NFL QB in 3 years, I'll post about it.
If he's arguably a top 10-15 QB in the league and one of the top 5 QBs drafted in the last 3 years, I hope his most vehement naysayers will step up and explain why they were so wrong about him.

See, with some guys I just have no strong opinion about them one way or the other. Then there are those QB prospects I absolutely love, some I hate.

For Geno, I have a strong cautiously optimistic feeling about.
It's not the way I felt about Newton/Griffin/Luck/Mallett, can't miss guys to me, but he's not far behind.

That said, I think any team in the top 20 who needs a QB and instead decided to pass on Geno in favor of a vet QB pickup, will soon regret it.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:53 PM    (permalink
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It's not the way I felt about Newton/Griffin/Luck/Mallett, can't miss guys to me, but he's not far behind.
Mallett? Can you elaborate on the can't miss part? I know the Patriots value him highly, but I'm shocked you labelled him in the 'can't miss' category with those other guys. I know that you know someone would identify that, so i'm just hoping you can elaborate. The others have proven themselves as #1 QB's.
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:01 AM    (permalink
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I just think when Mallett finally gets his chance to start he's going to be a multiple pro bowler. The reason he fell IMO had nothing at all to do with his game film and everything to do with team scouts afraid of his bust potential because of his alleged off the field issues.

Other than Newton, I think Mallett was the #2 QB prospect in the 2011 draft.
Just one of those guys I'm very high on. Chicks call it a 'crush'.
Not like it's written in stone.lol

Still, you can't convince me the Bills/Jags/Chiefs/Titans/Vikings/Browns/Bengals/Phins wouldn't have been better off with Mallett as their starting QB in 2011.
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:15 AM    (permalink
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I defended Mallett when he free-fell from 1st round lock to what he became.
But to call him a future multiple Pro Bowler is quite comical.

And I do enjoy a good laugh before bedtime, so thanks for that.

I do respect you for having ballz in your opinions on Smith, and Mallett.
I just don't see Smith as a future good NFL QB at all.
But then again paid scouts didn't see that in young Tom Brady either so who knows....
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:24 AM    (permalink
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I defended Mallett when he free-fell from 1st round lock to what he became.
But to call him a future multiple Pro Bowler is quite comical.

And I do enjoy a good laugh before bedtime, so thanks for that.

I do respect you for having ballz in your opinions on Smith, and Mallett.
I just don't see Smith as a future good NFL QB at all.
But then again paid scouts didn't see that in young Tom Brady either so who knows....
Nothing comical about the unknown. That's what the draft is all about, forecasting how good college players are going to be in the pros.
By your rationale, if anyone believed Steve Young would one day be a HOF QB when he was riding the bench behind Montana, that would have been 'comical' too.

It shouldn't really be a surprise if Mallett ends up being a very good pro QB.
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:50 AM    (permalink
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Geno doesn't come with as many question marks as most of these veterans that teams were scrambling to sign.
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