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Old 04-07-2013, 01:36 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by Rob S View Post
Jerry Reese ******** on analytics and pretending they don't matter ruins him for me.
Those analytics got Dimitroff 1 playoff win in 4 years.

Not saying he's not a very good GM, but I do feel he's a tad overrated. I do feel that Reese is dropping the ball a little by not being open to it, but at the same time, it's awfully hard to argue with his methods when he's so damn good at finding bargain FAs and drafts so well.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by fatso View Post
He isn't comparing teams dude. This is a thread about GM's. He (correctly) pointed out that a lot of our core players are from the old regime. No foul there. Schneider completely built that team. Baalke helped finish our team.
Yup. I think you put it perfectly. Baalke's finished that roster but he inherited the best 5tech and MLB in the league plus Crab, Gore, and Vernus. But what Schneider's done - build from almost nothing... pretty amazing considering he started with a couple of beefy DTs and a center and literally NOTHING ELSE.

And Baalk deserves credit for his input because he's been there through the whole thing.

But for just a GM resume, it's not close.

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Originally Posted by phlysac View Post
Just making your argument cyclical...

All of the 49ers players whom you listed that Baalke didn't bring in, were brought in by Scot McCloughan whom is now the Senior player personnel rep for the Seahawks and has been since 2010.

Maybe McCloughan is the genius LOL.
That's pretty cool. He's playing both sides.

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Originally Posted by 49ersfan_87 View Post
BTW i don't know how i missed this. But Baalke drafted Bowman. 3rd round 2010 (which is Baalke's first draft).
I didn't remember their exact FO situation but Wikipedia told me he wasn't the official GM until 2011.

Point still stands even with Bowman off my list.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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A GM needs to surround himself with great people and have a good owner for success. We have Dave G. the Panthers new GM who was a pro personnel scout for us. He basically is the one who rated Burress, AP, and Kareem M. for us as guys to sign. This was at a time period, and I remember this vividly, when people thought Burress was just a # 2 WR, unproven, and shouldn't be made # 1. After all, he didn't have Hines Ward on the other side, to help him.

Our cap guy, Kevin Abrams, has done a good job for us in his career. Reese has these guys and it helps me. Not to take anything away from Reese, but it's good when these guys are in the organization helping out.

Reese is a very good GM, but in order to be the best, you have to be able to hire the right HC, and draft a franchise QB. If a GM can stamp that on his team, and come away with SBs, then that's a very, very, good GM.

Reese inherited Eli and Coughlin. His power move, in my mind, was letting go our LT, Luke P, and moving David D, our LG to LT. That move shocked our fan base, and we were unsure about that.

In 2007, we didn't hire a guy for his former position, when promoted to GM. So he had to do 2 jobs, GM, and Director of College Scouting. His best draft to date was that draft class, and he had to pull double duty.

In an odd way, I hope some team hires Marc Ross. I'd LOVE to see Reese pull double duty again. Ross has been good, nothing amazing, but that one draft where Reese had total contract as a GM and Director of College Scouting, he hit a grand slam. Maybe that much power isn't horded at one position in the FO, but I would love if Reese got that much power to do both jobs.

Reese is a top GM, but to be the best, he will have to pick a great HC, after Coughlin retires, AND draft the next franchise QB, when Eli retires. That's when the big grade comes in. If he can do that and come out with excellent results, then he would be ranked as the best GM in my mind. However, doing that is very hard.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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He didn't become GM until after the Ravens won their first Super Bowl.
True, but he's been an executive since they were the Browns back in 1991.
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Old 04-07-2013, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by gpngc View Post
Yup. I think you put it perfectly. Baalke's finished that roster but he inherited the best 5tech and MLB in the league plus Crab, Gore, and Vernus. But what Schneider's done - build from almost nothing... pretty amazing considering he started with a couple of beefy DTs and a center and literally NOTHING ELSE.

And Baalk deserves credit for his input because he's been there through the whole thing.

But for just a GM resume, it's not close.



That's pretty cool. He's playing both sides.



I didn't remember their exact FO situation but Wikipedia told me he wasn't the official GM until 2011.

Point still stands even with Bowman off my list.
Your inferiority complex about the 49ers has been one of my favorite aspects of this offseason on these boards.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:04 PM    (permalink
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Your inferiority complex about the 49ers has been one of my favorite aspects of this offseason on these boards.
I think I've made a pretty convincing argument that Schneider's GM resume is better than Baalke's in this particular thread. That's the point I wanted to make.

To your point - nope.

I respect the 49ers a lot. I think Harbaugh is a hell of a coach. Crabtree was one of my favorite prospects ever.

But I have no inferiority complex. The Seahawks are the only team in the league the Niners don't bully around besides NYG and the last time the two teams faced, the Seahawks absolutely destroyed them.

I think the games will be very competitive this year. I think the addition of Harvin gives us a better roster on paper but we both paper doesn't mean everything.

Our arrow is pointing in one direction and yours slightly in the other. That's what has happened this offseason. But it's a week-to-week league so we'll see what that means once the season starts.

And for the first time in forever, I'm confident. If I had to guess, I'd put Seattle above San Francisco. That's not an inferiority complex - it's just confidence in my team. If you want to call me biased that's fine. An argument can obviously be made for the Niners. But I think we're slightly better and that's how it will play out. Hopefully I'll be right but obviously I wouldn't be surprised at all if I'm not.

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Old 04-07-2013, 04:19 PM    (permalink
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No, its an inferiority complex because, for the most part, you can't write a post about the Seahawks without talking about how blah blah blah makes them better than SF. It's pretty comical.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Borat View Post
No, its an inferiority complex because, for the most part, you can't write a post about the Seahawks without talking about how blah blah blah makes them better than SF. It's pretty comical.
It's a rivalry, what do you want? SF moves directly affect Seattle because they're rivals. What's funny about that? I want my team to get to where SF has been the past two years so I compare them to their chief rival... lol
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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This is a thread about BILL POLIAN'S list of top 6 GMs and all you did was discuss how Schneider is better than Baalke. You didn't compare Schneider to the others listed. You didn't attack Polian for this stupid list. It's just your inferiority complex coming out.

FWIW, I agree with a lot of your points. I'd have Schneider in there above Pitt's GM.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:59 PM    (permalink
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If you read through the thread, the discussion moved in that direction naturally, as I was responding to dan777's list and OP brought up Scheider as a snub... I'm a Seahawks fan and Schneider should be on the list - of course I'd discuss that.

If paying attention to the 49ers and analyzing both teams as rivals means I have an inferiority complex then I guess I have one...
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:59 PM    (permalink
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What's amazing about Newsome is he traded up in the first round to draft Kyle Boller in his first draft as GM. A horrendous decision yet he was able to stick around long enough to correct the situation with Flacco.

Also, after he realized Boller sucked, he traded for an 80 year old Steve McNair and wondered why Brian Billick couldn't pull another Super Bowl out of his ass with him.

Now days, if you miss on your first round QB, the consensus is that you have to be fired.
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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It's a rivalry, what do you want? SF moves directly affect Seattle because they're rivals. What's funny about that? I want my team to get to where SF has been the past two years so I compare them to their chief rival... lol
Its not a rivalry though. Could be one in the future but to have a rivalry, you have to have a sustained history of significant meetings with championship asiprations on the line. The G-Men and the Cowboys are more our rivials than you guys. Hell, even the Rams from their LA days are more our rival than the 'Hawks. That will probably change going foward but call it what it is. We've only been in th same division for what, 10-12 years? Its a dislike that's just getting started but I think I can speak for most Niner fans when I say I don't see the 'Hawks as team I hate to lose to or hate to see win. I can defintely say that about the Packers, Giants, and Cowboys....just from the significance of playoffs battles over the decades. Seahawks fans see the Niners as their rival. Niner fans don't look at it as a rivalry.....yet.

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Old 04-07-2013, 06:26 PM    (permalink
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True, but he's been an executive since they were the Browns back in 1991.
So? No one is giving Ted Thompson credit for Favre's Super Bowl or John Schneider credit for the Packers' last one. You have to draw the line somewhere, and what more logical place to draw it than when they actually become a GM.
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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What's amazing about Newsome is he traded up in the first round to draft Kyle Boller in his first draft as GM. A horrendous decision yet he was able to stick around long enough to correct the situation with Flacco.

Also, after he realized Boller sucked, he traded for an 80 year old Steve McNair and wondered why Brian Billick couldn't pull another Super Bowl out of his ass with him.

Now days, if you miss on your first round QB, the consensus is that you have to be fired.
just speaks to the greatness of Newsome that he was able to survive a bust as big as Kyle Boller.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:52 PM    (permalink
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I didn't remember their exact FO situation but Wikipedia told me he wasn't the official GM until 2011.
Scot McCloughan was fired for personal issues believed to be involving alcohol abuse, shortly before the draft in 2010. Baalke took over the duties for the draft. He wasn't officially named the GM until later.

McCloughan was then hired by Seattle.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:21 AM    (permalink
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No, its an inferiority complex because, for the most part, you can't write a post about the Seahawks without talking about how blah blah blah makes them better than SF. It's pretty comical.
It would be comical if his points weren't totally valid....
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:00 AM    (permalink
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not til we get some results in raiderland. As a raider fan, I like what hes doing. Thank god he got rid of carson. Love the matt flynn trade. For the most part, I like all the cuts hes making, although I think Michael Huff and DHB are both quality players that were worth keeping around, even if they were a little overpaid. If they were surrounded by so many bad players, I think they would both get more recognition for their abilities. I see them both having big years now that they have signed with legitimate teams (indy and baltimore). But yea hes off to a good start IMO but time will tell with McKenzie. Have to see what he does with his draft picks the next couple years.
I totally understand him dumping everyone he can that can help him right the cap ship, though. Walking into such a mess, you have to think that he wanted to separate himself from virtually everyone that was there when he got there.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:06 AM    (permalink
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Like someone else said results are needed but i agree i love what he's doing. I get the feeling it wont matter though because he wont get enough time to build up the team to actually compete. The new Davis is looking for results now
I disagree. I think he will get 3-4 more years. After this season the actual rebuild begins. By 2015 I think he will have a real nice core coming together and will look like a genius.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:16 AM    (permalink
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Prediction: the 2012 season is about as good as its gonna get for the Skins. Theyve got a few other nice pieces (Trent Williams, Alfred Morris, Ryan Kerrigan, Orakpo if he comes back strong), but this roster just has too many problems and they have too many cap issues and not enough draft picks. They are gonna finish dead last in the east this year, and probably next year too, prompting Shanahan to get fired. Maybe after that they will succesfully build a team around RG3, if Shanahan doesnt get him killed first. Or maybe RG3 will have to leave the Skins to really become a winner.


Baalke inherited a lot of pieces as a GM, his big move was bringing in Harbaugh, the guy who was able to harness all the talent on that roster. But he has made nothing but savvy moves the last couple years, and has done a great job in working with his coach. Curious to see how AJ Jenkins works out, he didnt see the field last year, but thats not necessarily a bad thing. If he becomes a vertical threat, he will be the missing piece to this offense.


And Ozzie Newsome amazes me. There is never a year where Im not amazed by how well the Ravens drafted. They are always the ones who sit pat and let the guys fall to them, and when they make a move up, its for the guy who was worh it, and at the right price. and when they move down, they get good value and still get good picks. THere isnt a draft that goes by where I dont see several steals made by the Ravens. He started off his GM career by snatching up Suggs, who fell to no. 10 b/c of a slow 40 time, Newsome didnt buy into that mess for a second, and he has continued in that fashion throughout his career with great picks like Haloti Ngata (12), Joe Flacco in the late first round, Ray Rice in the second round, Courtney Upshaw in the 2nd last year, mid-rounders like Bernard Pierce, Dennis Pitta, and Ed Dickson. Great pick-ups like Corey Graham, who filled in nicely for Ladarius Webb (who was a great 3rd round pick). He doesnt overpay players hes drafted that command big FA deals (ex: Paul Kruger)....Also, he was the first black GM, trailblazing the way for guys like Jerry Reese and Reggie McKenzie
I very much agree about Ozzie. I think he is far and away the best GM in the league when it comes to assembling a team and keeping it competitive. Something else to be considered with him is that the Ravens by far have been granted the most compensatory picks. This shows that his teams have regularly had more talent than the roster can hold, and that he has enough depth to reload through the draft and not have to go sign big name free agents to fill voids. In years like this one, where they lost quite a few pieces, most teams would really be in a bind, but the Ravens will simply reload, may have a down year, but will be right in the mix of top teams for the next several years. I am really hoping that is the kind of GM Les Snead becomes in St. Louis.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:28 AM    (permalink
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Its not a rivalry though. Could be one in the future but to have a rivalry, you have to have a sustained history of significant meetings with championship asiprations on the line. The G-Men and the Cowboys are more our rivials than you guys. Hell, even the Rams from their LA days are more our rival than the 'Hawks. That will probably change going foward but call it what it is. We've only been in th same division for what, 10-12 years? Its a dislike that's just getting started but I think I can speak for most Niner fans when I say I don't see the 'Hawks as team I hate to lose to or hate to see win. I can defintely say that about the Packers, Giants, and Cowboys....just from the significance of playoffs battles over the decades. Seahawks fans see the Niners as their rival. Niner fans don't look at it as a rivalry.....yet.
A lot of today's fans may not remember, but I guarantee you when Sunday rolls around in the NFC West, The Rams and 49ers hate each other more than any other teams in this division. You can't make up for 60 years of hatred.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:16 AM    (permalink
VAfy-ya
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A lot of today's fans may not remember, but I guarantee you when Sunday rolls around in the NFC West, The Rams and 49ers hate each other more than any other teams in this division. You can't make up for 60 years of hatred.
I agree. And the funny thing is I really don't view the Rams as team I hate. But I remember the Jim Everett, Henry Ellard, Flipper Anderson, Kevin Greene days where we had some real battles. Even the Saints when they were in the division with Bobby Hebart and Iron Man Heyward. But I think its more of a bitter rivalry with the teams I mentioned, outside our divison, simply becuase of the playoffs and and the significance of those meetings. If it wasn't for the G-Men, Cowboys, and Packers, we could damn well have close to 10 Lombardi's. Winners of those contests usually went on to win it all so I think that's what sticks in fans mind the most....the ones that got away due to those same rivals.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:32 AM    (permalink
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I agree. And the funny thing is I really don't view the Rams as team I hate. But I remember the Jim Everett, Henry Ellard, Flipper Anderson, Kevin Greene days where we had some real battles. Even the Saints when they were in the division with Bobby Hebart and Iron Man Heyward. But I think its more of a bitter rivalry with the teams I mentioned, outside our divison, simply becuase of the playoffs and and the significance of those meetings. If it wasn't for the G-Men, Cowboys, and Packers, we could damn well have close to 10 Lombardi's. Winners of those contests usually went on to win it all so I think that's what sticks in fans mind the most....the ones that got away due to those same rivals.
I think that will change in the next few years. Our division is going to be the toughest in football this season if it wasn't in 2012, and none of the teams appear to be in serious cap trouble. They are all young and talented. If Bradford breaks out this year (I think he will) and Arizona gets their QB situation figured out, we could be in for some serious division games for years to come regardless of who's playing who.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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Not sure how Elway isnt a lock on everyone's list. Dude took over a team that was in shambles and he took over a team that had the 2nd worst record. since then his team has won 2 division titles, acquired Peyton Manning, drafted the likes of Von Miller and just had the NFL's best record last year and the team looks to be getting stronger...
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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A lot of the pieces that have come together in Denver aren't Elway players though.

Think about the core of that team: Thomas, Decker, Clady, Moreno, Champ, Dooms (before this year).

All were before Elway. Now don't get me wrong, Elway did a tremendous job bringing in his own guys as well, but the core of that team just happened to come together as Elway brought in Peyton. And of course Peyton makes everyone look better.

It's too early to say Elway is in the top 5. He gets a ton of credit for Von, Wolfe, and Peyton. But we need a couple more years before we throw his name in there.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:47 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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but all of those players were there before Elway and outside of Champ, all looked like busts/under acheivers. Once Elway came in he set the tone and attitude. I will give you the fact that he didnt draft thomas or decker but he was able to get the players to step up and get them a QB that could help them shine.
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