Draft Countdown Forums

Go Back   Draft Countdown Forums > Draft Countdown Forums > Pro Football

Pro Football Discuss professional football.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-12-2013, 01:36 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
Pro Bowler
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,777
Reputation: 1685610
cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.cmarq83 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
And nothing that I said about either Graham or Pierre Paul disputes or contradicts my stance on the topic being discussed in this thread.
The crux of your entire argument was that Brandon Graham got more pressure on a per play basis that JPP and thus was a better pass rusher despite the difference in sacks between the 2 of them, and that was what made Brandon Graham a good pass rusher at the NFL level despite the relative rarity that he has brought down the QB thus far in his career.

Now you're drawing an arbitrary line in the sand about how many sacks somebody should have before you'd consider them, without taking any of the things into account that you yourself said are sometimes even more valuable. Under the criteria you listed if somebody was as productive at the college level as Brandon Graham supposedly has been in the NFL you wouldn't even give them a look.

The fact that you cannot see how blatantly contradictory your 2 arguments are is hilarious to me.

Last edited by cmarq83 : 04-12-2013 at 01:41 PM.
cmarq83 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:43 PM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 787
Reputation: -30171
AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
The crux of your entire argument was that Brandon Graham got more pressure on a per play basis that JPP and thus was a better pass rusher despite the difference in sacks between the 2 of them, and was what made Brandon Graham a good pass rusher at the NFL level despite the relative rarity that he has brought down the QB thus far in his career.

Now you're drawing an arbitrary line in the sand about how many sacks somebody should have before you'd consider them, without taking any of the things into account that you yourself said are sometimes even more valuable. Under the criteria you listed if somebody was as productive at the college level as Brandon Graham supposedly has been in the NFL you wouldn't even give them a look.

The fact that you cannot see how blatantly contradictory your 2 arguments are is hilarious to me.
I'm looking at sack numbers in college because they are the most widely available stats with which we can judge college pass rushers.

However, I actually prefer pressure stats because they paint a better picture of a player. Sacks naturally come from pressure, but are also dependant on things like teammate help, and actual tackling ability of the pass rusher.

If pressure stats were more widely available and *reliable* for college prospects, I would use those stats instead of just raw sacks, but right now, reliable, consistent pass rush pressure stats are only recorded for NFL games.

Making a judgement about Brandon Graham vs, Jason Pierre Paul based on pass rush pressure per snap is perfectly in line with everything else I am saying. I could even judge Graham vs, Pierre Paul on a sack/snap basis. Both achieved around 5-6 sacks, but Graham literaly played HALF the snaps that Pierre Paul played. If you look at pressure stats, it tells the same story. I could just as easily talk about raw sack numbers in the same way: Graham was more productive in less time on the field either way.
AcheTen (Thumper) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:43 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
Team Leader
Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Jersey
Posts: 28,899
Reputation: 3803561
bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
And nothing that I said about either Graham or Pierre Paul disputes or contradicts my stance on the topic being discussed in this thread.
Do you ever look at JPP highlights on youtube and ask yourself, what could have been?
__________________
bigbluedefense is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:44 PM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 787
Reputation: -30171
AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Do you ever look at JPP highlights on youtube and ask yourself, what could have been?
I'm excited to see the next 5 years because I am confident that Graham will be a better player than Pierre Paul and everyone will look back at Pierre Paul's one good year (2011) and say "what happened to that guy?"
AcheTen (Thumper) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:46 PM    (permalink
P-L
Head Moderator
Legend
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: South Florida
Posts: 30,561
Reputation: 1108093
P-L is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.P-L is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.P-L is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.P-L is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.P-L is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.P-L is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.P-L is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.P-L is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.P-L is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.P-L is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.P-L is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SolidGold View Post
It's fair to note that the biggest draft busts are those who have had good measurables.
It's really not fair to note that because the terms bust is basically "failure relative to draft position." If you don't have the necessary athleticism to play in the NFL, you're not going to get drafted high (if at all). You won't find quarterbacks like Timmy Chang, Ken Dorsey, Jason White, and Kliff Kingsbury on any list of "biggest draft busts" but they are every bit the failures that JaMarcus Russell and Blaine Gabbert are.
P-L is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 01:53 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
Team Leader
Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Jersey
Posts: 28,899
Reputation: 3803561
bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.bigbluedefense is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
I'm excited to see the next 5 years because I am confident that Graham will be a better player than Pierre Paul and everyone will look back at Pierre Paul's one good year (2011) and say "what happened to that guy?"
JPP got us a ring. I'm good. Thanks. Graham can get you 20 sacks a season for all I care.
__________________
bigbluedefense is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 02:14 PM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 621
Reputation: 46766
Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

The giants knew JPP was going to be a boom or bust type player with his lack of an extensive football history. That being said just like Bigblue said if he ends up never able to replicate his explosive year, he did help bring the gmen a ring.

Last edited by Denver Bronco56 : 04-12-2013 at 03:04 PM.
Denver Bronco56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 02:33 PM    (permalink
Rosebud
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Enjoying a succulent peach
Posts: 10,596
Reputation: 2578670
Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Rosebud is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Do you ever look at JPP highlights on youtube and ask yourself, what could have been?
lol he so angry.
__________________

BK

Quote:
Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
Rosebud is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 02:50 PM    (permalink
WCH
Pro Bowler
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,956
Reputation: 3092363
WCH is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WCH is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WCH is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WCH is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WCH is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WCH is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WCH is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WCH is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WCH is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WCH is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.WCH is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-L View Post
It's really not fair to note that because the terms bust is basically "failure relative to draft position." If you don't have the necessary athleticism to play in the NFL, you're not going to get drafted high (if at all). You won't find quarterbacks like Timmy Chang, Ken Dorsey, Jason White, and Kliff Kingsbury on any list of "biggest draft busts" but they are every bit the failures that JaMarcus Russell and Blaine Gabbert are.
This needs to be Quoted For Truth.
WCH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 03:18 PM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 621
Reputation: 46766
Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Denver Bronco56 is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WCH View Post
This needs to be Quoted For Truth.
There are exceptions to this, if a player slips or is drafted much later than projected.


EXE
Maurice Clarett - once a very promising prospect, even drafted in the 3rd round is in my mind a bust.

or another example

is Bo Jackson(not him specifically) but someone that was/should have been taken 1st round... doesnt pan out (im referring hypathetically and not specifically at Bo Jackson..but some one that fell do to circumstances and if they did not pan out)

Last edited by Denver Bronco56 : 04-12-2013 at 03:25 PM.
Denver Bronco56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 787
Reputation: -30171
AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper) AcheTen (Thumper)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
JPP got us a ring. I'm good. Thanks. Graham can get you 20 sacks a season for all I care.
Eli had more to do with that ring than Jason Pierre Paul.

Also, I'd probably say that Tuck and Osi playing a "last hurrah" type of performance in the 2011 playoffs (they generated the most pressure on the DL that postseason) was the #2 reason behind Eli.

And then, if you want to throw in a #3 reason, I'd probably put Victor Cruz in there (even when he wasn't generating ridiculous plays, he was drawing all of the attention from the defensive coordinators, allowing Nicks and Manningham & co to make plays - i.e. the Super Bowl).
AcheTen (Thumper) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2013, 07:33 PM    (permalink
Eazy Picks
Veteran
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 716
Reputation: 469019
Eazy Picks is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Eazy Picks is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Eazy Picks is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Eazy Picks is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Eazy Picks is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Eazy Picks is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Eazy Picks is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Eazy Picks is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Eazy Picks is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Eazy Picks is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Eazy Picks is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

JPP is a monster and hes only going to get better. Hes only been in the league a few years, is extremely young (I think he was only 20 when he was drafted), and had very little experience playing football before he came to the NFL. He had a monster 2011 obviously and his expectations got a little ramped up and he, along with the Giants team, had a little bit of a down year. He'll bounce back. He'll continue to improve. His talent is off the charts, he is already an excellent player, and he will improve his pass-rush reportoire and become a more impactful player as the years go on.
Eazy Picks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2013, 09:47 PM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
All-NFLDC
 
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Wallaceburg, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 11,757
Reputation: 248194
Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.Iamcanadian is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Originally Posted by AcheTen

Of the top 50 sack leaders in NFL history (the all time greats),

90+% of them had 17 or more sacks in their college careers.
60+% of them had 28 or more sacks in their college careers.


That should tell you something about the importance of college production, at least for pass rushers.

If they are in the pro HOF, that means they very likely played 4 years of college football which equates to about 4 sacks a year. Today, most pros enter the league with only 3 years of college football which means they would average 12 sacks during their college career, so that means Achen Ten would likely pass on about 90% of future HOF pass rushers.
As for the group that had 28 or more sack of which 60% of them made the HOF, you would be lucky to find 1% today that can reach those totals since most of the great pros now come from the junior class.

So, according to Achen Ten's theory, players who stay in school an extra year are far more likely to reach the HOF than the juniors who leave school early, and we all know that is pure rubbish which is pretty well what Achen Ten's theory is, PURE RUBBISH.

Sorry to be so cruel but really, not one football organization follows your theory which pretty well sums up its value.
__________________
And proud of it!!!
Iamcanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 01:57 AM    (permalink
JordanTaber
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 721
Reputation: -58773
JordanTaber JordanTaber JordanTaber JordanTaber JordanTaber JordanTaber JordanTaber JordanTaber JordanTaber JordanTaber JordanTaber
Default

Production in college is meaningless. System, system, system. You have to watch them carefully on the field and determine what they do well/what attributes they possess, and whether or not those attributes will be enough to make them successful at the NFL level. It's not about what they can't do, it's about whether or not what they can do is enough.

If you have a running back who only runs really fast in a straight line through gaping holes and never makes anyone miss at the second level/in the open field, it's probably not going to work. Or a pure speed rushing pass rusher...NFL players have seen guys with a lot of speed before. What else can you do?

Terrell Owens has brick hands and can't come out of his breaks smoothly, but he had world class speed, he had "2" guard moves/stop-and-start in the open field (in his SF days), and he had balance. He could burn you deep or he could catch a hitch, make you miss, and explode up the field. That's enough.

Of course, some NFL teams have systems where you can plug in unremarkable "talents" at certain positions and get tons of production. That'll leave people scratching their heads if said player leaves the team in free agency and then falls off the radar.

Last edited by JordanTaber : 04-16-2013 at 02:03 AM.
JordanTaber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2013, 02:41 AM    (permalink
G Mobile
Veteran
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: niel89 on the go!
Posts: 613
Reputation: 147946
G Mobile is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.G Mobile is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.G Mobile is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.G Mobile is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.G Mobile is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.G Mobile is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.G Mobile is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.G Mobile is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.G Mobile is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.G Mobile is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.G Mobile is kind of a big deal around here, people know him.
Default

Production is a check box in college for me. College stats are very subjective now days. Average NFL QBs can put up 40 Td's a season in some offenses. A lot of completion percentages are bloated by bubble screens and easy pass safe passes. You can't just look at stats to determine the quality of a player.

However if a guy has no production its a big red flag for me. Guys with superior athletic ability should be producing at the college level. If a guy lacks the #'s then you really need to go back and look at the tape to see what happened.
G Mobile is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.