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Old 04-12-2013, 12:23 PM    (permalink
BallerT1215
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Originally Posted by NMfootball85 View Post
Yeah Colt Breenan who played in Hawii against no competition who was 6'2 and had average to low numbers who was drafted in the 6th and couldnt make it on a at the time bad redskins squad was a system QB..
2006 406 559 5549 72.6 9.93 79 58 12

Jones is 6'4 230 lbs played in the big twelve against top 25 competition. He out preformed 7 previous 1st round QB's in the last 6 years, (young, Bradford, Gabbert, Tannehill, weedon, freeman) Bradford and Tannehill will be good. Jones who is the all time leading big 12 passer is not a system guy and deserves his shot it wil get it..
What??

No, Landry Jones is a SYSTEM QB. If you want to go off stats, there would be a ton of guys who "would have been" awesome in the NFL. At Oklahoma, Landry goes to the line, looks at the defense, then he looks at the sideline, and then he either stays with the original play or switches to a bubble screen/hitch that the coach just audibled to. Have you ever noticed how every play literally takes almost all of the play clock????

Landry is a system QB. Get over it.
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"I wasn't going to lose to Miami, no matter what," Freeman said. "It means a lot to go out there and beat them. Every time I get a chance, I want to destroy them."
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:25 PM    (permalink
brasho
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First off. Freeman did not have 3 coordinators in 4 years. Jagazinski was fired but they kept the same offense. He was in the same offense for 3 years.

2nd. Matt Ryan had to learn a new offense as well in 2012. He didn't have a problem.

There's too many excuses that surround josh freeman tht I just get sick of. Yeah the secondary was bad but I can't tell you how many times you watch him stall drives. #captain 3 and out or captain turnover.

He has several 4th qtr comebacks but they've been against poor defenses. Even in 2010 his worst performances came gainst playoff caliber teams.
Still plays his worst.

He doesn't look off defenders , doesn't anticipate well, stares down his first read and won't go through progressions, lacks poise, gets rattled easily, and inconsistent mehancics and footwork.

Not to mention his ability to read defenses comes in to question. He flourished in situations last ear when defenses stacked the 8 men in the box and gave 1-1 matchups with Jackson and Williams and he hit some deep balls. After that 5 game stretch starting with Carolina defenses started mixing coverages and easily read Freeman's eyes as they don't move from that first read. They stay locked to that side of the field and it's an easy tell. Too much tunnel vision. Not only that but mixing up zone and man really confused him. Blitzes rattled him

He ranked 25th in the league in 3rd completion percentage and conversions at under34%.
Okay, great analysis. One would think if you truly had an iota of footbal acumen that you would want to see Freeman in his 5th year, or 2nd full season under the same system... instead of proclaiming Aaron Murray the greatest thing since sliced bread, etc.

Say what you want about OC's... he had 3 in 4 seasons. Basically, the whole first five months of classroom work he had as a pro was scrapped completely when Jagodzinski was fired. Don't even try to tell me that has ZERO impact because everybody know it does. And then the guy they replaced him with was the same guy that took "The Greatest Show on Turf" and made them into "The Greatest Turd to Show" in Gregg Olsen.

As Funbuncher said, his career path is remarkably similar thus far to Eli Manning's and Joe Flacco. The very least he deserves is a 5th year to see if he can put it all together. He's had an excellent season (2010), a remarkable statistical season marked by inconsistency (2012), and he's had a down season (2011-also a season in which no Buc performed well). He's still outperforming Drew Brees, Alex Smith, and on par with Flacco and Eli at the same stages of their careers.

Your claim of staring down WRs and not going through reads is completely symptomatic of a QB that is not yet comfortable with the offense he is running. The terminology, the route trees, the protections were all completely different. That is a ton for a young QB to have to change around. This year will be different... if not, by all means replace him.
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Old 04-12-2013, 12:27 PM    (permalink
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A good QB elevates the play of others around him. Vincent Jackson, Doug Martin, and other guys is MORE than enough for a good QB to put up top-10 production.

I hate when people make excuses like "He doesn't have a good RB" or "he has no playmakers".

Look at the 2010/2011 Colts. It sure looked like there were a lot of playmakers there when Peyton Manning was playing. And then all of sudden, the playmakers suddenly disappeared when the starting QBs were Kerry Collins and Curtis Painter! How strange...
Who is this Peyton guy you mention and why can't every team just go get one?
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Old 04-12-2013, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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What??

No, Landry Jones is a SYSTEM QB. If you want to go off stats, there would be a ton of guys who "would have been" awesome in the NFL. At Oklahoma, Landry goes to the line, looks at the defense, then he looks at the sideline, and then he either stays with the original play or switches to a bubble screen/hitch that the coach just audibled to. Have you ever noticed how every play literally takes almost all of the play clock????

Landry is a system QB. Get over it.
The offense worked because of Jones accuracy and arm strength and ability... Only 20 percent of Jones passes were check downs or screens.. There are a lot more NFL offenses who are going to this type of spread shotgun offense cause it works. Regardless it was Jones who had to read the defense and make the throw and get the completion.. He has the most arm talent of anyone in this class.. Dismiss him if you want but you will be proven wrong when he is drafted in the first or second and starts..
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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Profootballtalk reports trade discussions between the Jets and Bucs for Darrelle Revis have included the possibility of Tampa Bay acquiring Mark Sanchez as part of the deal.
The Bucs are looking for someone to push Josh Freeman, but Sanchez and his fully guaranteed $8.25 million salary makes little sense. Sanchez would barely be an upgrade on Dan Orlovsky as the No. 2. The Jets would jump at the chance to unload Sanchez, and it would likely cost the Bucs less in terms of compensation. Tampa Bay also has loads of cap room, but we still can't see it happening.
Related: Buccaneers
Source: Profootballtalk on NBC Sports Apr 12 - 4:06 PM
That escalated quickly.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:22 PM    (permalink
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That escalated quickly.
I don't think it makes that much sense from either side. Bucs shouldn't want Sanchez eating up cap space (though maybe they have enough, still it seems kind of pointless), Jets have enough cap space that they should hang onto him for a year until he becomes cuttable. Don't see the point in taking less compensation for Revis to unload a guy you can cut in a year.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:25 PM    (permalink
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Do it just so we can get some hot Tebow action. Spin moves are the new pocket presence.
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Old 04-12-2013, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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I don't think it makes that much sense from either side. Bucs shouldn't want Sanchez eating up cap space (though maybe they have enough, still it seems kind of pointless), Jets have enough cap space that they should hang onto him for a year until he becomes cuttable. Don't see the point in taking less compensation for Revis to unload a guy you can cut in a year.
From a Jets fan perspective I agree, especially AFTER free agency.

But the same goes for the Bucs...

Plus the Jets are more worried about PR than any team in the league and unloading Sanchez could be seen as a huge move to the majority of their fanbase. It would play well publicly. Just to get rid of him would look good. Not saying that's smart, but it's Woody Johnson we're talking about.
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Old 04-12-2013, 04:22 PM    (permalink
bucfan12
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Okay, great analysis. One would think if you truly had an iota of footbal acumen that you would want to see Freeman in his 5th year, or 2nd full season under the same system... instead of proclaiming Aaron Murray the greatest thing since sliced bread, etc.

Say what you want about OC's... he had 3 in 4 seasons. Basically, the whole first five months of classroom work he had as a pro was scrapped completely when Jagodzinski was fired. Don't even try to tell me that has ZERO impact because everybody know it does. And then the guy they replaced him with was the same guy that took "The Greatest Show on Turf" and made them into "The Greatest Turd to Show" in Gregg Olsen.

As Funbuncher said, his career path is remarkably similar thus far to Eli Manning's and Joe Flacco. The very least he deserves is a 5th year to see if he can put it all together. He's had an excellent season (2010), a remarkable statistical season marked by inconsistency (2012), and he's had a down season (2011-also a season in which no Buc performed well). He's still outperforming Drew Brees, Alex Smith, and on par with Flacco and Eli at the same stages of their careers.

Your claim of staring down WRs and not going through reads is completely symptomatic of a QB that is not yet comfortable with the offense he is running. The terminology, the route trees, the protections were all completely different. That is a ton for a young QB to have to change around. This year will be different... if not, by all means replace him.
First of all Brasho, what does Murray have to do with this comment? I liked Aaron Murray as a prospect. You like Josh Freeman. Many outsiders will look at you and think you know squat because Freeman hasn't exactly been lights out.

You bring up stats and say, he's outperforming the likes Brees and on track similarly to Flacco and Eli. Ok, stat wise. Sure. Watch the games. Freeman isn't in the same ball park as those two.

Yes QBs tend to struggle, but Flacco has been clutch from year 1. And in the biggest stages too.

You want a stat Brasho? Here';s this: Freeman was under 34% conversion on 3rd down. 24th in the NFL. That's on par with Ryan Fitzpatrick, Mark Sanchez and the other bottom tier QBs. He's the oddest QB who will over throw a WR deep and under throw his WR on a 5-10 route.

And you say his tunnel vision is the system?> He's done that since year 1. The excuses are running dry.
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Old 04-12-2013, 05:24 PM    (permalink
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From a Jets fan perspective I agree, especially AFTER free agency.

But the same goes for the Bucs...

Plus the Jets are more worried about PR than any team in the league and unloading Sanchez could be seen as a huge move to the majority of their fanbase. It would play well publicly. Just to get rid of him would look good. Not saying that's smart, but it's Woody Johnson we're talking about.
Yeah, touche. I want a new owner.
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Old 04-12-2013, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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Stats are not objective at all, especially in college. There have been plenty of QBs who put up great numbers in college that were in no way indicative of the abilities of the QB. Nobodies can put up numbers in college in the right system. Jones has talent but his numbers are pumped up because of the offense and the sheer number of passes he attempts. Put Luck in Oklahoma in that offense and he puts Jones to shame just like Bradford did. More aattempts doesn't just make completion percentage drop. The only reason Jones has all those records is because he threw the ball a ton, not because he was awesome. He threw a bunch and produced decently for the number of attempts.

Lucks pro stats have nothing to do with college numbers.It's just not a comparison that is valid. Luck had a poor OL and played in on of the most vertical offenses. He did outstanding for what he had to work with. Those are solid numbers for the consistent pressure he faced on his 7 step drops.

Also Luck didnt play in that Sun Bowl game. So Jones beat Tavita Pritchard, who struggled to even complete passes. I rewatched that game last month and he was ******* brutal at QB. It's a completely different game with even a semi competent QB. It was cool watching Trent Richardson play C in that game.
Good points no stats arent the goal, but they represent the goal completions yards first downs touch downs and wins they = performance on the field.. Jones is good and he is very accurate.. high attempts and a high completion % means talent.. but Jones completed 58%65%63% and 66% ave 63%. if it was just the volume then his completion percentage would not be so good. Yes I know that Luck's Percentage will get better as the ol improves and luck is very good.. But saying some guy is amazing with a 69% and 350 passes a year is better than a guy with 65% and 550 passes a year is silly.. you go on runs and in science the bigger your study group the more relieable your results..

Bradford didnt blow jones away He had the same yards but with only 12 more td's and a 68% completion instead of 65% and two more wins comparing Bradford 2008 and Jones 2010.. only jones had two more seasons of success
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Old 04-13-2013, 08:57 AM    (permalink
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First of all Brasho, what does Murray have to do with this comment? I liked Aaron Murray as a prospect. You like Josh Freeman. Many outsiders will look at you and think you know squat because Freeman hasn't exactly been lights out.

You bring up stats and say, he's outperforming the likes Brees and on track similarly to Flacco and Eli. Ok, stat wise. Sure. Watch the games. Freeman isn't in the same ball park as those two.

Yes QBs tend to struggle, but Flacco has been clutch from year 1. And in the biggest stages too.

You want a stat Brasho? Here';s this: Freeman was under 34% conversion on 3rd down. 24th in the NFL. That's on par with Ryan Fitzpatrick, Mark Sanchez and the other bottom tier QBs. He's the oddest QB who will over throw a WR deep and under throw his WR on a 5-10 route.

And you say his tunnel vision is the system?> He's done that since year 1. The excuses are running dry.
Eli was a erratic and inconsistent QB his first 5 years, Flacco is a deep ball thrower who hands the ball off to a top back a whole bunch. Sound familiar?

2012 Third down conversion rates -
Eli - 37.9
Flacco - 37.8
Freeman - 35.2

2012 third down completion percentages -
Eli - 58.6
Flacco - 56.8
Freeman - 56.9

They are so dam similar its not even funny.
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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Good points no stats arent the goal, but they represent the goal completions yards first downs touch downs and wins they = performance on the field.. Jones is good and he is very accurate.. high attempts and a high completion % means talent.. but Jones completed 58%65%63% and 66% ave 63%. if it was just the volume then his completion percentage would not be so good. Yes I know that Luck's Percentage will get better as the ol improves and luck is very good.. But saying some guy is amazing with a 69% and 350 passes a year is better than a guy with 65% and 550 passes a year is silly.. you go on runs and in science the bigger your study group the more relieable your results..

Bradford didnt blow jones away He had the same yards but with only 12 more td's and a 68% completion instead of 65% and two more wins comparing Bradford 2008 and Jones 2010.. only jones had two more seasons of success
Listen to yourself man. TRY to be objective.
It took Landry Jones 134(!!!) more attempts than Bradford to pass for 4700+ yards in 2010.
Bradford had 11.1 yards/per attempt in 2008. In 2010 Jones averaged 7.65.

Only two QBs in the BCS era have thrown for 50+ TDs in a season. Bradford and Colt Brennan. Landry Jones is nowhere near that. There's nearly an exponential difference between throwing for 38 TDs versus 50 TDs.

Bradford's 2008 season did indeed BLOW AWAY any individual season Jones had at OU.

Your wet sloppy bias in favor of Jones craps on almost every argument you make in favor of him.

You should chill until he's drafted IMO. Put the pom-poms down dude.
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Old 04-13-2013, 10:15 AM    (permalink
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Eli was a erratic and inconsistent QB his first 5 years, Flacco is a deep ball thrower who hands the ball off to a top back a whole bunch. Sound familiar?

2012 Third down conversion rates -
Eli - 37.9
Flacco - 37.8
Freeman - 35.2

2012 third down completion percentages -
Eli - 58.6
Flacco - 56.8
Freeman - 56.9

They are so dam similar its not even funny.
Wanna know the difference between Freeman and the other two Super Bowl MVPs? They are clutch in big games. Freeman isn't.

I'm not going to argue with you. Freeman CAN be good at times. There are throws that make you go "WOW". Example: Carolina game at the end last year. The Atlanta game in the finale that escape and then threw a rope to Mike Williams in the back of the endzone. Those are things you like.

The bad? He'll over throw a wide open Mike Williams who could walk into the endzone in that first Atlanta game. He over threw him by 10 yards atleast. The finale: He throws the ball at Jacksons feet twice when he's wide open. And they weere 5-10 yard routes. That washington game, sheesh. On that drive where we had the go ahead Field goal, Free stares down mike Williams in double coverage and throws a dangerous ball, when Vincent Jackson WAS one on one and beat his man and could have walked into the endzone.

Freeman isn't consistent enough and leaves plays on the field. It seems like he doesn't see the field very well or does he process things very quickly (i.e can go through a progression quick enough). He seems to hesitant and lacks confidence in his decision making.

Another thing with Josh Freeman is in drives we have to punt, they really don't move the ball enough. It seems like there are too many 3 and outs. That Redskins Game went: 3 and out, 3 and out, INT, 3 and out 3 and out at one point in the first half and 1st drive of the 2nd half.

I don't care about stats with Josh. He needs to manage football games better and see the field, as well as work on his mechanics. Make enough plays that can win us a ball game. There are times where the defense gets flack for a loss, but doesn't realize how many times Freeman's inability to move the chains puts them in bad field position or not enough time on the sideline. Does he have accuracy? Sure he does. But it's so inconsistent. He can be accurate. Some of the throws he's made in the past can light up and fire up the crowd. Then there are throws that make you go WTF.

I hope he puts it together, but I would not be shocked if Schiano pushes for a QB in rounds 2-5, just to push Freeman. I'd say someone in the 4th round, like Renfree or Jones in the 4th are options. Not saying they'll be starter material, but it could send a message to Freeman to improve.

I like the kids work ethic. But I question if it's processing to game speed.

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Old 04-13-2013, 10:31 AM    (permalink
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Listen to yourself man. TRY to be objective.
It took Landry Jones 134(!!!) more attempts than Bradford to pass for 4700+ yards in 2010.
Bradford had 11.1 yards/per attempt in 2008. In 2010 Jones averaged 7.65.

Only two QBs in the BCS era have thrown for 50+ TDs in a season. Bradford and Colt Brennan. Landry Jones is nowhere near that. There's nearly an exponential difference between throwing for 38 TDs versus 50 TDs.

Bradford's 2008 season did indeed BLOW AWAY any individual season Jones had at OU.

Your wet sloppy bias in favor of Jones craps on almost every argument you make in favor of him.

You should chill until he's drafted IMO. Put the pom-poms down dude.
I'm not sure what to think of Landry Jones. It's concerning why he was never the QB inside the redzone, so if you're a team looking for a QB, that has to pop into your mind. He does have upside as a starter though in this league.

I see him similar to Matt Schaub coming out. A guy with upside, but not ready to play right away. Will have to develop and become a quality back up. Whether or not he can be a starter remains to be seen.
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Old 04-13-2013, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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Does every freaking thread have to wind up about Landry Jones freaking statistics in college? I used to like the guy but the more you post about his stats the more I am down on him. Make a thread "everything Landry Jones"
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:17 AM    (permalink
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Say what you want about OC's... he had 3 in 4 seasons. Basically, the whole first five months of classroom work he had as a pro was scrapped completely when Jagodzinski was fired. Don't even try to tell me that has ZERO impact because everybody know it does. And then the guy they replaced him with was the same guy that took "The Greatest Show on Turf" and made them into "The Greatest Turd to Show" in Gregg Olsen.


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Freeman has only ever played under 2 offensive coordinators.... going into his 5th season.


I know you are trying to dummy up the stat, including the 3 or 4 months Freeman worked with Jeff Jagodzinski right after he was drafted, but Freeman also had another 2 months to get into rhythm with numnuts' playbook after the firing and before he hit the field in week 9 or 10 his rookie year.


This isn't exactly a Jason Campbell-esque situation with merry-O.C.-go-round that you are making it out to be.




That excuse drives me absolutely bonkers.



It has little impact. Freeman spent 14 weeks on the Jagodzinski playbook, and then 9 weeks with Olsen's modified playbook before his first start. And he never got any better under Olsen the whole time over the next 112 weeks...... so your argument (that he'd have improved over time in one system) has been rendered moot by Freeman himself, with his play. You can analyze and cry all you want, you cannot escape that fact.



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Your claim of staring down WRs and not going through reads is completely symptomatic of a QB that is not yet comfortable with the offense he is running. The terminology, the route trees, the protections were all completely different. That is a ton for a young QB to have to change around. This year will be different... if not, by all means replace him.

Excuses.


What was his excuse staring down targets at Kansas State? The Jerry curls got in his way? Please. Quit while you are behind.


Freeman has had that issue since he was 18, and it's never been broken. At this point, it likely never will. And he won't win anything because of it. He never has, and never will. We're just wasting time at this point, spinning our wheels trying to develop a non-championship caliber QB.


Your argument here, of uncomfort in these offenses, is indicative of one thing and one thing only. Freeman's football IQ. It was a knock coming out of KSU, and it has only proven true to this point. He doesn't understand, or "get" the nuances of playing QB. Plain and simple. Your support of Freeman is noted, but it seems only rooted in wanting the Bucs to possess an elite QB. I want one too. But I am not about to ignore facts, or reality, to try and see something that is not there.

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Old 04-14-2013, 12:27 AM    (permalink
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I'll gladly take Free in Tennessee
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:57 AM    (permalink
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Do it just so we can get some hot Tebow action. Spin moves are the new pocket presence.
Like this ? Just do it tebow ..




wait wait for it or this one?



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Old 04-14-2013, 05:47 AM    (permalink
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Bucs need to trade for tebow and let come back home to Florida.
Someone should punch you.
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Old 04-14-2013, 10:09 AM    (permalink
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It has little impact. Freeman spent 14 weeks on the Jagodzinski playbook, and then 9 weeks with Olsen's modified playbook before his first start. And he never got any better under Olsen the whole time over the next 112 weeks...... so your argument (that he'd have improved over time in one system) has been rendered moot by Freeman himself, with his play. You can analyze and cry all you want, you cannot escape that fact.






Excuses.


What was his excuse staring down targets at Kansas State? The Jerry curls got in his way? Please. Quit while you are behind.


Freeman has had that issue since he was 18, and it's never been broken. At this point, it likely never will. And he won't win anything because of it. He never has, and never will. We're just wasting time at this point, spinning our wheels trying to develop a non-championship caliber QB.


Your argument here, of uncomfort in these offenses, is indicative of one thing and one thing only. Freeman's football IQ. It was a knock coming out of KSU, and it has only proven true to this point. He doesn't understand, or "get" the nuances of playing QB. Plain and simple. Your support of Freeman is noted, but it seems only rooted in wanting the Bucs to possess an elite QB. I want one too. But I am not about to ignore facts, or reality, to try and see something that is not there.
Finally. Someone who actually sees the facts and isn't blinded by homerism.
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:14 PM    (permalink
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I'll gladly take Free in Tennessee
Most fanbases would take him. This is his year. If he doesn't make it, he is done in Tampa and we get the next QB that the fanbase will kick the crap out of.
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:15 PM    (permalink
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Ohhh and Olsen sucks as an offensive mind.
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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Like this ? Just do it tebow ..




wait wait for it or this one?


Oh man this post wins. I wonder what Tebow's spin move rating is in Madden
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Old 04-14-2013, 12:47 PM    (permalink
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Ohhh and Olsen sucks as an offensive mind.
Oh but he had a pretty good 2010. If that was a fluke then the possibility of freeman also being one is high. Remember he still played his worst against good teams.
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