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Old 04-26-2013, 04:21 AM    (permalink
D-Unit
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Originally Posted by DrewyVuitton View Post
95% of the league does not run both. They may mix it in here or there but it's predominately one or the other. Players are drafted to fit scheme.

Quit making **** up
Stop eating up the percentage number. It was a generalization. Our coaches know a hell of a lot more than us on what they will run. The only thing we do here is play the projection guessing game. We are outsiders that try to interpret what we think the team is trying to do or should do and then just for fun, we talk about what we think fits.

In the end, they picked a guy were we have an immediate need and they did a hell of a lot more homework on him than I did. Who am I to say this was bad before he even suits up for us. Let's see how it goes. If he busts, then I can see the criticism being fair.

Not trying to make you happy, you can stay mad. But just because you are, we don't have to be. Insulting personal attacks don't bother me but it's more of a poor reflection on the guys dishing it out. Be mad all you want, just be mature about it. I love the different perspectives. These debates will be remembered as fun times if we can act like adults here.

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Old 04-26-2013, 05:44 AM    (permalink
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Drewy are you really going to be this angry every time Dallas doesn't draft your guy? Cmon man.

Frederick received a 78.7 from NFL.com as a grade. Much higher than Pugh and Long whom were taken at 19 and 20. The grade is also within 1.5 of Sly, Elam, and pretty much every other pick between 18 and 31. Given that Mayock's opinion is factored in that means the rest of the analysts must have given Frederick an extremely high grade.

Gil Brandt, former Vice President of Personnel and chief scout, had Frederick mocked to 24 and 26 during the process. So this "all esteemed experts" hate Frederick is absolute bunk.

Was Frederick a reach based on pre-draft rankings? Absolutely. I think the majority of the league had him as an early to mid 2nd rounder. The same region as Justin Pugh and Kyle Long. Do pre-draft rankings mean a whole lot when you highly scout, workout, and interview five prospects whom pre-draft were rated between the first and second round? Nope. Obviously.

Dallas pre-draft had the 5 national invite prospects between their 18 and 47 picks with Cooper, Warmack, Pugh, Long, and our pick Frederick. They went in that exact order despite draftnik ratings for Pugh, Long, and Frederick putting them solidly in the second round.

As an aside why int he world are we trusting Mayock to grade offensive lineman? Remember Bruce Campbell being a "lock" to the Raiders a few years again. Mayock was all over that. Mayock is an excellent judge of talent for the secondary but he has no business scouting offensive lineman.


Now all of that aside. As I mentioned before it is a reach but Dallas could NOT miss out on a top tier interior talent given the state of our line. We couldn't add a prospect like David Arkin and allow Tony to take pressure up the middle again this year. We took the 22nd rated player on our board (highest available) at the 31st draft slot and we picked up a 3rd rounder to boot. Traditional board has us losing on the trade and I fully agree although the Football Perspective Draft Value Chart has us gaining slightly so we are at least close to the ballpark.

Also for those still concerned with the prospects (not where he was taken) step back and watch some film :)


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Old 04-26-2013, 08:08 AM    (permalink
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So is Frederick expected to be our starting center to begin the season, or will he be a guard initially?

Read over previous opinions of the pick and not going to take a side either way. Obviously a bit disappointed some of the other players we preferred didn't slip and somewhat annoyed we didn't grab an additional 7th from the Niners.

In any case, welcome aboard Travis.

Players I like in the 2nd round:
Damontre Moore
Kawaan Short
Menelik Watson
Tank Carradine
Johnathan Cyprien
Larry Warford
Terron Armstead
DJ Swearinger

Players I like in the 3rd round:
Alex Okafor
David Amerson
Johnathan Franklin
Jordan Hill
Bennie Logan
JJ Wilcox
Phillip Thomas
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:31 AM    (permalink
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Bill Polian describes as Frederick as a "Bill-Callahan-prototype. A big, solid, wide road grader. He can handle any nose tackle in football, he can drive block exceptionally well."

“We’re going to put a base in there where you don’t have a knock-back issue,” Jones said. “Bill Callahan is a big center guy. After your left tackle, he likes the center position as far as the best players on the offensive line. Well, we’ve got Costa. We’re pretty proud of Costa, frankly. Well, can this guy play guard? You bet he can.”

Added head coach Jason Garrett: “Because he has position flex and has played a full season at either spot, we feel good about maybe plugging him in at either spot and having him compete with the guys on our roster. We haven’t made that determination right now. We like competition, as you guys know, and he’ll certainly be very much in the mix.”
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:36 AM    (permalink
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I think both our teams screwed the pooch by passing on Floyd, but at the same time, we both got good players. Nothing to be upset about.

At the end of the day, DTs have high bust rates, so I'm not gonna be too upset about it, and having a versatile OLmen who can play all 5 positions isn't a bad thing.

We both lost out on Eric Reid too, which stinks, but it's not like either team got a bad player.
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:45 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Go Cowboys View Post
Just a quick thought: Not sure how I feel about the pick but it brought back a memory. Patriots and Belicheck trading down to the late 1st... And taking a guy that some rated as a 3rd round guard, most as a 2nd round....Logan Mankins.... It's worked pretty well for them considering every analyst was screaming reach.

Not saying this guy will be as good as Mankins, but who's to say we didn't have him graded as a high 2nd rounder and had a feeling he wouldn't make it to our next pick? If he starts and is consistent for 10 years it's a great pick.
I remember that because people were saying that they should have gotten Baas instead. People take their own board and try to force it on teams, but teams should stick with their gut. Belichick is the type of guy that doesn't give a rat's ass what the analysts think. He'll take whoever he thinks is worth it, and that's one reason why they're always picking in the bottom half of the rounds. Considering the Cowboys have done a damn good job in the first three rounds of the past three drafts there leads some credence to them having a good eye for talent now. After that it's a different story, but that's for another day. My point is that if they really see something in Frederick then it might not be so dumb.

Also it's funny how people call him a second rounder when he got picked two picks before the second round even started. It's not that bad considering that the end of the round is pretty much the second round anyway, and there's no way to tell if he was going to last 19 more picks to their next pick unless you specifically got a look at every other team's big board. It amazes me how so many people only got a few picks right on their mock, but they're 100% sure no one was going to take Frederick until the late second or third round. It's the same type of mentality that leads to saying the same thing verbatim while constantly dismissing the past. Every year a tackle "is going to be your guy for the next 10 years as a Pro Bowler." Only a few times that's been proven, but every year people keep saying it. Too many draft analysts are arrogant.
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:14 AM    (permalink
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I think both our teams screwed the pooch by passing on Floyd, but at the same time, we both got good players. Nothing to be upset about.

At the end of the day, DTs have high bust rates, so I'm not gonna be too upset about it, and having a versatile OLmen who can play all 5 positions isn't a bad thing.

We both lost out on Eric Reid too, which stinks, but it's not like either team got a bad player.
Yeah, that's what I keep telling folks is that there were a lot of teams that passed on Floyd. There's something there.
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:16 AM    (permalink
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I remember that because people were saying that they should have gotten Baas instead. People take their own board and try to force it on teams, but teams should stick with their gut. Belichick is the type of guy that doesn't give a rat's ass what the analysts think. He'll take whoever he thinks is worth it, and that's one reason why they're always picking in the bottom half of the rounds. Considering the Cowboys have done a damn good job in the first three rounds of the past three drafts there leads some credence to them having a good eye for talent now. After that it's a different story, but that's for another day. My point is that if they really see something in Frederick then it might not be so dumb.

Also it's funny how people call him a second rounder when he got picked two picks before the second round even started. It's not that bad considering that the end of the round is pretty much the second round anyway, and there's no way to tell if he was going to last 19 more picks to their next pick unless you specifically got a look at every other team's big board. It amazes me how so many people only got a few picks right on their mock, but they're 100% sure no one was going to take Frederick until the late second or third round. It's the same type of mentality that leads to saying the same thing verbatim while constantly dismissing the past. Every year a tackle "is going to be your guy for the next 10 years as a Pro Bowler." Only a few times that's been proven, but every year people keep saying it. Too many draft analysts are arrogant.
I agree with you. I think there's a ton of overreaction to this pick. I agree that it's a bit too early for him, but virtually all the OL went early. Hell, there were 2 guards in the top 10! How unprecedented is that!? It's a weird draft.

So all the folks yelling about taking a 2nd round guy too early, would you have been okay with Frederick at 33?

Franklin I think Long and Pugh were a much bigger reach than Frederick.

Now, the trade is something I think we all agree that we didn't get enough value.
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:24 AM    (permalink
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Yeah, that's what I keep telling folks is that there were a lot of teams that passed on Floyd. There's something there.
I'm guessing it has to do with a combination of short arms and the fact that he didn't exactly have off the charts production at Florida either. He's a top athlete who's a projection. He's gotta be able to win at the snap with his quickness and if he can't, I'm not sure he can consistantly get off blocks.
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:29 AM    (permalink
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I agree with you. I think there's a ton of overreaction to this pick. I agree that it's a bit too early for him, but virtually all the OL went early. Hell, there were 2 guards in the top 10! How unprecedented is that!? It's a weird draft.

So all the folks yelling about taking a 2nd round guy too early, would you have been okay with Frederick at 33?

Franklin I think Long and Pugh were a much bigger reach than Frederick.

Now, the trade is something I think we all agree that we didn't get enough value.
Well Frederick vs. Pugh/Long is all about what our offensive philosophy is going forward. Man vs. ZBS. Long and Pugh don't really fit a man scheme (especially if they're forced to move inside to guard). I'm not confident Frederick would have still been there at 47 and we already lost value on a trade down once, I can't imagine seeing us do it a second time and getting anything better.
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:33 AM    (permalink
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I agree. This draft has been very unpredictable so far and for folks to simply say, 'well, they could have had him at 47' is a dubious statement.
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:34 AM    (permalink
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Bill Jones ‏ @ CBS11BillJones 34m

NFL GM described Travis Frederick as "best interior run blocking lineman draft has seen in more than half decade"
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:38 AM    (permalink
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I agree. This draft has been very unpredictable so far and for folks to simply say, 'well, they could have had him at 47' is a dubious statement.
Exactly. And then they have to hope Barrett Jones is there in the 3rd and if they whiff there... it just continues.

Clearly Dallas understands it has a weakness on the interior line and it's possible Frederick would provide an upgrade over their current guards as well as the center position.

I think people tend to think of a player as a number. (i.e. Travis Frederick is the #53 prospect, ect) but they fail to understand that the players reside in tiers and Frederick was probably clumped into a group that consisted of players 20 through 40 and when you look at that, then it's a perfect pick that addresses a need and is STILL an appropriate value.
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Old 04-26-2013, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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Bill Jones ‏ @ CBS11BillJones 34m

NFL GM described Travis Frederick as "best interior run blocking lineman draft has seen in more than half decade"
While I wouldn't necessarily agree with that, I do think they concerns of him getting to the 2nd level and to a lesser extent his pass protection can be vastly improved with a professional strength and conditioning program as well as better coaching in those areas. Frederick is a very VERY solid pick who is probably the safest interior line prospect outside of Warmack.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:28 AM    (permalink
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Good article by Sturm.

http://sturminator.blogspot.com/2013...-thoughts.html
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:29 AM    (permalink
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If you keep digging this isn't a shocking pick. Even Tony Pauline called Frederick in the first round. People got REALLY wrapped up in the combine performance and threw away the tape.

Quote:
@TonyPauline nailed it back on Feb. 12

- Last year Kevin Zeitler of Wisconsin was a surprise selection in round one when the Cincinnati Bengals tabbed him with the 27th pick. Who will be the surprise of the first frame this year? At this stage sources tell me it could be Zeitlerís former Badger teammate Travis Frederick. One general manager has referred to Frederick as the best interior run blocking line the draft has witnessed in more than a half-decade.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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Bill Jones ‏ @ CBS11BillJones 34m

NFL GM described Travis Frederick as "best interior run blocking lineman draft has seen in more than half decade"
Nice find! But when was he a GM and for who? I've never heard of him.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Back in August before the season began I remember this thread about Frederick on these boards...

Travis Frederick: Best OG Prospect since Hutch

http://draftcountdown.com/forum/showthread.php?t=53655

Started off like this...

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Originally Posted by Duffman57 View Post
I know we went through all this last year with DeCastro, but i never bought into it, he just wasn't enough of a mauler for me, didn't get the movement to be a truely elite LG for my liking. We went through it with Iupati, but he was extremely raw. Same with Duke Robinson just didn't have the mobility to play with the top guys. I never bought into the hype of these guys. But Fredrick is a guy that, from what i've seen, is absolutely 100% DESERVING of that Hutch mention.

But i was watching some guys on the Wisky OL, and i kept noticing him, and i'll tell you what...he's an elite OG, and like the title says, i'm convinced that he's the best since, maybe even as good as Hutch as a prospect.

He does it all. First of all, at 6'4" 340, he is the Mauler that he should be, and is. Gets massive movement in the run game. Natural knee bender, great punch, and almost every snap, wins the leverage battle, and just drives guys of the line.

Then you can really notice him in space. While he's 340, and slower than most OL...he looks GREAT in space pulling. When pulling on those shorter inside runs, he's dominant, hits a guy and just rams a hole wide open. A big thing is that he's incredibly quick out of his stance, so he can get out without any disturbances. But he can struggle when asked to pull on tosses or sweeps. This is his only problem that i see, is that when pulling on long pulls, not just traps/counters, he can lag behind the RB, and become useless, but he's usually good at, even if he's a little slow or behind the RB, he finds someone to hit and make a hole.

In the 3rd and final phase of most OG's jobs, he may have the most perfect technique i've seen in a OG. Quick feet, head up, as i said before, natural knee bender and really good punch, doesn't lunge at his man/trusts his punch/anchor, stays home and if nobody comes at him, goes and finds somebody to hit.

AND THEN...

I go to watch the Michigan State game, and notice the C. Oh wait, now announcing the 2012 Wisconsin Starting Center....TRAVIS FREDERICK...

There's VERY few 340lb guys are quick enough out of their stance to go head up on a guy, snap the ball, and then get into good enough position to win the leverage battle vs Shorter, stockier NT's.

He's starting at C all this year for Wisconsin as well, which only bumps his value up.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:00 AM    (permalink
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Bill Jones ‏ @ CBS11BillJones 34m

NFL GM described Travis Frederick as "best interior run blocking lineman draft has seen in more than half decade"
so this gm is basically saying travis frederick is a better run blocker than chance warmack

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Originally Posted by Rev Bolyard View Post
Exactly. And then they have to hope Barrett Jones is there in the 3rd and if they whiff there... it just continues.

Clearly Dallas understands it has a weakness on the interior line and it's possible Frederick would provide an upgrade over their current guards as well as the center position.


I think people tend to think of a player as a number. (i.e. Travis Frederick is the #53 prospect, ect) but they fail to understand that the players reside in tiers and Frederick was probably clumped into a group that consisted of players 20 through 40 and when you look at that, then it's a perfect pick that addresses a need and is STILL an appropriate value.
and dallas clearly doesn't understand it has big need at dt which is the key to making this defensive scheme work


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I agree. This draft has been very unpredictable so far and for folks to simply say, 'well, they could have had him at 47' is a dubious statement.
the difference with frederick is he an interior lineman only, teams will reach for a guy that can play tackle, but not a guard only or center. the run on lineman will not last. 6 teams took o-lineman in the top 12. 12 of the 15 teams that pick ahead of us have already drafted a lineman i expect those team to grabbing skill player, only 5 offensive skill players were even selected in the first, and all the running backs are still on the board ,and just looking at it now san diego is the only team has a big need for G/C, im willing to bet that when the cowboys get back on the board at 47 G/C will the best value on the board

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Old 04-26-2013, 11:21 AM    (permalink
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So apparently this guy is a big, nasty, strong interior lineman. We may not have utilized the best value of our picks, but it's something we desperately need on the this team. But how happy would everyone have been if we would have grabbed Floyd at 18 and Frederick at 47. Norm mentioned a rumor that Floyd was ranked the 7th best player on the Cowboy's board, and we could have had him at 18.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:28 AM    (permalink
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Nice find! But when was he a GM and for who? I've never heard of him.
Bill Jones is a news guy here in DFW. He's quoting another GM.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:03 PM    (permalink
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So apparently this guy is a big, nasty, strong interior lineman. We may not have utilized the best value of our picks, but it's something we desperately need on the this team. But how happy would everyone have been if we would have grabbed Floyd at 18 and Frederick at 47. Norm mentioned a rumor that Floyd was ranked the 7th best player on the Cowboy's board, and we could have had him at 18.
Everyone would have be super excited to have seen Floyd at 18 and Frederick at 47, but no one could have been certain that he'd still have been there at 47. This is the reverse of last year when Dallas traded up to get Claiborne. They obviously have Claiborne, but they could have had David DeCastro + Casey Hayward.

Now with no promise Frederick would still be there at 47, you have your option:

#18 Sharrif Floyd
#47 Travis Frederick

OR

#31 Travis Frederick
#47 Kawaan Short
#74 JJ Wilcox

OR

#31 Travis Frederick
#47 Johnathan Cyprien
#74 Bennie Logan

OR

#31 Travis Frederick
#47 Menelik Watson
#74 Phillip Thomas
#80 Jordan Hill

There are still a ton of different scenarios and eventually in this next 2 rounds there's going to be a run on quarterbacks and runningbacks. There's still some real interesting defensive tackles left including Short, Logan, Hill, Everett Dawkins, Josh Boyd and Akeem Spence.

And there's still EXCELLENT value at defensive end:
Damontre Moore
Tank Carradine
Margus Hunt
Alex Okafor
Quanterus Smith
William Gholston
Sam Montgomery

And a single pick of one of those guys could shuffle Crawford inside where you'd now have Ratliff, Hatcher, Lissemore, and Crawford to go with Brian Price, Ben Bass, and Robert Callaway. You'd probably have your "bodies" you'd just need to fit them into the holes.

There's a bunch of different ways to skin a cat left in this draft and the Cowboys could address that defensive tackle position a couple different ways going forward. Keep in mind they could still trade back into round 2 with their 2 3rd rounders if there's someone they like there.

Yesterday Dallas was at the mercy of how things fell in front of them. Now they have the necessary ammunition to trade up or move around to get who they want. Expect to get some really good value today.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:26 PM    (permalink
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Not trying to make you happy, you can stay mad. But just because you are, we don't have to be. Insulting personal attacks don't bother me but it's more of a poor reflection on the guys dishing it out. Be mad all you want, just be mature about it. I love the different perspectives. These debates will be remembered as fun times if we can act like adults here.
Lol we've proven that we can't, some people just can't destroy the pick but have to start dishing it around to posters with their 'God complex.



After thinking on it overnight, I really like that they at least wanted an interior lineman as bad as I did because frankly it was a huge problem. Originally I said "well he could at least been our 2nd rounder" but then I started reading things like this :


Quote:
The New York Daily News believes the Jets could target Alabama G/C Barrett Jones in a trade down from No. 39.
Jones famously played all five line positions for the Crimson Tide, but is recovering from Lisfranc surgery to his left foot. Jones would be targeted as a guard by Gang Green with Nick Mangold entrenched at center. Apr 26 - 10:52 AM
Source: Manish Mehta on Twitter

Now, 2 days ago wouldn't we have said Barrett Jones was a 2nd/3rd round prospect also? Yet here he is potentially going as a top 40 pick, same way Pugh and Long went before anyone expected them to. So I don't know that I buy Frederick was gonna make it to our 2nd. If Barrett Jones does go pick 39, is Frederick still a bad pick at 31?


Now I wanted to go Reid, Cyprien, or Elam at either of the 1st rd picks and take whatever interior lineman falls to you in the 2nd, but I'm not going to act like everything I always wanted in the draft was the right thing. We protected Romo, we didn't get flashy or try to make a splash, and I think we got a long term starter.


What bothers me is it just always seems like we don't have a good feel for how the draft is flowing, or value, while some GM's are masterminds at it. Look at the haul of picks New England got, last year SF traded back from the 3rd to the 4th and got a 3rd rounder for it this year, but that's all we could muster in our move back. It sucks because SF obviously coveted Reid, and we should have done better then just get that 3rd, and Floyd is immense value there at a position of need even if he is a bust. So all that, plus Reid & Elam going to two teams who need Safeties around us stings too.


But the more info I read seems like we didn't reach too bad, so if we can still go sign a tackle I'll feel better. It's not my preference, but I can live with it. I just want to focus on today and who we can add with our 3 picks vs re hash Jerry Jones a million times or feel good about myself by calling people homers.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:28 PM    (permalink
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Though thinking about the Ravens Safeties makes me sad. Huff and Elam. I pictured that as a legit option for us a month ago. They complement eachother well. And watch Reid be a pro bowler in SF. Even Dashon Goldson wasn't as good as he was made out to be in that scheme, when you have a front 7 like theirs, it's going to highlight all his strengths and mask all his weaknesses.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 04-26-2013, 12:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Rev Bolyard View Post
Everyone would have be super excited to have seen Floyd at 18 and Frederick at 47, but no one could have been certain that he'd still have been there at 47. This is the reverse of last year when Dallas traded up to get Claiborne. They obviously have Claiborne, but they could have had David DeCastro + Casey Hayward.
There are still a ton of different scenarios and eventually in this next 2 rounds there's going to be a run on quarterbacks and runningbacks. There's still some real interesting defensive tackles left including Short, Logan, Hill, Everett Dawkins, Josh Boyd and Akeem Spence.

And there's still EXCELLENT value at defensive end:
Damontre Moore
Tank Carradine
Margus Hunt
Alex Okafor
Quanterus Smith
William Gholston
Sam Montgomery

And a single pick of one of those guys could shuffle Crawford inside where you'd now have Ratliff, Hatcher, Lissemore, and Crawford to go with Brian Price, Ben Bass, and Robert Callaway. You'd probably have your "bodies" you'd just need to fit them into the holes.

There's a bunch of different ways to skin a cat left in this draft and the Cowboys could address that defensive tackle position a couple different ways going forward. Keep in mind they could still trade back into round 2 with their 2 3rd rounders if there's someone they like there.

Yesterday Dallas was at the mercy of how things fell in front of them. Now they have the necessary ammunition to trade up or move around to get who they want. Expect to get some really good value today.
I like the way your put together this post. I do agree that the Cowboys come into Day 2 in a power position. We have 3 picks today and we've been talking A LOT about how the strength of this draft is in the 2nd and 3rd rounds.

When I look at what the Giants and Bears did in taking Pugh and Long right after us... If you look at that value versus Frederick.... I'd way rather have Frederick and that 3rd than Pugh or Long by themselves.

Frederick is NASTY! I'm listening to ESPN Dallas Radio right now. His old Wisconsin OL coach who is now at Arkansas just said Travis broke several of his teammates arms and wrists in practice throwing them down to the ground. Talked about his nasty streak and said he had to talk to Travis "Hey we can't have that now. These are our own guys". Great listen if it's ever put on a podcast. Fitz and Durrett have been bashing the pick all day, but after this interview they got happy about the pick.
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