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Old 04-29-2013, 07:42 PM    (permalink
pocketaces
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Warford is not a Center prospect though. How can you compare him to Frederick? ...and really if you look at it, he's a much worse athlete than Frederick. You would think from the criticism Frederick gets about his mobility that Warford would come out ahead right? Well, not so.

Frederick 40: 5.58
Warford 40: 5.58

Frederick Vert: 28.5
Warford Vert: 22.5

Frederick Shuttle: 4.76
Warford Shuttle: 5.1

Also, I don't think you understand yet that Frederick being there at 47 is not a lock. Because you keep saying it like it's a fact. You can't give justification that no other OL was taken. Maybe teams thought that there wasn't another one left worth taking after he was off the board. But if he was on the board, maybe he goes shortly after. We don't know that. ...and the Cowboys certainly didn't know that. With hindsight, I bet teams wish they did things differently, but that's not how it works. Players get taken off their own merit and team needs.
no Ive said that I believe he would have been there at 47 BUT if he wasnt we could get a similar graded player. Fredrick is an upgrade just like Worford would have been an upgrade. I would have been fine with either one in the 2nd round. If we would have taken Worford at 31, I would be just as pissed. IMO we could have gotten a STUD at 18 or even at 31 but we passed to fill a need.
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Old 04-29-2013, 07:49 PM    (permalink
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No, I get that but lets just say that over the years when most of the talking heads say we reached for a player they are usually right. I cant give Jerry the benifit of the doubt. His track record is way to poor to trust he got this right, and I dont mean just on Fredrick I mean on all the guys we passed for fredrick as well. We'll see what happen, but right now I feel like we passed on better guys. Just my opinion
Sure, we might have passed on better guys. But we have to look in the end to see if that one player is better than both Frederick and Williams. Not just Frederick. ...and we also have to eliminate the guys that didn't fit our need at the time. I'd argue that Floyd isn't as big a need as Frederick all day long. We're much better off at DT than OC/OG. Our concern at DT is a future concern and a depth concern. Our need on the interior OL is now.

BTW, the talking heads are not usually right. Seattle was a laughing stock taking Irvin at 13 last year and Wilson in Round 3. One 8 sack rookie season and a rookie QB leading them to the playoffs later and those talking heads are now talking about how great Seattle is at drafting.
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Old 04-29-2013, 07:51 PM    (permalink
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And then theres this...

Bryan Broaddus ‏@BryanBroaddus 19m
“@jakeplaster: @BryanBroaddus why do u like Hanna over Escobar as the 2nd TE” Hanna is quicker and better in routes. Hands are developing.

Thinks Hannah is the better option as the 2nd TE. Said he would have drafted a blocker in the 2nd. I couldnt agree more. Flash over substance.
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Old 04-29-2013, 07:53 PM    (permalink
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no Ive said that I believe he would have been there at 47 BUT if he wasnt we could get a similar graded player. Fredrick is an upgrade just like Worford would have been an upgrade. I would have been fine with either one in the 2nd round. If we would have taken Worford at 31, I would be just as pissed. IMO we could have gotten a STUD at 18 or even at 31 but we passed to fill a need.
There was no similarly graded C available at 47. Warford plays a different position. Warford was taken in the 3rd round, btw. If we took him in Round 2 wouldn't that have been a massive reach for you? I mean really, what hindsight are we gonna use here?

Frederick IS a STUD. He should've been ranked higher than the talking heads had him at. We already know 2 teams had first round grades on him in ATL and IND. There could have been more. We were fortunate to have landed Frederick the way I see it now with hindsight 20/20.
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Old 04-29-2013, 07:56 PM    (permalink
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Sure, we might have passed on better guys. But we have to look in the end to see if that one player is better than both Frederick and Williams. Not just Frederick. ...and we also have to eliminate the guys that didn't fit our need at the time. I'd argue that Floyd isn't as big a need as Frederick all day long. We're much better off at DT than OC/OG. Our concern at DT is a future concern and a depth concern. Our need on the interior OL is now.

BTW, the talking heads are not usually right. Seattle was a laughing stock taking Irvin at 13 last year and Wilson in Round 3. One 8 sack rookie season and a rookie QB leading them to the playoffs later and those talking heads are now talking about how great Seattle is at drafting.
Ok so Seattle hit on a couple of "reaches" although I dont remember anybody saying Wilson was a reach in the 3rd round. When was the last time we did that? Who have we "reached" on that has turned into studs?
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:03 PM    (permalink
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And then theres this...

Bryan Broaddus ‏@BryanBroaddus 19m
“@jakeplaster: @BryanBroaddus why do u like Hanna over Escobar as the 2nd TE” Hanna is quicker and better in routes. Hands are developing.

Thinks Hannah is the better option as the 2nd TE. Said he would have drafted a blocker in the 2nd. I couldnt agree more. Flash over substance.
James Hanna is quicker and could run better routes than Jason Witten. That doesn't make him better.

If there's one thing to say about pass catching ability... by the time you are in the NFL, you either have it or you don't. How long did we wait for Bennett for his hands to develop? Why can't every team just develop hands? Why can't NFL teams take Track stars and turn them into receivers? Devin Hester has the jukiest moves in the world but could never establish himself as a real receiving threat. Same with Josh Cribbs. I fear the same with James Hanna. He's gonna catch some balls, but he is NOT a receiving threat that can be compared to Escobar.

Broaddus has been a part of some terrible Dallas drafts. He maintained good relationships with the organization and that's why he's still linked there. But if he could get a scouting job with another team, I bet he would take it. He understands the business of it and how the system works, and he may know some guys in the inside, but his weight on prospects don't usually sit well with me. I'll listen to him if he has a rumor to share from the inside, but I won't listen to him much in regards to his scouting reports.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:04 PM    (permalink
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There was no similarly graded C available at 47. Warford plays a different position. Warford was taken in the 3rd round, btw. If we took him in Round 2 wouldn't that have been a massive reach for you? I mean really, what hindsight are we gonna use here?

Frederick IS a STUD. He should've been ranked higher than the talking heads had him at. We already know 2 teams had first round grades on him in ATL and IND. There could have been more. We were fortunate to have landed Frederick the way I see it now with hindsight 20/20.
LOL where did I say it had to be a center? Center, Guard, Tackle, doesnt matter we would have got a higher rated player in the 1st AND an upgrade to our line. You can say so and so had a 1st round grade on him but they all passed, every single team. When Floyd dropped to 23 everybody said "there has to be a reason" cant the same be said for Fredrick dropping to 31 if hes a big time STUD? Warford had a 2nd round grade by most accounts so that team got good value getting him in the 3rd. We took a guy in the first that some said was a 3rd rounder, seems like a bit of a difference there to me.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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James Hanna is quicker and could run better routes than Jason Witten. That doesn't make him better.

If there's one thing to say about pass catching ability... by the time you are in the NFL, you either have it or you don't. How long did we wait for Bennett for his hands to develop? Why can't every team just develop hands? Why can't NFL teams take Track stars and turn them into receivers? Devin Hester has the jukiest moves in the world but could never establish himself as a real receiving threat. Same with Josh Cribbs. I fear the same with James Hanna. He's gonna catch some balls, but he is NOT a receiving threat that can be compared to Escobar.

Broaddus has been a part of some terrible Dallas drafts. He maintained good relationships with the organization and that's why he's still linked there. But if he could get a scouting job with another team, I bet he would take it. He understands the business of it and how the system works, and he may know some guys in the inside, but his weight on prospects don't usually sit well with me. I'll listen to him if he has a rumor to share from the inside, but I won't listen to him much in regards to his scouting reports.
But what was the bigger need? A 3rd TE that cant block or a Guard or Tackle?We drafted for need in round 1 then went for a TE and WR which seems like luxury picks with HUGE holes that needed addressed.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:11 PM    (permalink
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Ok so Seattle hit on a couple of "reaches" although I dont remember anybody saying Wilson was a reach in the 3rd round. When was the last time we did that? Who have we "reached" on that has turned into studs?
Wilson in the 3rd was laughable on the forum. He was looked at as a late round guy since he was only 5'11. A huge reach in Round 3.

We don't usually reach... and we barely did with Frederick. If Detroit takes him in Round 2 does that mean we reached?
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:14 PM    (permalink
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But what was the bigger need? A 3rd TE that cant block or a Guard or Tackle?We drafted for need in round 1 then went for a TE and WR which seems like luxury picks with HUGE holes that needed addressed.
A case can be made that our TE and WR filled needs better than the OG or OT available would have.

If anything, I thought there were Safeties that could've filled our needs better. But I knew Garrett would go offensive heavy. I tried to preach that here so no one should've really been shocked.

Your opinions are not being ignored. This discussion is fun, healthy and I think we're doing it in a mature manner! Kudos to ya! :)

I'll try to sign off here. Got stuff to do.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:23 PM    (permalink
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A case can be made that our TE and WR filled needs better than the OG or OT available would have.

If anything, I thought there were Safeties that could've filled our needs better. But I knew Garrett would go offensive heavy. I tried to preach that here so no one should've really been shocked.

Your opinions are not being ignored. This discussion is fun, healthy and I think we're doing it in a mature manner! Kudos to ya! :)

I'll try to sign off here. Got stuff to do.
Yup at this point we are We agree to disagree, but its all good. I hope your right BTW
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:30 PM    (permalink
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And then theres this...

Bryan Broaddus ‏@BryanBroaddus 19m
“@jakeplaster: @BryanBroaddus why do u like Hanna over Escobar as the 2nd TE” Hanna is quicker and better in routes. Hands are developing.

Thinks Hannah is the better option as the 2nd TE. Said he would have drafted a blocker in the 2nd. I couldnt agree more. Flash over substance.
Hanna doesn't have near the length or ball skills Escobar does, and being quicker with better routes doesn't do squat if you can't catch. Hanna doesn't have terrible hands, but I've watched him enough over the years to say they definitely aren't his strength.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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Heard rumblings of all sorts of things. Mentioned it in the discussion thread. They like all three of their TEs and it's been noted that Dallas likes to flex a TE out as a WR to create mismatches in the past with Witten and Hanna.

The "13" personnel grouping (1WR - 3 TE) is typically a run-heavy formation but for Dallas it could be used as a mismatch heaven. All three of our TEs can be flexed out as a WR or kept in to block. Dez will abuse a corner 1v1 whether on a passing play or blocking out with his size.

One play could be flexing out Witten and him being a safety valve across the middle on a drag. Dez runs an angle route (in on a slant then out on a slant). Escobar and Hanna from the end of the lines of scrimmage run seams up the middle of the defense.

From that point Romo sees a number of things. A) Does the FS sit overtop of Dez? If not Dez has single coverage. B) Does the FS cover Escobar or the WLB? If WLB and the FS shifts to Dez the deep middle is open. C) Do both safeties retreat deep to protect against the seams with the linebackers trailing? If yes throw to the Senator for easy yards.

That's only ONE play. Once teams are worried about passing out of that formation all of a sudden you have 9 blockers on the field to open running lanes. Using that same personnel grouping you could also run with a TE in the backfield in the I or flex. You could flex out all 3 TEs with Dez and run a 4WR set against linebackers.

This is the exact reason I think the Escobar selection was made. Not just to develop a future beyond Witten but to abuse wringles in the playbook. If I'm wrong Garrett shouldn't be an offensive coordinator or coach ever again. This is the easiest set of multi-use tools to arrange. You could easily create a gameplan where you never leave the "13" personnel package.
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Old 04-29-2013, 08:45 PM    (permalink
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Heard rumblings of all sorts of things. Mentioned it in the discussion thread. They like all three of their TEs and it's been noted that Dallas likes to flex a TE out as a WR to create mismatches in the past with Witten and Hanna.

The "13" personnel grouping (1WR - 3 TE) is typically a run-heavy formation but for Dallas it could be used as a mismatch heaven. All three of our TEs can be flexed out as a WR or kept in to block. Dez will abuse a corner 1v1 whether on a passing play or blocking out with his size.

One play could be flexing out Witten and him being a safety valve across the middle on a drag. Dez runs an angle route (in on a slant then out on a slant). Escobar and Hanna from the end of the lines of scrimmage run seams up the middle of the defense.

From that point Romo sees a number of things. A) Does the FS sit overtop of Dez? If not Dez has single coverage. B) Does the FS cover Escobar or the WLB? If WLB and the FS shifts to Dez the deep middle is open. C) Do both safeties retreat deep to protect against the seams with the linebackers trailing? If yes throw to the Senator for easy yards.

That's only ONE play. Once teams are worried about passing out of that formation all of a sudden you have 9 blockers on the field to open running lanes. Using that same personnel grouping you could also run with a TE in the backfield in the I or flex. You could flex out all 3 TEs with Dez and run a 4WR set against linebackers.

This is the exact reason I think the Escobar selection was made. Not just to develop a future beyond Witten but to abuse wringles in the playbook. If I'm wrong Garrett shouldn't be an offensive coordinator or coach ever again. This is the easiest set of multi-use tools to arrange. You could easily create a gameplan where you never leave the "13" personnel package.
We will see how JG uses his new toys, the problem is our line still sucks and 2 out of the 3 TEs cant block. Im not optimistic about our run game.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:02 PM    (permalink
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I guess for me, Eifert is FAR superior to Escobar while Fredrick and Warford were closely rated. Either of those guys would be an upgrade to the line but we could have gotten a much better player with our 1st round pick. Same goes with Safety, Cyprien or Elam are FAR superior to Wilcox and still would have gotten Fredrick or Warford at 47.
I see what you're saying about Cyprien and Elam. They were highly regarded as top talents at their position, and have more experience than Wilcox playing safety. I don't mind them going center though because it seems that they were really high on both Frederick and Wilcox. Since safety was supposed to be deep I understand them passing it up to take a top center. Eifert or Escobar are a wash to me either way since I'm not feeling TE that high. Hopefully they prove me wrong with some cool 3 TE sets.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:07 PM    (permalink
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Watford was not on their board per Broaddus.
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Old 04-29-2013, 09:24 PM    (permalink
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Watford was not on their board per Broaddus.
Ok, fair enough. How about SWEARINGER, LOGAN, WINTERS, ARMSTEAD? One of those guys work in round 2?
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Old 04-29-2013, 10:12 PM    (permalink
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The frustration of taking another TE in the 2nd rd. is rehashing the same B.S. offensive philosophy that has failed in the past.

Whether it was coaching/scheme or players not making plays. The Cowboys 2 & 3 TE sets were run oriented & the passes went to Witten.

If they are going to use high draft picks on TE's, then USE them. Don't boast about one's pass catching ability and not throw him the ball.

Just like when they boast about using Escobar in the Red Zone, yeah, we'll see is my reply.

The Cowboys have these huge ideas when they draft a player, but those ideas fail to show themselves when the pads come on.

The two players I am talking about are Felix Jones & Martellus Bennett. All the b.s. about mis-matches, just a lot of hot air.
------------------------------------

Play these rookies & our young players. The only way they are going to learn is to play.

3rd year for OG, David Arkin and 2nd year for him under OL Coach Bill Callahan & Strength/Conditioning Trainer Mike Woicik. I hope this is THE year that he gets IT!

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Old 04-30-2013, 12:30 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DallCowby1 View Post
The frustration of taking another TE in the 2nd rd. is rehashing the same B.S. offensive philosophy that has failed in the past.

Whether it was coaching/scheme or players not making plays. The Cowboys 2 & 3 TE sets were run oriented & the passes went to Witten.

If they are going to use high draft picks on TE's, then USE them. Don't boast about one's pass catching ability and not throw him the ball.

Just like when they boast about using Escobar in the Red Zone, yeah, we'll see is my reply.

The Cowboys have these huge ideas when they draft a player, but those ideas fail to show themselves when the pads come on.

The two players I am talking about are Felix Jones & Martellus Bennett. All the b.s. about mis-matches, just a lot of hot air.
------------------------------------

Play these rookies & our young players. The only way they are going to learn is to play.

3rd year for OG, David Arkin and 2nd year for him under OL Coach Bill Callahan & Strength/Conditioning Trainer Mike Woicik. I hope this is THE year that he gets IT!
Frustration is fair.

I wanna see it too.

The reason why I have hope is because at least I heard of these guys! Matt Johnson, Kyle Wilber, Caleb McSurdy, David Arkin, Robert Brewster, Danny Coale, Bill Nagy, Sean Lissemore, Victor Bulter, Brandon Williams, James Marten, Erik Walden, Pat McQuistan, EJ Whitney... all these turd buckets I never heard of or gave a thought to us taking. ...and that's being on these forums 365 days of the year.

This year I have hope! I heard of these guys before! LMAO. What a sad song.
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:11 AM    (permalink
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Frustration is fair.

I wanna see it too.

The reason why I have hope is because at least I heard of these guys! Matt Johnson, Kyle Wilber, Caleb McSurdy, David Arkin, Robert Brewster, Danny Coale, Bill Nagy, Sean Lissemore, Victor Bulter, Brandon Williams, James Marten, Erik Walden, Pat McQuistan, EJ Whitney... all these turd buckets I never heard of or gave a thought to us taking. ...and that's being on these forums 365 days of the year.

This year I have hope! I heard of these guys before! LMAO. What a sad song.
Hopefully Wilbur, McSurdy, Arkin, Coale improve and give us something.

That '09 draft - smh
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:14 AM    (permalink
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Hopefully Wilbur, McSurdy, Arkin, Coale improve and give us something.

That '09 draft - smh
I have hopes for Wilber. I think he can ball. The rest only have a prayer's chance in hell, imo.
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Old 04-30-2013, 08:28 AM    (permalink
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an interview with his former college coach Bret Bielema.

On whether Frederick has a nasty streak:

"Unfortunately, he has an extreme nastiness. I had to get on him a few of times. He broke a couple guys' arms and wrists by throwing them down on the ground and whacking them a little bit after the play, on our own team. ... There were a couple players this year in our league, Michigan State, Illinois, had some premier defensive tackles over the years and he took a lot of pride when he had the face-to-face competition with those guys."
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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an interview with his former college coach Bret Bielema.

On whether Frederick has a nasty streak:

"Unfortunately, he has an extreme nastiness. I had to get on him a few of times. He broke a couple guys' arms and wrists by throwing them down on the ground and whacking them a little bit after the play, on our own team. .. h. There were a couple players this year in our league, Michigan State, Illinois, had some premier defensive tackles over the years and he took a lot of pride when he had the face-to-face competition with those guys."
I heard that interview on the radio (ESPN Dallas) on the day after we drafted him and yea man... that got me pumped about us picking him. We need that kind of nastiness badly.
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:12 PM    (permalink
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I heard that interview on the radio (ESPN Dallas) on the day after we drafted him and yea man... that got me pumped about us picking him. We need that kind of nastiness badly.
On top of that he is also smart...

Frederick has a computer engineering and computer science double major. When you factor in the time commitment of the football program, he must be an ace at time management.

From Fox Sports:
When he studies in his dorm, he does so with three computers. And as a teenager, he spent much of his time taking apart electronic devices simply to see how quickly he could put them back together.

Frederick, a redshirt sophomore from Sharon, Wis., became the first true freshman in school history to start a season opener on the offensive line when he lined up at center against Northern Illinois in 2009.

Frederick said he enrolled at Wisconsin with the intention of studying aerospace engineering and designing airplanes. When he discovered the school’s program did not interest him, he instead sought out computer science and computer engineering.

He studies computer programming, user interface and web development as well as how electrons flow through wires to make decisions. Though Frederick is undecided of his career plans, he said he might like to build computer chips or work as an information technology consultant in the business world or design custom computer applications for businesses.
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Old 04-30-2013, 12:45 PM    (permalink
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Watford was not on their board per Broaddus.
Well there is Earl Watford and Larry Warford.
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