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Old 04-29-2013, 03:02 PM    (permalink
Black Bolt
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Well, both Reese and Newsome did a nice job overall, but I don't think it was anywhere near their best. First, Hankins? Did they just draft Linvell Joseph, another 320 + pounder? Whatever happended to their Nascar unit?? I like the Moore pick as a fit, but the trade up for Nassib was terrible IMO. As far as Newsome, awesome first round pick in Elam, so so 2nd round pick in Arthur Brown who doesn't fit a 3-4 ideally.

I'll take this opportunity to pimp what Reggie McKenzie was able to accomplish with the Raiders. We came in with 7 picks that included no 2nd rounder and no 5th rounder. We ended up with 10 picks which included the 10th pick of the 2nd round. CB was #1 need by most counts, we not only got the CB we were looking for in the 1st, but we were able to get that 2nd rounder and turned it into Menelik Watson who took care of a need at RT long term. Reggie was able to get likely a starting TE in Nick Kasa in the 6th. With Kasa, OLB Sio Moore, Watson and Hayden, I believe we got 4 starters as well as D-line and QB depth. And after what we saw from Rod Streator last year, wouldn't sleep on Brice Butler, a WR who has the same dimensions and performance numbers.
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:03 PM    (permalink
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Those are two notable players that have made a career being little more than two down players. Casey Hampton more so than Wilfork, but I think a DT that can shut down the run, mainly with his presence alone, is a valuable commodity. Ngata had very limited pass rush ability when he entered. If Hankins comes in and turns your run defense from a Top 25 defense to a Top 10 run defense, then is it worth it?

And just to clarify, I have no problem with the Nassib pick. I just don't put much stock into it. Firstly, I don't think he's a starter. He's a backup. So I think we're talking about backup QB in round 4. There isn't much to talk about. But if he's starting for the Giants, then it's a bad sign. He's the type of pick that you never want to see play valuable minutes.


Demontre Moore's biggest issue is that he won at the college level due to length and hustle. He has no pass rushing technique at all. And he's going to struggle to run the arc against NFL tackles. In games against Alabama and Oklahoma, when he was matched up against future NFL players, he did next to nothing. And he rarely 'beat' those guys. If he made plays, they were hustle plays on broken offenses plays. That, to me, was the most glaring tape.

But hearing that his own coaches wouldn't even give NFL coaches and GMs positive reviews of him makes his lack of technique understandable, and fairly alarming. Because poor work ethic would never cross your mind just from watching the tape (he has a really good motor). He has talent, but his physical tools were, at one point, grossly overrated. I get the feeling that a lot of fans might think they are getting Top 10 talent in the 3rd round. More like a second round talent with potential. The word 'potential' does not go well with 'poor work ethic'. Like I said, it might be a value pick, it's risky. Especially considering that they took a two down run stuffing DT in the previous round an OT in round 1 that might have to change positions at the next level. This is a risky draft. Justin Pugh has to become a quality starter somewhere on the offensive line. If he turns into a disappointment, then this draft is riding on Moore and Hankins.
This is a fair evaluation. I guess we just have to see and cross our fingers as Giants fans.

I view Pugh as a G or C. I think he has value there. And I have no problem taking a G at 19, we desperately need one and I think he can be a very good one at that.

Hankins...I just don't like it man. I want pass rushers on my line. Fwiw, I also think that Ngata is overvalued, so there's that. It's a difference of opinion on philosophy, so nobody is right or wrong here, the selection just goes against my personal philosophy.

Moore, I don't know. You bring up very valid points that counter my evaluation. I have to look at him again with your criticique in mind and reevaluate. He's an interesting guy. I don't like his character, I know that much. But he's long and strong, and he's 20. It really depends on how much our program can develop him and kick him in gear. If he can't succeed with us, he'd be a dud anywhere. We have the best program for DEs in the league, so he fell into a good situation. Hopefully for our sake he makes the most of it.

I think Moore is either gonna be a diamond in the rough that we stole, or a turd we flush down the toilet in 2 years. There's no medium for him I don't think.
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
PossibleCabbage
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Like I mentioned, I think Pugh is going to be a good Pro. His arm length does scare me because I learned from Byran Bulaga that arm length makes a difference.
Keep in mind that Bryan Bulaga's arms (33 1/2") are 1 5/8" longer than Justin Pugh's. Arms really have very little to do with Bulaga's struggles as a pro (the last season, it's because of a nagging hip injury) and arms really don't matter *that much* outside (Jake Long and Joe Thomas both have arms shorter than 33", and nobody cares.)

With Pugh, I'm honestly not that concerned about his arm length, but that he needs to add both strength and weight but his frame is close to maxed out, his hand placement is wildly inconsistent, and he tends to let guys get to his body (after which they just overwhelm him).

His feet are top notch, but he's not particularly powerful nor is he a great technician. I think he can handle speed guys on the outside, but not power guys or length guys.
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:53 AM    (permalink
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Keep in mind that Bryan Bulaga's arms (33 1/2") are 1 5/8" longer than Justin Pugh's. Arms really have very little to do with Bulaga's struggles as a pro (the last season, it's because of a nagging hip injury) and arms really don't matter *that much* outside (Jake Long and Joe Thomas both have arms shorter than 33", and nobody cares.)

With Pugh, I'm honestly not that concerned about his arm length, but that he needs to add both strength and weight but his frame is close to maxed out, his hand placement is wildly inconsistent, and he tends to let guys get to his body (after which they just overwhelm him).

His feet are top notch, but he's not particularly powerful nor is he a great technician. I think he can handle speed guys on the outside, but not power guys or length guys.
I thought Bulaga was under 33 inches. I remember a lot was made of his arm length. I believe 32 inch arms are rare to find on a quality LT. Roos, Long and Thomas would be the only three LTs, off he top of my head, that I can think of. But there could be more.

Ideally you want to see them have around 35 inch arms (ideally, speaking, but the average is probably around 34). Anything under 34 and you're going to hear some criticism. Under 33 and you're going to hear a lot. And it can show up during games.

Have you ever seen Jake Long get dropped right on his back like he was shot in the chest? It happens more frequently to him than just about any top level OT I have ever seen. Vernon Gholston did it to him in college. Jake Long was actually criticized quite a bit (not just for arm length, but for foot speed and athleticism, he was called a RT by some people). But he was actually an ideal fit for Miami.

I honestly don't remember hearing anything on Joe Thomas. I think he was so good and so athletic and so technically sound that it made people ignore his arm length, which is what it takes. You have to understand angles and be a technician to overcome it.

I also had a first round grade on Eben Britton. I don't remember how short his arms were, but I remember it garnering a ton of talk. Is he even in the league anymore?
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Tahj Boyd has the best fundamentals of any QB in this class, I think his game translates great to the NFL.

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Old 04-30-2013, 06:08 AM    (permalink
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He was considered a potential feature back. Some people debated if he or Trent Richardson were better.

The kid was legit. If he returns to that, it's a steal.
Don't mind him, if it wasn't a Seahawks pick, it wasn't that special.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:26 AM    (permalink
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I think it's worth waiting to see how these pan out. I know... i know, but certainly Oz has had some big misses the last few years, as well as his big hits. There's some great potential in this draft class he put together, but I am concerned about the potential pitfalls too.
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Old 04-30-2013, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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Also remember that the Giants had one of the worst run defenses in the NFL last year.

They are going to play at least four games every year against the read-option in their own division alone.

They needed to find a way to improve their run defense / run contain. They're not going to do that with 270lb DEs rushing up the field on every snap. The only way to consistently beat the read-option is to blow up the OLine blocking with big run-stuffing Nose Tackles.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:10 AM    (permalink
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To me, he's a tweener in all the wrong ways. He's the size of an LB and he moves like a DE (or a DT at times.) It's not just that he's not fast, it's that he plays slow (he doesn't glide, he stomps.) He'll get pressures based on tenacity, and his hands are violent, but I don't think he can straight up "beat" NFL tackles. So most of the time he's on the field he'll just tie up a single blocker and accomplish little.

His best position is, probably, to try to add 20 lbs or so and be an inside pass rusher from the nickel.

I mean, maybe I'm wrong, but he's just not a guy I like on tape.
Fair enough. From what I've seen his initial burst off the line is very good and while his closing speed isn't great, being able to win off the snap is far more important, especially for a guy with long arms and the onfield motor Moore brings to the table. But if that's not the case I can see the concern, even with our coaching staff.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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Also remember that the Giants had one of the worst run defenses in the NFL last year.

They are going to play at least four games every year against the read-option in their own division alone.

They needed to find a way to improve their run defense / run contain. They're not going to do that with 270lb DEs rushing up the field on every snap. The only way to consistently beat the read-option is to blow up the OLine blocking with big run-stuffing Nose Tackles.
That's fair. And I think it's a big reason why we took him. The value bothers me though. Just not a fan of the value.

The Georgia NT went a whole round later. And he's just as good. I'm fine with taking a NT in round 3. But round 2? That's too early.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:25 AM    (permalink
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Got to love these declarations of great drafting before players even step onto the field.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:29 AM    (permalink
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Don't mind him, if it wasn't a Seahawks pick, it wasn't that special.
Ya except for the lauding the Patton and Carradine picks I'm totally a homer.

I didn't even like the Seahawks draft lol.

And I've been down on Eric Reid forever so...
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:29 AM    (permalink
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Got to love these declarations of great drafting before players even step onto the field.
You're on the wrong website.
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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You're on the wrong website.
Really? Could have sworn this was to talk about potential prospects and our opinions. Didn't realize this was the crystal ball website where we know how everyone turns out. Thanks for the info!
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:31 PM    (permalink
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Really? Could have sworn this was to talk about potential prospects and our opinions. Didn't realize this was the crystal ball website where we know how everyone turns out. Thanks for the info!
Yes, POTENTIAL and OPINION.
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