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Old 04-30-2013, 01:09 PM    (permalink
D-Unit
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On top of that he is also smart...

Frederick has a computer engineering and computer science double major. When you factor in the time commitment of the football program, he must be an ace at time management.

From Fox Sports:
When he studies in his dorm, he does so with three computers. And as a teenager, he spent much of his time taking apart electronic devices simply to see how quickly he could put them back together.

Frederick, a redshirt sophomore from Sharon, Wis., became the first true freshman in school history to start a season opener on the offensive line when he lined up at center against Northern Illinois in 2009.

Frederick said he enrolled at Wisconsin with the intention of studying aerospace engineering and designing airplanes. When he discovered the school’s program did not interest him, he instead sought out computer science and computer engineering.

He studies computer programming, user interface and web development as well as how electrons flow through wires to make decisions. Though Frederick is undecided of his career plans, he said he might like to build computer chips or work as an information technology consultant in the business world or design custom computer applications for businesses.
So you're saying he's nasty (like reeeeally nasty), he's brilliant, he's strong, he's the main guy Wisconsin ran behind in the battle tested running league that is the Big Ten, all his coaches love him and he filled our biggest weakness on the OL? Cool!

I honestly think the guys bashing this pick will eat their words and then some.

On top of what you said, look at our division. Redskins and Philly are now 3-4 defenses. They have big ole NTs to deal with. The Giants just drafted Hankins. If we had to deal with Costa and Cook again, we would be TOAST!

The Cowboys said they had Frederick and Long with the same grade, but weren't interested in Pugh saying he was too finesse for the division. I think they hit the nail right on the head. I hear them talk about using him at RT, OG and C. Good luck using him in the interior in this division. That's all I'm saying. Happy we didn't get Pugh. Considering where Long went and him having the same grade as Frederick.... there's no such thing as a reach on OL in this year's draft. That's just made up crap. Even Pugh was not a reach and I didn't like him.

High Fives Brother!
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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So you're saying he's nasty (like reeeeally nasty), he's brilliant, he's strong, he's the main guy Wisconsin ran behind in the battle tested running league that is the Big Ten, all his coaches love him and he filled our biggest weakness on the OL? Cool!

I honestly think the guys bashing this pick will eat their words and then some.

On top of what you said, look at our division. Redskins and Philly are now 3-4 defenses. They have big ole NTs to deal with. The Giants just drafted Hankins. If we had to deal with Costa and Cook again, we would be TOAST!

The Cowboys said they had Frederick and Long with the same grade, but weren't interested in Pugh saying he was too finesse for the division. I think they hit the nail right on the head. I hear them talk about using him at RT, OG and C. Good luck using him in the interior in this division. That's all I'm saying. Happy we didn't get Pugh. Considering where Long went and him having the same grade as Frederick.... there's no such thing as a reach on OL in this year's draft. That's just made up crap. Even Pugh was not a reach and I didn't like him.

High Fives Brother!
Thats a lie. And who was it that was calling for Armstead at 31 but is now a bad pick at 47?

Quote:
We may take Terron Armstead at 31.

OG is deep guys. DEEEP. Don't sweat.
You seem to want to keep coming after me because I dont like the value of the pick and the fact we got fleeced in the trade. I dont recall ever saying Fredrick sucked or anything to that effect. In fact I said he was a good player and an upgrade. I dont believe he should have been the pick at 31 nor would I have traded down. Thats MY opinion. You guys can keep throwing out the fact the dude builds computers or plays violins or helps little girls cross the street. Doesnt change my opinion that there were better players there and we MIGHT have gotten him at 47 or another player similarly rated.
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:50 PM    (permalink
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The Pugh thing was not a lie. Now I will have to find where I read that.

I thought we might take Armstead or Watson at 31. At least I was hoping for it. I followed the talking heads too. Plus I know we brought in Armstead for a private workout so I thought there was legitimate interest there.

But when they took Frederick it was a surprise. I didn't jump off a bridge because I thought OL was OL and we drafted according to our biggest need. Didn't take me long to look into him deeper to realize what a great pick it was. I don't get why you don't see that. ...and instead want to stick to the idea that the talking heads were so right and the Cowboys were so wrong.

Even you can admit that you can't find fault in the player. To me that's copping out. You can't complain about the pick but not complain about the player. The ESPN Dallas radio guys have been classic examples of this. They harp on how bad the pick was and that the Cowboys should've taken Floyd or Reid. But when it comes to criticizing Frederick, they completely back off. It's the most irritating thing to hear.
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Old 04-30-2013, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/20...tin-pugh.html/

Quote:
Jerry Jones is aware of the criticism the Dallas Cowboys are receiving for drafting offensive lineman Travis Frederick with the 31st overall pick on Thursday.

The Cowboys owner and general manager has heard the critics say that his team could’ve possibly landed the draft’s top center with their second-round pick.

But after the draft had concluded Saturday night, Jones explained that he wasn’t willing to take the risk of Frederick not being available in the second or third round.

“I’ll gamble with the best of them, I really will,” Jones said. “And I’ll sit there and wait them out and catch him in the top of the third. But I wasn’t taking any risk here. We got a starter and we got the best center. And that’s what he’s going to be.”

Had the Cowboys not traded out of the No. 18 pick, they might have selected Syracuse offensive lineman Justin Pugh, who was drafted by the New York Giants at No. 19.

“We thought a lot of Pugh,” Jones said. “Pugh’s a different player, more finesse. Strength was an issue.”

Pugh was regarded as an offensive tackle by some teams but the Cowboys had him categorized as a guard.
Sounds to me like they're saying the right thing about Pugh as to not diss him completely, but the underlying truth is that he was too finesse and they wouldn't have taken him. *shrugs*
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:10 PM    (permalink
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http://cowboysblog.dallasnews.com/20...tin-pugh.html/



Sounds to me like they're saying the right thing about Pugh as to not diss him completely, but the underlying truth is that he was too finesse and they wouldn't have taken him. *shrugs*
Bryan Broaddus ‏@BryanBroaddus 29 Apr
“@Rangermts: @BryanBroaddus If Pugh or Long were available at 31 do you believe Cowboys still take Fredericks?” I believe they take Pugh

Bryan Broaddus ‏@BryanBroaddus 29 Apr
@SUPERNOLEVA They really liked Pugh and Long. They would have taken Cooper or Warmack too. Didn't fall right.

Im sure this will be blown off as Broddus doesnt know sh*t but there you go.
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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Problem with debating the draft is that we deal in 100% grey areas. Not a single person has all the information and if they do they certainly are not going to paint a picture that doesn't make themselves look rosy.

Jerry would know Dallas's opinion of Pugh and Long however to admit that he had them higher than Frederick could reflect a failure on the part of the team. Therefore he won't say it. If he's telling the truth you also can't tell because he could just be putting the positive spin.

Broaddus says a lot of stuff but cannot definitively have all the information correct. For every quotation that he gets right he'll have one that's right. That happens when dealing with half-truths and outright lies coming from NFL teams prior to the draft.

Winters at 47 would have been a reach. Pugh at 18 would be a mega-reach (IMHO). I honestly chuckled when the Giants took him and made a joke about the Raiders with friends. Same thing with Long. Bottom line in this draft was unless you had a top 10 pick you were going to be reaching for a lineman throughout the draft. Heck in 99% of years taking a guard top 10 meant being a laughing stock in draft circles. Taking the 2nd rated guard top 10 meant you were on the Al Davis express. How about taking the 4th rated OT at 11? Choo choo all aboard!

Most fun part of being a draftnik is to realize how wrong everyone is pre-draft. Moore was a top 5 lock. Then a poor combine dropped him to the teens/early 20s. By draft day he was a borderline 1st. Then the draft happens and he's a third rounder. You would be hard pressed to find a single draft "expert" who predicted Jordan Poyer in the 7th, Jesse Williams in the 5th, Tyler Bray undrafted, Zac Dysert in the 7th, heck there are TONS of examples. Remember the Matt Scott discussion as a potential first rounder? Or Lande championing Nassib as the #1 rated player in the entire draft?
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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Problem with debating the draft is that we deal in 100% grey areas. Not a single person has all the information and if they do they certainly are not going to paint a picture that doesn't make themselves look rosy.

Jerry would know Dallas's opinion of Pugh and Long however to admit that he had them higher than Frederick could reflect a failure on the part of the team. Therefore he won't say it. If he's telling the truth you also can't tell because he could just be putting the positive spin.

Broaddus says a lot of stuff but cannot definitively have all the information correct. For every quotation that he gets right he'll have one that's right. That happens when dealing with half-truths and outright lies coming from NFL teams prior to the draft.

Winters at 47 would have been a reach. Pugh at 18 would be a mega-reach (IMHO). I honestly chuckled when the Giants took him and made a joke about the Raiders with friends. Same thing with Long. Bottom line in this draft was unless you had a top 10 pick you were going to be reaching for a lineman throughout the draft. Heck in 99% of years taking a guard top 10 meant being a laughing stock in draft circles. Taking the 2nd rated guard top 10 meant you were on the Al Davis express. How about taking the 4th rated OT at 11? Choo choo all aboard!

Most fun part of being a draftnik is to realize how wrong everyone is pre-draft. Moore was a top 5 lock. Then a poor combine dropped him to the teens/early 20s. By draft day he was a borderline 1st. Then the draft happens and he's a third rounder. You would be hard pressed to find a single draft "expert" who predicted Jordan Poyer in the 7th, Jesse Williams in the 5th, Tyler Bray undrafted, Zac Dysert in the 7th, heck there are TONS of examples. Remember the Matt Scott discussion as a potential first rounder? Or Lande championing Nassib as the #1 rated player in the entire draft?
Ok heres my question, your at 18 and the #7 player (on YOUR board) is still there why not take him? By all accounts Floyd was #7 on our board and when we passed on him and Jerry was asked about it he said "hes not a quick twitch player, not to say he cant become that but wasnt a fit for our 4-3" Then why the F**k is he the #7 player on OUR board? Makes no sense. This is why when Jerry does something questionable in the draft he gets killed.
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:42 PM    (permalink
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I remember reading somewhere that the Cowboys only had 18 players in the draft rated as legit 1st round caliber talents.

That makes me think that at 31, they knew they would essentially be choosing among players who they graded as 2nd rounders. At that point they are all bunched up in regards to similar grades/value. So taking a guy that fills your #1 need isn't a reach.
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:46 PM    (permalink
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Ok heres my question, your at 18 and the #7 player (on YOUR board) is still there why not take him? By all accounts Floyd was #7 on our board and when we passed on him and Jerry was asked about it he said "hes not a quick twitch player, not to say he cant become that but wasnt a fit for our 4-3" Then why the F**k is he the #7 player on OUR board? Makes no sense. This is why when Jerry does something questionable in the draft he gets killed.
Because when it came down to deciding to take the #7 player or the 1st and 3rd, they decided that the latter was more attractive.

We're already 2 deep at DT. Ratliff and Hatcher will start and we have 2-3 young guys behind them in Lissemore, Bass and Crawford. At C we had Costa. The decision really wasn't that hard.

Floyd might be nice, but he wasn't an elite prospect despite being given the #7 ranking on the big board. BTW, does anybody care to look up the number of busts for DTs in Round 1? It's a lovely exercise.
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:52 PM    (permalink
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Because when it came down to deciding to take the #7 player or the 1st and 3rd, they decided that the latter was more attractive.

We're already 2 deep at DT. Ratliff and Hatcher will start and we have 2-3 young guys behind them in Lissemore, Bass and Crawford. At C we had Costa. The decision really wasn't that hard.

Floyd might be nice, but he wasn't an elite prospect despite being given the #7 ranking on the big board. BTW, does anybody care to look up the number of busts for DTs in Round 1? It's a lovely exercise.
The point is, is if thats the way you feel about him why is he #7 OVERALL on your board. Seems to me if your stacked at DT (we arent!!) and the prospect isnt elite then why have him in your top 10?
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Old 04-30-2013, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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You do realize our DTs are 32, and 31 and one of them missed 10 games and has seen his sack total decline in each of the last 5 years and the other starter has a career high of 4.5 sacks? Everybody else is unproven or Meh. We werent real good at stopping the run either. I dont see how its not a need.
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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The point is, is if thats the way you feel about him why is he #7 OVERALL on your board. Seems to me if your stacked at DT (we arent!!) and the prospect isnt elite then why have him in your top 10?
Sigh. Really? Kiffin stated he was HAPPY with our team's defensive line going into the draft. He said he wanted linebackers the most from that side of the ball.

Crawford has beefed up and will most likely see time at DT and DE. Hatcher was called the most dynamic defensive lineman we have by Kiffin. Ratliff is Ratliff. Lissemore is an up and coming player who was one of the highest scoring PFF players two years prior. Bass played out of his mind in camp and ended up forcing our hand with the 53. Brian Price was a high pick and recovering from medical conditions but has top tier talent. Brent is still a Cowboy awaiting trial.

If you are talking values and you are weighing them.

1st choice: Floyd.

Updated DT chart: Hatcher - Floyd - Ratliff - Crawford - Lissemore - Bass - Price - Brent

Updated OC chart: Costa - Cook - Killer K

Updated #3 WR chart: Harris - Coale - Beasley



2nd choice: Travis Frederick and Terrance Williams

DT: Hatcher - Ratliff - Crawford - Lissemore - Bass - Price - Brent
OC: Frederick - Costa - Cook - Killer K
WR: Williams - Harris - Coale - Beasley



Reflections? We are MUCH deeper at DT compared with OC and WR. Is replacing say Brian Price and his minimum contract on the 53 compared to Floyd worth passing on replacing Costa with Frederick and Williams at the #3 over the other options?

Not going to lie there isn't a single way to rephrase this to make me want to take Floyd whom is not a quick-twitch dynamic pass-rusher that Kiffin covets over the benefits of having stability at OC and a dynamic receiver in the mold of Dez. It doesn't hurt that Williams was regarded as a "borderline 1st" prospect.


Also I noticed you quoted SACKS of all things for a 3-4 defensive lineman. Please don't do that. Please. For both Parcells and Ryan the goal of the 3-4 lineman was to occupy blockers not rush the passer.

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Old 04-30-2013, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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Sigh. Really? Kiffin stated he was HAPPY with our team's defensive line going into the draft. He said he wanted linebackers the most from that side of the ball.

Crawford has beefed up and will most likely see time at DT and DE. Hatcher was called the most dynamic defensive lineman we have by Kiffin. Ratliff is Ratliff. Lissemore is an up and coming player who was one of the highest scoring PFF players two years prior. Bass played out of his mind in camp and ended up forcing our hand with the 53. Brian Price was a high pick and recovering from medical conditions but has top tier talent. Brent is still a Cowboy awaiting trial.

If you are talking values and you are weighing them.

1st choice: Floyd.

Updated DT chart: Hatcher - Floyd - Ratliff - Crawford - Lissemore - Bass - Price - Brent

Updated OC chart: Costa - Cook - Killer K

Updated #3 WR chart: Harris - Coale - Beasley



2nd choice: Travis Frederick and Terrance Williams

DT: Hatcher - Ratliff - Crawford - Lissemore - Bass - Price - Brent
OC: Frederick - Costa - Cook - Killer K
WR: Williams - Harris - Coale - Beasley



Reflections? We are MUCH deeper at DT compared with OC and WR. Is replacing say Brian Price and his minimum contract on the 53 compared to Floyd worth passing on replacing Costa with Frederick and Williams at the #3 over the other options?

Not going to lie there isn't a single way to rephrase this to make me want to take Floyd whom is not a quick-twitch dynamic pass-rusher that Kiffin covets over the benefits of having stability at OC and a dynamic receiver in the mold of Dez. It doesn't hurt that Williams was regarded as a "borderline 1st" prospect.


Also I noticed you quoted SACKS of all things for a 3-4 defensive lineman. Please don't do that. Please. For both Parcells and Ryan the goal of the 3-4 lineman was to occupy blockers not rush the passer.
Sigh, Really? You gave all that thought and comparisons without answering the question? IF he is happy with the Dline (same thing Ryan said, where did that get him?) and the prospect isnt elite, why is he #7 overall on OUR board? BTW how many LBs did we draft if thats what he really wanted? SMH...
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
Trogdor
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Sigh, Really? You gave all that thought and comparisons without answering the question? IF he is happy with the Dline (same thing Ryan said, where did that get him?) and the prospect isnt elite, why is he #7 overall on OUR board? BTW how many LBs did we draft if thats what he really wanted? SMH...
Sigh. Do I really need to put a "TL;DR" after my posts with the point drilled down to one sentence? I did answer your question. I just didn't put it in plain words I made it with a point.

Here:

They valued 31+74 more than 18. Despite Floyd being the 7th best player on their board they valued the potentially available lineman at 18 PLUS the 74th pick more than taking a DT even if he's rated #7.

As it ended: Frederick + Williams > Floyd



TL;DR: Frederick + Williams > Floyd
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:20 PM    (permalink
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Also I noticed you quoted SACKS of all things for a 3-4 defensive lineman. Please don't do that. Please. For both Parcells and Ryan the goal of the 3-4 lineman was to occupy blockers not rush the passer.[/quote]

Where does JJ watt play again? Oh yeah hes another guy we passed on for an O-linemen. Hmmmm DPOY or an average (so far) LT?

Seems like another great move now doesnt it?
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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You do realize our DTs are 32, and 31 and one of them missed 10 games and has seen his sack total decline in each of the last 5 years and the other starter has a career high of 4.5 sacks? Everybody else is unproven or Meh. We werent real good at stopping the run either. I dont see how its not a need.
Did you see Floyd's sack numbers? ...and he was a 4-3 DT not a 3-4 DT.

Needs? We have a lot of em. So we gotta rank 'em. DT wasn't above interior OL as far as needs go.

I see the need for DT bigger next year than this year. 31 and 32 years old..? Ratliff and Hatcher can play another year just fine. In fact, Ratliff's low mileage from last season might make him even better for next season.

If we take a DT this year, he's rotational.

Frederick is a starter ... at a bigger need. Easy choice.
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:23 PM    (permalink
Trogdor
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Pocket is trolling. I'm done. If he thinks 3-4 lineman under Parcells and Ryan were primary pass-rushers there is ZERO point of continuing to attempt intelligent banter.

Enjoy your evening gentlemen! :P
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Sigh. Do I really need to put a "TL;DR" after my posts with the point drilled down to one sentence? I did answer your question. I just didn't put it in plain words I made it with a point.

Here:

They valued 31+74 more than 18. Despite Floyd being the 7th best player on their board they valued the potentially available lineman at 18 PLUS the 74th pick more than taking a DT even if he's rated #7.

As it ended: Frederick + Williams > Floyd



TL;DR: Frederick + Williams > Floyd
Ok so we put non elite players that dont fit a need into our top 10 in the hopes of trading down. Now Ive got it
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:27 PM    (permalink
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Did you see Floyd's sack numbers? ...and he was a 4-3 DT not a 3-4 DT.

Needs? We have a lot of em. So we gotta rank 'em. DT wasn't above interior OL as far as needs go.

I see the need for DT bigger next year than this year. 31 and 32 years old..? Ratliff and Hatcher can play another year just fine. In fact, Ratliff's low mileage from last season might make him even better for next season.

If we take a DT this year, he's rotational.

Frederick is a starter ... at a bigger need. Easy choice.
I agree with this, I dont agree with our rankings if thats not a guy we really want. Seems to me hed be ranked as a 2nd rounder if hes not elite and doesnt fit our needs. Am I off base in thinking this?
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Where does JJ watt play again? Oh yeah hes another guy we passed on for an O-linemen. Hmmmm DPOY or an average (so far) LT?

Seems like another great move now doesnt it?
I don't even want to imagine how ugly our offense would be like if we didn't have a LT. That's some scary ****.

But yes, if teams had the ability to see into the future, the draft would be great wouldn't it?

It's so great to look back at all the negatives and think the Cowboys always do a terrible job in the draft... . But let's just remember that the Cowboys also have some great hits on this team too. Tony Romo, Miles Austin, Dez Bryant, Jason Witten, Demarco Murray, Demarcus Ware, Anthony Spencer, Sean Lee, Bruce Carter, Jay Ratliff, Jason Hatcher, Mo Claiborne, Orlando Scandrick...

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Old 04-30-2013, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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I agree with this, I dont agree with our rankings if thats not a guy we really want. Seems to me hed be ranked as a 2nd rounder if hes not elite and doesnt fit our needs. Am I off base in thinking this?
No, I think the board should factor in needs and I think it does.

The bottom line is that the Cowboys thought getting the 1st and 3rd was better than taking the 7th guy on their board.

If we didn't have a trade down opportunity, I don't think Frederick would've been taken at 18. It probably would've been Floyd.
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:33 PM    (permalink
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Let's talk about something else already....

New topic.... Escobar!!!! Is he more than a sexy face???
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:39 PM    (permalink
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Where is Ware playing again, LDE or RDE?
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:42 PM    (permalink
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Let's talk about something else already....

New topic.... Escobar!!!! Is he more than a sexy face???
I'll return for that! :) Yes. He'll be utilized like the younger Witten. Flexed out at times other times standing on the line and running seams.

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Where is Ware playing again, LDE or RDE?
WDE so RDE. If Kiffin remains true to his alignments he'll play a TON either on or beyond the tackles outside shoulder. Meaning unless you put a TE on him Ware is going to get a lot of 1v1s with room to move inside or bend around the outside.

One of the main reasons I'm excited is where we look to place him.
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:44 PM    (permalink
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Alright Ill stop "trolling" Ive been a fan of the Dallas Cowboys since 1975 and will always be a fan. Its clear that if its not all rosey and if you have a negative opinion on different things it doesnt want to be seen in here. After the last 17 years of watching 128-128 football under the same leadership, its gotten hard for me to give Jerry the benifit of the doubt. Sorry Ive ruined some of your guys day and I dont want to get into Bob territory where people dont want to come in here because of me. Ill try to bite my tongue and be a bit more pleasant.
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