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Old 04-30-2013, 10:23 PM    (permalink
dannyz
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Originally Posted by bigbuc View Post
Its all about player grades. Would any of you take Clowney over Luck? I hope not. If the QB that's in the draft with Clowney grades out as a top 2-3 pick then you take them.

It's the QB's that are the 5th to 8th best players that get pushed up to the number one spot because they're QB's
I don't like the thought that just because you need a QB you have to take one high no matter what. Look at the Jaguars/Titans/Vikings they are stuck with bad QB's because they needed one and reached for a guy that was not that good.

Let's just say for a scenario that Bridgewater kinda has a down year and is ranked in the 15 to 20 range and has some questions about his game, a team picking first needs a QB do they take the best player or the 20th best player and pass on Clowney for an average QB?

If you were starting a team would you take a truly dominant pass rusher like Watt/Ware or a average QB like Cutler/Schaub?

All I am trying to say is a team shouldn't take a lower level QB just because they need one.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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So, you would take a guy who would be a top 10 quarterback at best over a guy who opposing offensive coordinators would have to gameplan around?

Tony Romo had the 10th highest quarterback rating. You're telling me you'd rather have him then J.J. Watt?
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:34 PM    (permalink
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I would go even further and say top 3-4 quarterback. It would have to be somebody in the Rodgers, Brady, Brees, or Peyton Manning category.
Really bro... When you draft a guy you don't know what he will turn out to be.

Also If I didn't have a QB I would want Romo over JJ
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:39 PM    (permalink
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It's funny that everyone talks about Romo in a bad way. If this guy wins 1 super bowl he's going to go to the HOF with his numbers.
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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It'll be pretty obvious who is more valuable when Matt Ryan gets paid...
You were doing well til you dropped this ******** nugget haha
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Old 04-30-2013, 11:55 PM    (permalink
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Clowney is a monster. He's grendel manifest. He crawled out of the icy deep, pulled a jersey over his head and began killing QBs.

But I'm still taking Bridgewater first if he's got a top 5 grade.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:43 AM    (permalink
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Peppers took Jake ****ing Delhomme to the Super Bowl.

Ryan has one playoff win with the Falcons falling over backwards to put weapons around him

You take Clowney over him a million times over. You're picking in the top 10 the next season? Oh no, you can just take Matt Ryan then! Then you have Clowney AND Matt Ryan. What a disaster.

Bridgewater is the only competition for #1 overall and he would have to go absolutely nuclear to be worth it.

I'm sure some dumb team like the Jags will reach for a QB over him but that's why they're a dumb team like the Jags. Remember when they had to take Blaine Gabbert because he was a QB?

Look at the successful teams of the past 10 years and where they got their QB

Pats - 6th round
Ravens - Late 1st
Steelers - Mid 1st
Packers - Late 1st
Saints - Free agency
Giants - 1st overall (trade)

Yep, taking a QB first overall works every time! At least every time he's named "Manning"
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:47 AM    (permalink
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Going back to 2008 draft

2008 NFL Draft- Matt Ryan or Jadeveon Clowney
2009 NFl draft- Matthew Stafford or Jadeveon Clowney
2010 NFl Draft- Sam Bradford or Jadeveon Clowney
2011 NFL Draft- Cam Newton or Jadeveon Clowney
2012 NFL Draft-Andrew Luck or Jadeveon Clowney

Which player are you taking first overall in each one of these drafts?
To be honest, I probably would have taken Clowney over Newton and Ryan in their drafts (Ryan went #3 overall). Ryan and Newton both had lots of questions about their ability to be franchise QBs. I might think about Stafford too. But probably not.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:53 AM    (permalink
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Taking a QB first overall immediately makes you a contender:

Playoffs in 2012?

Colts - with a negative point differential, yes
Panthers - nope
Rams - nope
Lions - nope
Raiders - nope
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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Remember that one time the Raiders traded up into the 1st round and then drafted Fabian Washington one pick before Aaron Rodgers was selected? Because they had Kerry Collins?
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Old 05-01-2013, 01:09 AM    (permalink
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Remember that one time the Raiders traded up into the 1st round and then drafted Fabian Washington one pick before Aaron Rodgers was selected? Because they had Kerry Collins?


For real though, I still don't understand that trade.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:53 AM    (permalink
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I don't like the thought that just because you need a QB you have to take one high no matter what. Look at the Jaguars/Titans/Vikings they are stuck with bad QB's because they needed one and reached for a guy that was not that good.

Let's just say for a scenario that Bridgewater kinda has a down year and is ranked in the 15 to 20 range and has some questions about his game, a team picking first needs a QB do they take the best player or the 20th best player and pass on Clowney for an average QB?

If you were starting a team would you take a truly dominant pass rusher like Watt/Ware or a average QB like Cutler/Schaub?

All I am trying to say is a team shouldn't take a lower level QB just because they need one.
The Vikings aren't stuck with a bad QB. Ponder is a lot better than people on here think. Peterson's production dropped in half when Ponder got hurt. If Bridgewater is a 15-20 prospect, I would try to trade back just a bit, and get him at three or four. But ifi don't get any bites, I'm taking Bridgewater.

I would take Cutler over any pass rusher currently in the NFL. Watt, JPP, Von Miller, all of them. There is no question Cutler is more valuable. Look at 2011. The Bears were the hottest team in the NFL outside of Green Bay. Cutler gets hurt and they can't beat the Broncos, Chiefs, or Seahawks. They went from a top seven team to the worst offense I have ever seen. It happened last year too even though they had a better backup.
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Old 05-01-2013, 09:28 AM    (permalink
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Whaaat?

If Bridgewater is on Matt Ryan's level, you take him.. Look at what Matt Ryan has become. He's a franchise QB and the Falcons are perennial playoff contenders because of that. You pick Clowney and he becomes Julius Peppers, you're gonna be picking in the top 10 again until you find yourself a franchise QB.
I agree although I don't think there are any top 5 QB's in next year's draft.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:12 AM    (permalink
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The next Lawrence Taylor.

We haven't seen a freak like this since LT.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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I would take Cutler over any pass rusher currently in the NFL. Watt, JPP, Von Miller, all of them. There is no question Cutler is more valuable. Look at 2011. The Bears were the hottest team in the NFL outside of Green Bay. Cutler gets hurt and they can't beat the Broncos, Chiefs, or Seahawks. They went from a top seven team to the worst offense I have ever seen. It happened last year too even though they had a better backup.
Wait, wait, wait.
You would take an average/above-average QB like Cutler who is inconsistent as you can get, over two freakish defensive talents in Miller and Watt?

You're basically telling me that if the Bears could choose to resign Cutler or sign JJ Watt/Von Miller, they would take Cutler over one of those.

You're also saying Matt Schaub means more to his team than JJ Watt.

You're also saying its more important to take a risk on a QB rather than take the best prospect, by far, in the draft.

You don't win by drafting for need, you win by drafting the best talent available that fits your team. Look what happened with the Raiders as a prime example. Passed on Calvin Johnson and Adrian Peterson to draft the turd Jamarcus Russell, because I guess you have to take QB #1.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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Wait, wait, wait.
You would take an average/above-average QB like Cutler who is inconsistent as you can get, over two freakish defensive talents in Miller and Watt?

You're basically telling me that if the Bears could choose to resign Cutler or sign JJ Watt/Von Miller, they would take Cutler over one of those.

You're also saying Matt Schaub means more to his team than JJ Watt.

You're also saying its more important to take a risk on a QB rather than take the best prospect, by far, in the draft.

You don't win by drafting for need, you win by drafting the best talent available that fits your team. Look what happened with the Raiders as a prime example. Passed on Calvin Johnson and Adrian Peterson to draft the turd Jamarcus Russell, because I guess you have to take QB #1.
That's absolutely what I'm saying. The Bears have three Hall of Fame defenders, two of which are still playing at a high level. They also had two corners playing as well as any other corners in the league. Cutler gets hurt and what happens? The team is an absolute embarrassment. So yes, I would take a quality quarterback over an elite pass rusher because I've seen what happens when you don't have a good QB.

Yes, it is more important to take a risk on a QB than take Clowney. Jacksonville sticking with Gabbert or Cleveland sticking with Weeden is just telling your fan base you are okay with drafting in the top 10 for another year. But what if the 2015 QB class sucks? Or what if Clowney is good enough to get you 6 wins instead of 3? You pick 8th and the top-QBs are all gone? You going to reach for another Gabbert? Or wait until 2016 and hope you can get one then? If Bridgewater or whoever else is a top-10 type prospect, grab him and never look back.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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"You have to have a chucker!" - Ron Wolf.

I'd rather have the NFLs 10th best QB than the best DE.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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I won't call Clowney the next Lawrence Taylor because players on that level teams or fans just don't see coming until they actually arrive. He could be, but again that's something you have to see IMO and can't predict.

JJ Watt/Ed Reed/Ray Lewis....no one ever thought they would be as good as they are.

That said, it would be really hard for me to pass on Clowney as of right now unless I was in love with an available QB prospect.

There's no way I would have taken pro prospect Matt Ryan coming out of BC over Clowney right now. Looking back there's a good chance that would have been the wrong decision on my part, unless Clowney is the type of player who can elevate the play of an entire defense by himself.

The Raiders blew the Jamarcus Russell pick because of poor scouting. From a talent perspective he was the right pick at 1/1. From the neck up Jamarcus Russell never should have been drafted.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:20 AM    (permalink
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JaMarcus wasn't the right pick from a talent perspective. Calvin was exactly like Clowney in this draft, a once in a decade type talent at his position.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:34 AM    (permalink
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JaMarcus wasn't the right pick from a talent perspective. Calvin was exactly like Clowney in this draft, a once in a decade type talent at his position.
Jamarcus Russell from a physical talent perspective was one the best QB prospects in a generation. No throw he couldn't make, was mobile and the size of a tank. His problem is that being a successful NFL QB is more mental than it is physical ability.

If a WR and QB are roughly equal prospects from a talent perspective, you take the QB.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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You don't win by drafting for need, you win by drafting the best talent available that fits your team. Look what happened with the Raiders as a prime example. Passed on Calvin Johnson and Adrian Peterson to draft the turd Jamarcus Russell, because I guess you have to take QB #1.
Except this is a terrible example because Russell was an incredible prospect and physically did things most QB's would dream of doing. Hindsight is nice, but he was off the charts physically. He sucked because he didn't care or try one bit, not because he didn't have the tools to succeed. Guys like Brady Quinn & Clausen, just weren't good enough, JR really had no desire to even play football from day one after he got his 30+ million and he certainly didn't have any sort of development.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:44 AM    (permalink
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Not to mention that the Dolphins are still suffering to this day for taking the higher rated Jake Long over Matt Ryan.

I think qb is the one position where you make an exception, bc they impact the game so much more than any other position and it's not even close.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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Except this is a terrible example because Russell was an incredible prospect and physically did things most QB's would dream of doing. Hindsight is nice, but he was off the charts physically. He sucked because he didn't care or try one bit, not because he didn't have the tools to succeed. Guys like Brady Quinn & Clausen, just weren't good enough, JR really had no desire to even play football from day one after he got his 30+ million and he certainly didn't have any sort of development.
Part of being a prospect is having the right mental makeup. JaMarcus Russell was known to be lazy.
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Old 05-01-2013, 12:12 PM    (permalink
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Russell could make all the throws, but I never liked his foot quickness. I'm pretty sure there are some old posts where I said as much at the time. Foot quickness is a big thing for me when I'm projecting QBs.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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Not to mention that the Dolphins are still suffering to this day for taking the higher rated Jake Long over Matt Ryan.

I think qb is the one position where you make an exception, bc they impact the game so much more than any other position and it's not even close.
Agreed. It comes down to Scott's mantra (which is a repeated version of an NFL idiom): If you don't have a franchise QB, you don't pass on a potential franchise QB in the draft."
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