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Old 05-01-2013, 09:36 AM    (permalink
NY+Giants=NYG
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With the quick drops we faced the same thing. The problem with the Giants last year from what I noticed (just an outsiders opinion) is that you didn't have the coverage protection like you used to in the past. In the past, you had really good secondary coverage, but somehow the wheels came off for you guys last season. Webster looked like the old Terrence Newman. I can't ever say your LBs were good coverage guys but I don't know about that as well as you might, so I might be wrong there.

I get the concern about rotating bodies at DE and I don't think we're as deep as you guys there. But I do have more confidence in dropping our LBs in coverage and our corners holding their own. My concern still worries about S.

Oh and if health screws up again, I'd expect another 8-8 season because our depth is not the greatest except maybe CB.
It's a different thing specifically movement of Ware. Wasn't he moved around as a OLB? You had wait long for him to get set because you guys would move him around? That's going to be hard to do as a DE. It's not like you see a RE all of a sudden switch with the LE.

We dealt with this a lot and when this happens in a 43 system it negates everyone. It's very frustrating to watch actually. Because no one is effective.

Well Fewell's scheme for the back end is god awful! So I expect more of that if the guys up front can't get pressure. Plus, Fewell is allergic to blitzing so much he invented the amazing 3 man rush! We have all these pass rushers, but hey, let's rush 3 and drop everyone else back and still give up home run balls.

I think out of all the teams in our division it's your defense I am more interested in seeing. This includes Bob coming back from injury and if they run option early on. This includes the eagles and both sides of the ball. So I think it intrigues me to see how your defense works. If that change takes a while or fails, I think that's a stupid thing Jones did.

Regarding depth, is Spencer going to be any good as a 43 DE? Does depth worry you right now?

Is there is one issue or area of concern that's worrisome, what do you think that is?

For us it's Fewell! Secondary and his scheme is problematic, and I have zero faith in him and that side of the ball, specifically the secondary.

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Old 05-01-2013, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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It's a different thing specifically movement of Ware. Wasn't he moved around as a OLB? You had wait long for him to get set because you guys would move him around? That's going to be hard to do as a DE. It's not like you see a RE all of a sudden switch with the LE.

We dealt with this a lot and when this happens in a 43 system it negates everyone. It's very frustrating to watch actually. Because no one is effective.

Well Fewell's scheme for the back end is god awful! So I expect more of that if the guys up front can't get pressure. Plus, Fewell is allergic to blitzing so much he invented the amazing 3 man rush! We have all these pass rushers, but hey, let's rush 3 and drop everyone else back and still give up home run balls.

I think out of all the teams in our division it's your defense I am more interested in seeing. This includes Bob coming back from injury and if they run option early on. This includes the eagles and both sides of the ball. So I think it intrigues me to see how your defense works. If that change takes a while or fails, I think that's a stupid thing Jones did.

Regarding depth, is Spencer going to be any good as a 43 DE? Does depth worry you right now?

Is there is one issue or area of concern that's worrisome, what do you think that is?

For us it's Fewell! Secondary and his scheme is problematic, and I have zero faith in him and that side of the ball, specifically the secondary.

They believe the personnel can adapt, even thrive in a 43. I have no concerns about the LBs but depth along the Dline may be an issue.

Again, that would be the main area of focus, I believe Ware and Spencer will handle the transition well but we don't have much behind them.

The other issue is the safety position, we have church(who I like, but only started a few games) coming back from injury and the other spot up for grabs, so there's an uncertainty there.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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You can move pass rushers around in an even front just as easily as an odd front.

It's all about stretching the OL horizontally and creating space for pass rushers to attack.

Ware will be fine.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:48 AM    (permalink
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You can move pass rushers around in an even front just as easily as an odd front.

It's all about stretching the OL horizontally and creating space for pass rushers to attack.

Ware will be fine.
I agree, line stunts are line stunts regardless of the alignment, it's about creating mismatches and that doesn't change much.
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Old 05-01-2013, 10:57 AM    (permalink
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You can move pass rushers around in an even front just as easily as an odd front.

It's all about stretching the OL horizontally and creating space for pass rushers to attack.

Ware will be fine.


We will see I have my doubts.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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I want to see how well he does. I hope he is a flop and the system change was a poor decision, as a rival fan, but I wonder if DW can be as effective in a 43 than in a 34. I don't see him ranking up as many sacks with his hand in the dirt. I'd be impressed and very surprised year 1, he puts up 14 plus sacks.
The thing is that Ware already played with his hand in the dirt on virtually every passing situation. He's proven he can get to the quarterback from anywhere on the field. Even injured last year he still found ways to get to the QB. Not every play but a few times a game with a bum shoulder. It doesn't matter where he lines up he is going to get pressure. He is a top 10 NFL defender and has shown no signs of slowing down. Dallas has run a ton of nickel his whole career...no one has ever had concerns about Ware generating pressure. It's why he is spoken of as one of the top rushers in the game. The biggest thing that we GAIN from having him as a down rusher all game is that he can't be neutralized on the edge like he was playing in the 3-4. He'll have backside help now from Carter and will just need to keep contain. Ware has never had a problem defending the run...but when schemed against like the Redskins did last year at the end of the year...you could see there was nothing to do. They weren't attacking him they were attacking his responsibilities. Saw the same thing happen to JJ Watt in his last year at Wisconsin in the bowl game...the other team just chose not to block him and instead attack his responsibilities to keep him in check. Moving to the 4 man front only helps ware in this aspect.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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The point is, is if thats the way you feel about him why is he #7 OVERALL on your board. Seems to me if your stacked at DT (we arent!!) and the prospect isnt elite then why have him in your top 10?
Not to bring back the dead horse but I don't think you ever got the answer to this question you were looking for. I really think that the #7 overall grade in this class shows how weak it was. Unless we had a shot at one of the top guys who fell...the talent drop between the #7 player on the board and the #22 player on the board wasn't as big as it looks on paper.

One other thing to touch on. I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks it's funny that we drafted 3 players in the first 3 rounds that were all graded in the 20s. That is likely because dallas doesn't grade players that won't fit their scheme. So even though Jerry is up there saying they drafted 3 players that were close to each other on the draft board....that doesn't mean that they were that close on anyone elses board. Just in Dallas.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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Not to bring back the dead horse but I don't think you ever got the answer to this question you were looking for. I really think that the #7 overall grade in this class shows how weak it was. Unless we had a shot at one of the top guys who fell...the talent drop between the #7 player on the board and the #22 player on the board wasn't as big as it looks on paper.

One other thing to touch on. I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks it's funny that we drafted 3 players in the first 3 rounds that were all graded in the 20s. That is likely because dallas doesn't grade players that won't fit their scheme. So even though Jerry is up there saying they drafted 3 players that were close to each other on the draft board....that doesn't mean that they were that close on anyone elses board. Just in Dallas.
That makes a lot of sense actually.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:30 PM    (permalink
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The thing is that Ware already played with his hand in the dirt on virtually every passing situation. He's proven he can get to the quarterback from anywhere on the field. Even injured last year he still found ways to get to the QB. Not every play but a few times a game with a bum shoulder. It doesn't matter where he lines up he is going to get pressure. He is a top 10 NFL defender and has shown no signs of slowing down. Dallas has run a ton of nickel his whole career...no one has ever had concerns about Ware generating pressure. It's why he is spoken of as one of the top rushers in the game. The biggest thing that we GAIN from having him as a down rusher all game is that he can't be neutralized on the edge like he was playing in the 3-4. He'll have backside help now from Carter and will just need to keep contain. Ware has never had a problem defending the run...but when schemed against like the Redskins did last year at the end of the year...you could see there was nothing to do. They weren't attacking him they were attacking his responsibilities. Saw the same thing happen to JJ Watt in his last year at Wisconsin in the bowl game...the other team just chose not to block him and instead attack his responsibilities to keep him in check. Moving to the 4 man front only helps ware in this aspect.
That's what I want to see. I have my reservations on if he can be good in a 43. From what you guys say, you guys seem confident. I want to see how he will do in this MK system.

If he is that good then he won't have a problem being productive. To me, he is the only concern on your defense. I would hope he can be neutralized like other 43 DEs can.

At age 30, if he can mix it up with his hands in the dirt with a LT, TE and a RB check releasing on his side, in a whole new system, the kudos to him. I will have even more respect for him.

I just want to see how he can do. Outside of him, there really is no depth either. I would love to run opposite of Ware, and use quick game concepts to just keep his production under control.

I am curious to see if MK can be creative at his age put Ware in a place to succeed.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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The thing is that Ware already played with his hand in the dirt on virtually every passing situation. He's proven he can get to the quarterback from anywhere on the field. Even injured last year he still found ways to get to the QB. Not every play but a few times a game with a bum shoulder. It doesn't matter where he lines up he is going to get pressure. He is a top 10 NFL defender and has shown no signs of slowing down. Dallas has run a ton of nickel his whole career...no one has ever had concerns about Ware generating pressure. It's why he is spoken of as one of the top rushers in the game. The biggest thing that we GAIN from having him as a down rusher all game is that he can't be neutralized on the edge like he was playing in the 3-4. He'll have backside help now from Carter and will just need to keep contain. Ware has never had a problem defending the run...but when schemed against like the Redskins did last year at the end of the year...you could see there was nothing to do. They weren't attacking him they were attacking his responsibilities. Saw the same thing happen to JJ Watt in his last year at Wisconsin in the bowl game...the other team just chose not to block him and instead attack his responsibilities to keep him in check. Moving to the 4 man front only helps ware in this aspect.
Bingo. In the game it might have looked like Ware was getting beat and couldn't react to the ball, but the fact is that his job against Read Option is to go at the RB every single time. It's the job the the LB to cover the QB. Safety could also drop down in the box, but I'm sure RG3 did a good job to keep them on their heels with his ability to flick that ball downfield.

Our problem was that we simply were too dead beat at LB with Carter and Lee out. Ware would take care of his assignment on the RB, but when he saw RG3 take off, he would often already be out of position to make a play. On the field it made him look like he wasn't diagnosing the play correctly, but actually he was playing assignment football and did his best to react to the play even if he was out of position.
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Old 05-01-2013, 03:38 PM    (permalink
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That's what I want to see. I have my reservations on if he can be good in a 43. From what you guys say, you guys seem confident. I want to see how he will do in this MK system.

If he is that good then he won't have a problem being productive. To me, he is the only concern on your defense. I would hope he can be neutralized like other 43 DEs can.

At age 30, if he can mix it up with his hands in the dirt with a LT, TE and a RB check releasing on his side, in a whole new system, the kudos to him. I will have even more respect for him.

I just want to see how he can do. Outside of him, there really is no depth either. I would love to run opposite of Ware, and use quick game concepts to just keep his production under control.

I am curious to see if MK can be creative at his age put Ware in a place to succeed.
Speaking of depth at DE, I had been talking about the value of Damontre Moore as he kept falling in the draft... but I didn't know where he would fit in our 4-3 D. So when the Giants drafted him, I was like ... jeez... I guess some teams saw him as a fit in the 4-3... maybe we should've rolled the dice.

To make matters worse, the Giants took him right after we took Wilcox (who I'm not the biggest fan on).
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:01 PM    (permalink
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Not to bring back the dead horse but I don't think you ever got the answer to this question you were looking for. I really think that the #7 overall grade in this class shows how weak it was. Unless we had a shot at one of the top guys who fell...the talent drop between the #7 player on the board and the #22 player on the board wasn't as big as it looks on paper.

One other thing to touch on. I'm sure I'm not the only person who thinks it's funny that we drafted 3 players in the first 3 rounds that were all graded in the 20s. That is likely because dallas doesn't grade players that won't fit their scheme. So even though Jerry is up there saying they drafted 3 players that were close to each other on the draft board....that doesn't mean that they were that close on anyone elses board. Just in Dallas.
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If we were still in the 3-4, we would’ve liked him as a nose (tackle). But now that we’ve transitioned back to a 4-3, he really doesn’t fit what we’re looking for. – Tom Ciskowski
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Mike Fisher said there was more than one reason why Floyd appeared to be the right pick. According to his sources, he claims Floyd was the seventh-ranked player overall on Dallas board, he was the top ranked remaining prospect , and one of just a few still there with a first round grade
Your right, nobody ever answered why he was #7 on our board if he doesnt fit our scheme and hes not an elite player as others on here are saying. I wasnt asking about the trade or was 31 and 74 better than 18, I was asking why we had him rated at #7 if hes not a fit.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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Speaking of depth at DE, I had been talking about the value of Damontre Moore as he kept falling in the draft... but I didn't know where he would fit in our 4-3 D. So when the Giants drafted him, I was like ... jeez... I guess some teams saw him as a fit in the 4-3... maybe we should've rolled the dice.

To make matters worse, the Giants took him right after we took Wilcox (who I'm not the biggest fan on).
I agree, I was thinking maybe Okafor on day 3.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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Your right, nobody ever answered why he was #7 on our board if he doesnt fit our scheme and hes not an elite player as others on here are saying. I wasnt asking about the trade or was 31 and 74 better than 18, I was asking why we had him rated at #7 if hes not a fit.
You're not gonna eliminate players who have a 1st round grade from your board. You might do that among 2nd round guys and beyond, but you don't eliminate all of them totally.

ie. If this was a draft that had a QB like Luck or RG3, I think they would be on our board even after we gave Romo that extension. You don't take 1st round players off the board even if they don't fit a need.

But thule also brought up a point... maybe the difference between 7 and 18 (or whatever) wasn't as great as it looks like on paper.

ie.
Player - Grade
1. Cooper - 10
2. Warmack - 10
3. Austin - 10
4. Jordan - 9
5. Richardson - 9
6. Star - 8
7. Floyd - 7
8. Eifert - 7
9. Vacaro - 7
10. Fluker -7
11. Ansah - 7
12. Werner - 7
13. Jones - 7
14. Mingo - 6
15. Reid - 6
16. Sly - 6
17. Rhodes - 6
18. Patterson - 6

This is just an example, but it shows the idea that the difference in grade between 7 and 18 is only 1. Teams often have players with the same grade. Cowboys said they had Long and Frederick at the same grade.

You also see how Floyd is ranked #7, but a lot of names are not on that list. All of the OTs, no Milliner, Hayden... so it's also about players that fit their needs.... like thule said.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:28 PM    (permalink
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Speaking of depth at DE, I had been talking about the value of Damontre Moore as he kept falling in the draft... but I didn't know where he would fit in our 4-3 D. So when the Giants drafted him, I was like ... jeez... I guess some teams saw him as a fit in the 4-3... maybe we should've rolled the dice.

To make matters worse, the Giants took him right after we took Wilcox (who I'm not the biggest fan on).
Well, I am curious to see how he will do. Supposedly, he is immature. He was listed at 250 but people said he gained 10 lbs. So I think he needs to get bigger, and stronger. 19 reps is not good enough. I think a NFL training program should help.

I saw him on game changers for the NFL network with Mooch. Sapp seemed to like the kid and said he had talent. So I am interested in if he can progress. We have a lot of DEs on our roster though. Depth is vital in a 43 system.

I hope for your sake your DEs can stay healthy. If that goes then that will be an issue. How is Spencer anyways at DE? Is he even a good player? I never really pay attention to him because I am always looking for Ware and now lee.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:33 PM    (permalink
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Well, I am curious to see how he will do. Supposedly, he is immature. He was listed at 250 but people said he gained 10 lbs. So I think he needs to get bigger, and stronger. 19 reps is not good enough. I think a NFL training program should help.

I saw him on game changers for the NFL network with Mooch. Sapp seemed to like the kid and said he had talent. So I am interested in if he can progress. We have a lot of DEs on our roster though. Depth is vital in a 43 system.

I hope for your sake your DEs can stay healthy. If that goes then that will be an issue. How is Spencer anyways at DE? Is he even a good player? I never really pay attention to him because I am always looking for Ware and now lee.
Spencer and Ware will be fine. We just don't know if we will have any depth.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:35 PM    (permalink
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What's Spencer do in a 34 that made him an asset? What will be his potential strength as a 43 DE? I don't really watch him so don't know what makes him good.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:35 PM    (permalink
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You're not gonna eliminate players who have a 1st round grade from your board. You might do that among 2nd round guys and beyond, but you don't eliminate all of them totally.

ie. If this was a draft that had a QB like Luck or RG3, I think they would be on our board even after we gave Romo that extension. You don't take 1st round players off the board even if they don't fit a need.

But thule also brought up a point... maybe the difference between 7 and 18 (or whatever) wasn't as great as it looks like on paper.

ie.
Player - Grade
1. Cooper - 10
2. Warmack - 10
3. Austin - 10
4. Jordan - 9
5. Richardson - 9
6. Star - 8
7. Floyd - 7
8. Eifert - 7
9. Vacaro - 7
10. Fluker -7
11. Ansah - 7
12. Werner - 7
13. Jones - 7
14. Mingo - 6
15. Reid - 6
16. Sly - 6
17. Rhodes - 6
18. Patterson - 6

This is just an example, but it shows the idea that the difference in grade between 7 and 18 is only 1. Teams often have players with the same grade. Cowboys said they had Long and Frederick at the same grade.

You also see how Floyd is ranked #7, but a lot of names are not on that list. All of the OTs, no Milliner, Hayden... so it's also about players that fit their needs.... like thule said.

If we were still in the 3-4, we would’ve liked him as a nose (tackle). But now that we’ve transitioned back to a 4-3, he really doesn’t fit what we’re looking for. – Tom Ciskowski

LOL IDK, I think JJ is getting a pass on this whole deal dispite his track record. I get being a hopeful fan but it sure doesnt add up for me. Just my opinion.
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:40 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
You're not gonna eliminate players who have a 1st round grade from your board. You might do that among 2nd round guys and beyond, but you don't eliminate all of them totally.

ie. If this was a draft that had a QB like Luck or RG3, I think they would be on our board even after we gave Romo that extension. You don't take 1st round players off the board even if they don't fit a need.

But thule also brought up a point... maybe the difference between 7 and 18 (or whatever) wasn't as great as it looks like on paper.

ie.
Player - Grade
1. Cooper - 10
2. Warmack - 10
3. Austin - 10
4. Jordan - 9
5. Richardson - 9
6. Star - 8
7. Floyd - 7
8. Eifert - 7
9. Vacaro - 7
10. Fluker -7
11. Ansah - 7
12. Werner - 7
13. Jones - 7
14. Mingo - 6
15. Reid - 6
16. Sly - 6
17. Rhodes - 6
18. Patterson - 6

This is just an example, but it shows the idea that the difference in grade between 7 and 18 is only 1. Teams often have players with the same grade. Cowboys said they had Long and Frederick at the same grade.

You also see how Floyd is ranked #7, but a lot of names are not on that list. All of the OTs, no Milliner, Hayden... so it's also about players that fit their needs.... like thule said.
HUH? I guess Im just stupid or something lol
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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If we were still in the 3-4, we would’ve liked him as a nose (tackle). But now that we’ve transitioned back to a 4-3, he really doesn’t fit what we’re looking for. – Tom Ciskowski

LOL IDK, I think JJ is getting a pass on this whole deal dispite his track record. I get being a hopeful fan but it sure doesnt add up for me. Just my opinion.
It's because he had a 1st round grade. Star, Richardson, Floyd... all deserved to be on the board somewhere. There's a varying degree of difference when you use the word "need".
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:51 PM    (permalink
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HUH? I guess Im just stupid or something lol
No, I'm stupid. lol. I failed at making my point. I realized what I said when I was responding to your last post. I'm not the authoritative source of what the Cowboys do. It's all a game of assumption for all of us. Just trying to explain how things might be, not how they are. But anyhow...

What I tried to say is that 1st round grades should stick on the board if we have at least some consideration for the need, but when I made my list, I realized there were some that totally didn't even come close for consideration. No way would we take Milliner, even if he did have a 1st round grade. Make sense? lol
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Old 05-01-2013, 04:52 PM    (permalink
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LOL IDK, I think JJ is getting a pass on this whole deal dispite his track record. I get being a hopeful fan but it sure doesnt add up for me. Just my opinion.
How the hell do you figure JJ is getting a pass?!

The talking heads automatically assume Dallas makes a mistake regardless of the move. Yet, the Giants and the Bears take OL that are at least a half a round too early and they are either glossed over, or in the Giants case, given great marks for 'filling needs'.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:01 PM    (permalink
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How the hell do you figure JJ is getting a pass?!

The talking heads automatically assume Dallas makes a mistake regardless of the move. Yet, the Giants and the Bears take OL that are at least a half a round too early and they are either glossed over, or in the Giants case, given great marks for 'filling needs'.
This isnt a Fan board for the Bears or Giants so I dont know or care what others are saying about them or their picks. The free pass is coming from some Cowboy fans on this board. Its a FACT we got screwed in the trade as far as value goes. Its a FACT we passed on higher rated prospects to fill a need. Its a FACT we did not have a 1st round grade on Fredrick. Its a FACT we passed on OUR #7 rated prospect even though he fell to 18. Be a fan and overlook all those things and tell yourself we came out GREAT. My opinion is different but thats ok.
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Old 05-01-2013, 05:06 PM    (permalink
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This isnt a Fan board for the Bears or Giants so I dont know or care what others are saying about them or their picks. The free pass is coming from some Cowboy fans on this board. Its a FACT we got screwed in the trade as far as value goes. Its a FACT we passed on higher rated prospects to fill a need. Its a FACT we did not have a 1st round grade on Fredrick. Its a FACT we passed on OUR #7 rated prospect even though he fell to 18. Be a fan and overlook all those things and tell yourself we came out GREAT. My opinion is different but thats ok.
Good thing about it is that we can see how this turns out in the end.

Will Frederick and Williams provide more impact for the Cowboys than Floyd would have?

At the end of all your complaints, that is the bottom line.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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What's Spencer do in a 34 that made him an asset? What will be his potential strength as a 43 DE? I don't really watch him so don't know what makes him good.
Spencer is a player I think most fans have mixed feelings on based on his draft status and production. He is good against the run, but his effectiveness as a pass rusher runs hot and cold. Why that is, I dont know. He's kind of an enigma, he gets hot in streaks and then disappears. He is a solid and at times very good player but he still needs to show more consistency.
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