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Old 05-02-2013, 01:43 AM    (permalink
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I'd have stayed at 18 and drafted either Floyd (best player available) or Reid (walk-in starter at a need position). I think the Cowboys would have been able to find a center in the later rounds. Don't get me wrong -- Frederick is a good player, a walk-in starter who will play for a long time. But if you've got the money to buy a Mercedes, why settle for a Chrysler? I'm just not a fan of trading down in the first round -- not when blue-chip players are available to address need positions.by Rick Gosselin April 29 at 1:15 PM

I probably should just stop with the Quotes huh? No matter who says it, hes just a "draftnik" with no crediability and has no clue what hes talking about but somehow Jerry does.
Just another in the long line of critics who will bash the decision to move down, but stay safe of future criticism by stating how good they think Frederick will be.

COP OUT. True blue, dyed through the wool.

Find me someone who will bash the trade and bash Frederick and Williams.
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:14 AM    (permalink
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Just another in the long line of critics who will bash the decision to move down, but stay safe of future criticism by stating how good they think Frederick will be.

COP OUT. True blue, dyed through the wool.

Find me someone who will bash the trade and bash Frederick and Williams.

they could have gotten a better receiver than williams at 31 and still got frederick at 47
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Old 05-02-2013, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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they could have gotten a better receiver than williams at 31 and still got frederick at 47
How could you possibly know that Frederick would be there at 47...
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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How could you possibly know that Frederick would be there at 47...
How many interior lineman went in the 2nd round?
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Old 05-02-2013, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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A positive evaluation of our draft

http://www.nfl.com/draft/story/0ap10...makes-his-mark
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Old 05-02-2013, 12:18 PM    (permalink
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How many interior lineman went in the 2nd round?
You think maybe...just maybe...Frederick who had a 2nd round grade might have been selected in the 2nd round before pick 47? Pretty easy to act correct when you are playing fortune teller after the fact...
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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Just another in the long line of critics who will bash the decision to move down, but stay safe of future criticism by stating how good they think Frederick will be.

COP OUT. True blue, dyed through the wool.

Find me someone who will bash the trade and bash Frederick and Williams.
The COP OUT is the guy who knows our needs, makes a list of the top prospects that fit the needs of our team, NEVER lists Fredrick in his top 40 or so players, then comes out and says this is a great pick!! When questioned why hes such a great pick but was NEVER in 1st round discussions it was because he wasnt really studied. Sooooo our #1 need is interior O-line and this guy just happens to be rated the #1 Center and plays for a big time school that has a history of producing O-linemen and he wasnt scouted or watched or read up on or whatever means you use to come up with your lists? Color me skeptical. To say you cant like a player but hate the value is ridiculous. Are you telling me that if we would have had the exact same draft with the exception that we took your boy Barkley at 31 instead of Fredrick you would be happy with that pick and this draft? If so Im gonna start calling you D-Unit Jones. Another example was Julius Jones. I liked him at Notre Dame but did I like the fact we traded down and passed on Stephen Jackson? HELL NO! Another STUPID move but that doesnt mean I hated Julius but I hated the trade and who we passed on. IDK how thats a COP OUT.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:58 PM    (permalink
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You think maybe...just maybe...Frederick who had a 2nd round grade might have been selected in the 2nd round before pick 47? Pretty easy to act correct when you are playing fortune teller after the fact...
Who had him with a 2nd round grade? Surely not the "draftniks" that everybody says I should ignore. I guess they are only to be ignored unless they suit your point of view? The guy(s) that had him 87 and 92 on their board are idiots but the guy(s) that had him with a 2nd round grade are to be heard huh?
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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You think maybe...just maybe...Frederick who had a 2nd round grade might have been selected in the 2nd round before pick 47? Pretty easy to act correct when you are playing fortune teller after the fact...
ok then ms cleo since were talking fortune tellers, who was going to take travis frederick, all the lineman except for cooper and warmack are projected to be tackles.

but since you think i'm just talking to be talking lets breakdown the second round before pick 47

lets look at the teams that would be looking for interior line help, but first lets eliminate some teams both NO & CLE forfeited picks. the were 6 o-lineman taken in the top 17 and 2 were guards so lets eliminate ARZ & TEN. of the other 4 (phi, jax, kc, sd) only sd has a pressing need at guard.

so lets look at everybody else, det could use a g/c but despite having one of the most talented front 4 in the nfl, they were still one of the worse defenses b/c of that horrific secondary and what do you know the took a corner, i'm betting they would taken a db over g/c. cincy took a zeitler in the 1st round last year, sd traded up to get teo and they too many needs to focus on 1 portion of their team, would the jets really choose a g/c over the #1 qb in the draft after the season "The Sanchize" just had (especially since they have a franchise center and rt is more of a need on the o-line anyway). sf has the best line in the nfl so they're not taking them. buffalo has eric wood and they signed louis vasquez away from SD so they're not taking him either. Oak has similar player to frederick already on the team (stephen wisnewski) and their so talent defecient g/c is not a big priority. tampa bay spent big money on nicks and joseph is a former 1st rounder, and they didn't have a pick in the 1st so they're not gonna be looking for a g/c and carolina drafted a guard in the second round last year. and pittsburgh has 2 first round picks at guard and center already.

so i ask where does frederick go,to a detroit passing on a db when they have one of the worst secondaries, san diego taking a g/c when they didn't find it a big priority to sign its only above average interior lineman or is it oakland who had a limited number of picks and there going to spend their only other premium pick on a interior lineman when they have a hole at left tackle and more holes in their entire team than swiss cheese.

the reality is the cowboys reached for frederick because jerry jones didn't want what happened in the 2009 draft to happen again, where they saw that max unger the guy they wanted to be the center of the future was going to fall to them and then seattle traded up one spot ahead of the cowboys and took him. that is the sole reason they took him that early b/c you honestly can't make a great case for the teams ahead of the cowboys to take frederick.

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Old 05-02-2013, 02:28 PM    (permalink
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I'm not gonna sit here and argue about where Frederick would have went. I just want to be clear that no one has a clue where Frederick would have went if we went a different direction. NO ONE. Where was Long rated by the talking heads? Did his value match his draft stock? What about Pugh? It's clear that the draft pundits value was a bit low on OL in general since teams went need over BPA a lot in this draft. I'm not saying Frederick would have even gone top 50. But what I'm saying is the difference between Frederick/Pugh/Long is close enough that after the draft looking back at how it fell Frederick wasn't as big of a reach as predraft value boards show. Because they would also show Pugh and Long as reaches. OL flew off the board and we secured a player we liked 1 spot away from the round he was projected by us. I don't have access to any teams boards so I can't say who else gave him a 2nd round grade. But what we all know is that starting OL went early and none of us have the ability to tell the future.
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:48 PM    (permalink
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Cyprien, Warford, Armstead, Moore, This would have filled our needs better IMO. A top Safety, 2 good O-linemen and a very productive DE. And thats IF Fredrick wasnt there at 47. Maybe he would have been, maybe he wouldnt have. Either way we could have gotten a better Safety prospect and 2 guys to compete for G and RT.
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Old 05-02-2013, 02:55 PM    (permalink
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It's easy to look smart when you look at the draft after the fact and play shoulda/coulda/woulda.

Warford wasn't even on our board.
Armstead has nice upside...but does he start over Free/Parnell this year?
Moore would be nice too...but he's just a rotational player year 1.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:10 PM    (permalink
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It's easy to look smart when you look at the draft after the fact and play shoulda/coulda/woulda.

Warford wasn't even on our board.
Armstead has nice upside...but does he start over Free/Parnell this year?
Moore would be nice too...but he's just a rotational player year 1.
Those guys were avalible when they came up but passed. I could say the same about the guys we drafted minus Fredrick. Hes the only for sure day 1 starter. All Im saying is if they passed on Fredrick at 31 we still could have gotten similarly graded O-linemen at 47. IMO with all the needs we had we didnt solve any issues except at Center. TE, WR, RB, all luxury and we still have glaring holes at G, G, RT, Safety, and a blocking TE.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:21 PM    (permalink
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How many interior lineman went in the 2nd round?
That's ridiculous logic and you know better. There were no other OC/OG good enough to take.

For example, after Milliner and Hayden were off the board, it took 25 picks before another team took a CB. Why? Because there was none good enough. If Hayden hadn't gone at 11, another team would've scooped him up before 25 picks later.

Same thing applies.

You could argue that all of these teams could've taken a C/OG before 47:

32. Ravens - They start Geno Gradkowski and Reggie Stephens at C; they ended up drafting a C later in the draft.

34. Titans - They ended up drafting Schwenke. The need was undeniably there.

36. Lions - Clear need at C with a below avg 13 year vet in Dominic Raiola.

37. Bengals - Needed C. Drafted TJ Johnson.

39. Jets - They drafted 3 interior olineman. Definite possibility.

40. 49ers - C Johnathan Goodwin is a 12 year vet. In the last forum mock, the Niners GM traded up to take Jonathan Cooper to play.... Center.

41. Bills - Losing Levitre... easy possibility for them to have taken Frederick.

42. Raiders - Well the Raiders GM in the forum mock actually took Frederick. He must have had reason to so do.

46. Bills - They eventually did draft a C in this draft.


I didn't even really consider what if a team had wanted to draft Frederick as an OG amongst those picks.

Would Frederick had been there? We'll never know, but to talk in absolutes like he would have.... I don't see it.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:24 PM    (permalink
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the reality is the cowboys reached for frederick because jerry jones didn't want what happened in the 2009 draft to happen again, where they saw that max unger the guy they wanted to be the center of the future was going to fall to them and then seattle traded up one spot ahead of the cowboys and took him. that is the sole reason they took him that early b/c you honestly can't make a great case for the teams ahead of the cowboys to take frederick.
That's actually a good point. Another team with interest in him could've easily traded up and snatched him away from us.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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The COP OUT is the guy who knows our needs, makes a list of the top prospects that fit the needs of our team, NEVER lists Fredrick in his top 40 or so players, then comes out and says this is a great pick!! When questioned why hes such a great pick but was NEVER in 1st round discussions it was because he wasnt really studied. Sooooo our #1 need is interior O-line and this guy just happens to be rated the #1 Center and plays for a big time school that has a history of producing O-linemen and he wasnt scouted or watched or read up on or whatever means you use to come up with your lists? Color me skeptical. To say you cant like a player but hate the value is ridiculous. Are you telling me that if we would have had the exact same draft with the exception that we took your boy Barkley at 31 instead of Fredrick you would be happy with that pick and this draft? If so Im gonna start calling you D-Unit Jones. Another example was Julius Jones. I liked him at Notre Dame but did I like the fact we traded down and passed on Stephen Jackson? HELL NO! Another STUPID move but that doesnt mean I hated Julius but I hated the trade and who we passed on. IDK how thats a COP OUT.
Well even you admit you like the player... but I can't?

At least I'm putting myself out there. If he busts, then I eat crow. I'm sure it will be shoved down my throat with no mercy. Cop out? I don't see my out.

For you, either way... you've got an out. If he busts then you can preach about how bad of a reach he was. If he makes it, you can always go back to saying you how liked the player.

We are commoners bro. We don't work for a staff and we don't have the resources to do the homework on these players like teams do. Not even the draftniks have that kind of resources. It was easy for me to fall in love with Frederick once the info starts flowing out. Did I know he was that nasty breaking teammates arms? No. Did I know he was a double engineering major? No. Did I know what his coaches thought of him? No. I had a few games of watching him during the season, youtube highlights and combine numbers. ...and really, the combine numbers combined with the fact that I thought we were going to a ZBS are what totally made him a mismatch for me. The draft is an inexact science and even the experts get it wrong.

I still question what philosophy we're going with on the OL. Maybe the Cowboys thought they'd decide after they came out of this draft and see where the value fell. I dunno. Maybe they feel like Frederick can play in both schemes. Perhaps I overcritiqued a Center's speed in the scheme... and lowered Frederick too much because of his slow 40 time.

Either way, I'm not too proud to ever think that my rankings are the basis for judging the value of players where they ultimately end up in the draft.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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Well even you admit you like the player... but I can't?

At least I'm putting myself out there. If he busts, then I eat crow. I'm sure it will be shoved down my throat with no mercy. Cop out? I don't see my out.

For you, either way... you've got an out. If he busts then you can preach about how bad of a reach he was. If he makes it, you can always go back to saying you how liked the player.

We are commoners bro. We don't work for a staff and we don't have the resources to do the homework on these players like teams do. Not even the draftniks have that kind of resources. It was easy for me to fall in love with Frederick once the info starts flowing out. Did I know he was that nasty breaking teammates arms? No. Did I know he was a double engineering major? No. Did I know what his coaches thought of him? No. I had a few games of watching him during the season, youtube highlights and combine numbers. ...and really, the combine numbers combined with the fact that I thought we were going to a ZBS are what totally made him a mismatch for me. The draft is an inexact science and even the experts get it wrong.

I still question what philosophy we're going with on the OL. Maybe the Cowboys thought they'd decide after they came out of this draft and see where the value fell. I dunno. Maybe they feel like Frederick can play in both schemes. Perhaps I overcritiqued a Center's speed in the scheme... and lowered Frederick too much because of his slow 40 time.

Either way, I'm not too proud to ever think that my rankings are the basis for judging the value of players where they ultimately end up in the draft.
Meh. Ive stated over and over I woulnt have drafted him in the 1st. If he turns into a Pro Bowler and Cyprien doesnt then Ill admit I was wrong. If Floyd busts Ill admit I was wrong. Believe me Im not looking for a out. It just strikes me as funny how he was an after thought until we drafted him and now hes great. If he would have went to anybody else in the 2nd round nobody would have said a word. Just seems like hes getting boosted up cuz hes a Cowboy.
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Old 05-02-2013, 03:57 PM    (permalink
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Hill provides some new detail. Going into the draft, Dallas had three primary targets they were hoping to get at 18, which match up with what many fans were saying: Guards Chance Warmack and Jonathan Cooper, and safety Kenny Vaccaro. Further, Jerry Jones was committed to upgrading the offensive line or safety at that draft position, or trading back. Defensive line was simply not part of Jones' thinking. The scouts wanted to go pure BPA, and felt the high grade they had on Floyd (quoted here as "top 10", which would not conflict with the # 7 position cited elsewhere) more than justified taking him. And according to this account, the coaches had a similar viewpoint to Jerry, so the split was actually more down the middle of the war room. And the scouts got outvoted.

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They didn't expect Floyd to be there (at 18), so there was a long discussion on Floyd. Jones sided with the coaches.
That puts things in a bit of a different light. Since the article specifically says "coaches", it would certainly indicate that Monte Kiffin and Rod Marinelli had input. It is possible (just to speculate) that Garrett was inclined to go with the scouts, but Kiffin and Marinelli were in step with Jerry. But regardless where each individual stood, the information presented by Hill is that the scouts wanted Floyd because he was so high on the board, the coaches were not sold on his fit in Kiffin's 4-3 (possibly because of his low sack total in college since Kiffin is all about pressure on the quarterback all the time), and Jones did not want anyone except offensive line or safeties. With no players fitting Jones' desired profile, the trade option was selected. The scouts lost out in a three way disagreement where they got outnumbered, and they felt that the team erred in deviating from the board at that point.
FINALLY. A good answer for you Pocket. :) Scouts (and Garrett) are asking for Floyd at 18 and following the pre-draft board. KIFFIN/defensive coaches sided with Jerry/Stephen on a trade-down given his potential mis-match for Kiffin's scheme. So defensive coaches didn't trust the fit despite the scouting department giving him the #7 spot on our board.

All good now?
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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FINALLY. A good answer for you Pocket. :) Scouts (and Garrett) are asking for Floyd at 18 and following the pre-draft board. KIFFIN/defensive coaches sided with Jerry/Stephen on a trade-down given his potential mis-match for Kiffin's scheme. So defensive coaches didn't trust the fit despite the scouting department giving him the #7 spot on our board.

All good now?
They didn't see a good fit for Floyd evidently, and everyone was thinking OL but not particularly center, so it was a bit of a shock. But then you stop and reconsider the pick and it makes more sense. Everything else, regarding who or what they could've done is just conjecture at this point.
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Old 05-02-2013, 07:24 PM    (permalink
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Another wrench to throw in this whole ordeal. The scouts have been working all year in the college ranks. These grades should have been set by early January after the bowl games. Up until then we were scouting 3-4 players. So I think in the end when it came down to scouts vs. coaches....coaches did win out. Why would you draft the 7th overall rated player who they viewed as a 3-4 NT to play the 1-tech in our scheme.

I'm sure that they revised the list once the scheme change came into play...but our scouts had spend MONTHS looking at 3-4 players that fit Ryans scheme. Then all of a sudden 3-4 months prior to the draft our whole defensive philosophy changes? I think we have to take that into account here as well.

I'm not naive enough to believe that we didn't readjust our players for the new scheme...but it's just more fuel for the fire that maybe in our new scheme with the players we have Floyd wasn't as big of a need. Sure he was still rated as the 7th player in this draft. But if you brought in Kiffin and Marinelli and they are sitting in the draft room telling you he's not an elite 3 tech and will be a rotational player with the other 5 DT's we have...maybe just maybe...you decided getting 2 starters is a better option than 1 when he's not going to be a difference maker for your team.

just some thoughts.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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Meh. Ive stated over and over I woulnt have drafted him in the 1st. If he turns into a Pro Bowler and Cyprien doesnt then Ill admit I was wrong. If Floyd busts Ill admit I was wrong. Believe me Im not looking for a out. It just strikes me as funny how he was an after thought until we drafted him and now hes great. If he would have went to anybody else in the 2nd round nobody would have said a word. Just seems like hes getting boosted up cuz hes a Cowboy.
I'd say "justified" is a better word than "boosted up".

I really think you have the perception the other way around. This is one of the few places that you'll probably find guys who actually took well to the Frederick pick. The popular notion is definitely on your side where Cowboys bashing is in full force.

When I heard the pick, I wasn't jumping for joy... My reaction was nice.... OL is OL...and that was our #1 need. Let's learn more about him! The more I learned, he was easy to like. This wasn't some homer, yay it's Cowboys so everything they do is great type of analysis. I found justification in the pick. It's there bro.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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I'd say "justified" is a better word than "boosted up".

I really think you have the perception the other way around. This is one of the few places that you'll probably find guys who actually took well to the Frederick pick. The popular notion is definitely on your side where Cowboys bashing is in full force.

When I heard the pick, I wasn't jumping for joy... My reaction was nice.... OL is OL...and that was our #1 need. Let's learn more about him! The more I learned, he was easy to like. This wasn't some homer, yay it's Cowboys so everything they do is great type of analysis. I found justification in the pick. It's there bro.
In your opinion, why in a weak draft and after all of the great things you read and saw about him and considering he was the #1 rated Center, was he mostly a 2nd or 3rd round pick in most circles?
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:20 PM    (permalink
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Dallas Cowboys owner/general manager Jerry Jones spoke to the team's season-ticket holders and sponsors via a conference call Wednesday.

Jones spoke for an hour and according to the voice of the Cowboys Brad Sham, there were nearly 1,000 questions though he didn't answer all of them.


Here's some highlights:

On Valley Ranch being a country club atmosphere: "I donít think that we do have a country club atmosphere around here. Thereís too much competition. These players recognize how fortunate they are to be in the NFL, to have these opportunities. Weíve got as good or better leadership than my experience in 24 years with the Cowboys has seen."

On the safety position, whish has veteran Will Allen and young players in Matt Johnson, Barry Church, Danny McCray and draft pick J.J. Wilcox: "I think weíre in good shape at safety." Jones later added, "I donít know when Iíve ever seen a player impress our staff without having played in a ballgame any more than Matt Johnson." Jones was asked about naming starters and didn't, instead praising each player.

Defensive end Anthony Spencer is signed for this season at $10.6 million, but he's been franchised the last two seasons. There is some concern if the Cowboys will lock Spencer up long-term: "We'd like to have him under a long-term agreement. He knows that."

PODCAST
On his conference call, Jerry Jones talked about leadership. Nate Newton joins Fitzsimmons & Durrett to discuss the leadership experience he had with the Cowboys.

Listen On Tim Tebow, who was released by the New York Jets and why the Cowboys don't want a third-string quarterback: "We really feel good about Kyle Orton and that's where it all starts and stops right there. He will be used differently to some degree than we use (Tony) Romo, but he's capable of winning big games and we know how important that backup slot is, especially if it's temporary if you don't have Romo. We're pretty set at quarterback there. We wish Tim all the luck and the best in the world."

On the defense: "The defense should be the strength of our team arguably, the defensive line can be the strength of the team." Later Jones said, "Our defense will fit Monte Kiffin's scheme. It actually will be a simpler defense for this group to get. The adjustment from where we were in the 3-4 to the 4-3 will not be as significant as it might appear."

On the health of Jay Ratliff: We don't think Jay Ratliff is injury prone. He had possibly three different injuries last year. He is further down the road in his career than he was a few years ago. But we think of all that he's very sound physically and we think he'll flourish in this defensive scheme. He's a natural three technique."

On the draft board: Jones said the Cowboys had center Travis Frederick ranked ahead of LSU safety Eric Reid. The Cowboys moved down in the NFL draft, switching from No. 18 to No. 31 after a trade with the San Francisco 49ers. Frederick was projected as a second-day pick and said he was surprised the Cowboys grabbed him in the first round. Jones also indicated there were two to three safeties ranked ahead of Wilcox on the draft board. Wilcox was a third-round pick.

Jones on losing to the New York Giants at Cowboys Stadium (The Cowboys open the 2013 season at Cowboys Stadium against the New York Giants. The Cowboys are 0-4 against the Giants at home): "It is a pain."
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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On the draft board: Jones said the Cowboys had center Travis Frederick ranked ahead of LSU safety Eric Reid. The Cowboys moved down in the NFL draft, switching from No. 18 to No. 31 after a trade with the San Francisco 49ers. Frederick was projected as a second-day pick and said he was surprised the Cowboys grabbed him in the first round. Jones also indicated there were two to three safeties ranked ahead of Wilcox on the draft board. Wilcox was a third-round pick.
I heard the same thing rumors being the three safeties ahead of Wilcox were Vaccaro, Reid, and Cyprien in that order. Mike Fisher was talking about it on the radio but didn't give a source.
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Old 05-02-2013, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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FINALLY. A good answer for you Pocket. :) Scouts (and Garrett) are asking for Floyd at 18 and following the pre-draft board. KIFFIN/defensive coaches sided with Jerry/Stephen on a trade-down given his potential mis-match for Kiffin's scheme. So defensive coaches didn't trust the fit despite the scouting department giving him the #7 spot on our board.

All good now?
Excellent insight. Wish I was a fly on the wall.

I bet Garrett was upset because he wanted Eifert. I never saw him more pissed off than when he stomped on the table and walked out of the room when Tavon Austin got taken. So focused on offense, he probably wanted to add the receiveing weapon that is Tyler Eifert. Taking Escobar in Round 2 only solidifies that idea, imo.

Scouts... yeah, I can easily see they wanted Floyd.

Kiffin/Marinelli want "Rush men". Floyd isn't that kind of DT. They probably helped talk Jerry out of it and promoted taking Sly at 31.

Jerry wanting OL or S makes sense, but with Vacarro gone and OL shot, he didn't have a great option there.

So yeah, it was probably a split room. Not just guys on one side of the coin or the other.


---

There must have been anxiety leading up to 31.

There was talk of us being interested in Sly, Patterson...

Kiffin/Marinelli were probably deflated when Sly was gone. Dooley probably punched the wall when Patterson was gone.

If Jerry is looking at OL and S...

We knew S was deep in this draft... Probably why they eventually opted against S at 31.

In the end, with Garrett and Ciscowski looking at their rankings they found solice in taking Frederick. Stephen was probably happy just for getting his engineer. Jerry was happy because he wanted OL.
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