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Old 05-10-2013, 11:27 AM    (permalink
WCH
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Taking this to the extreme, I vaguely remember some polling organization in the late 90's did some research and ultimately concluded that Michael Jordan could probably win a Presidential race.

I was living in Detroit when Dave Bing was running for mayor. Nobody knew where he stood on anything. Everybody knew that he was a former Pistons star.

Tebow would have absolutely no problems.

Last edited by WCH : 05-10-2013 at 11:29 AM.
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Old 05-10-2013, 12:37 PM    (permalink
Zycho32
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Originally Posted by SickwithIt1010 View Post
Who the **** is EJ Samuel?
Whoops. Now you can tell I went into this draft utterly blind. Manuel, not Samuel.
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Old 05-10-2013, 03:22 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i'll never really understand why people keep making this bizarre assumption that it's football fans who are calling for tebow to start in every city he goes to. it's not. it's the million and one idiot tebow fans who don't care about football, but who think he's a superhero. those people don't care that tom brady is a pretty good qb. they want superman in. they don't care that he can't play football, they want him on tv.
It's a combination. I'll call myself a football fan for the sake of what I'm saying, which is that I'd get a real kick out of seeing a team use their quarterback like a fullback, and sort of do a Georgia Tech thing, or to just let Tebow do something like he did at Florida. And I say that because I think there's a possibility that it could work. Like I said in my previous post - when it came down to the 4th quarter and his coaches basically had no choice but to say, "**** it. Do whatever you want, Tim." - he came through in a big way. What's the harm in letting him do that all game if it means winning? I just can't imagine a coach being willing to try that. It's not that I don't think it could work. The flip side of this is that for everyone who judges his ability to play a football position which receives the ball from center on every play while using Tom Brady as the barometer, anyone who suggests Tebow could be a "good quarterback" is automatically dubbed a religious wingnut who doesn't know anything about football and only wants him to play because they get warm fuzzies when he points his fingers to the sky.

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a significant number of those people, while he was in denver, were into him solely and completely for the religion angle, for instance. if that's your mindset, the fact that he can't play is less relevant than the fact that him playing spreads a message you think ought to be spread.
And the reason it got so huge is that he replaced an ineffective-yet-traditional Kyle Orton and took a team that had opened 1-4 into the playoffs, with most of those victories coming the way I mentioned - when the game got to a point when there was no choice for his coaches but to stop trying to have him run traditional plays. If he's winning that way, why is there such opposition to letting him do it all game? He obviously holds the team back if he's expected to be a traditional passer, but it's just as obvious that he's super clutch and thrives in those pressure situations. It's just as easy, from a football perspective, to say that the people saying he can never succeed as an NFL quarterback are biased themselves, whether because they can't imagine sustained, unconventional success, or they dislike him for the reasons unrelated to actually playing football. Don't get me wrong; I think the media is annoying as **** about Tebow, but it doesn't mean much to me as far as how he could be used on the football field. It's unfortunate that such a circus follows him around.

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so please. stop trying to think about him like a rational football fan. realize that the people who turned him into a cancer don't care about the team, the sport or the situation. and then further realize that ESPN knows exactly how to play off that to gain viewers. there is no 'safe' team.
And I think you're right. He's not a cancer. It's the people who won't stop posting mundane details about him all over the front page of nfl.com and ESPN. They're killing his career. It's a situation now where any coach or GM who brings Tebow in could be perceived as risking his job. At least, that's what all those articles are going to suggest. I ******* hate the media. Speaking of people who don't know much about football. Most of the people who cover it seem to merely be journalists who found some niche in the sports world and like playing fantasy football.
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Old 05-10-2013, 03:49 PM    (permalink
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I still remember how extremely lucky he got. Like the Bears game. For one Forte and Cutler both missed the game, for two he had completed 1 pass going into the 4th quarter I believe for a few yards, and then it took Marion Barber completely losing his mind to run out of bounds when they had a chance to win the game before OT, and fumbling the ball in OT to lose it. I don't even know how to explain things like that, but to the Tebow fans all that meant was "juz winzzz gamezzzz" and completely ignore how pathetic he was leading up to that.


I think it'll be hilarious when he does sign up to play in Canada and then ESPN still follows him around like Michael Jackson everywhere.
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I guarantee that if someone picks Cam Newton in the Top 5 they will regret it.
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:05 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i think the difference here is that if you had a guy like jay cutler, or roethlisberger or whoever in front of him, you're not going to spend every waking minute screaming for tebow to be a starter. for instance, if seattle signs him tomorrow, there's no chance you'd want him to start over wilson. but the vast majority of his fans *would* because they don't care about seattle. they don't care about football. they care about tim. so while some of you (you, bbd, etc) want him to start somewhere, none of you are advocating he start for your team, if your team happens to sign him. there's a vast difference between the two.
You're right that I wouldn't want him over Russell Wilson, but that's because I think Russell Wilson is on his way to being a superstar player. And I agree that there's no reason to shake up the whole offense if you already have someone like Cutler or Roethlisberger. But there are teams out there that have nothing to lose as far as rolling the dice on a unique player. I would be willing to give a Tebow-offense a shot if I was a fan of, say, Kansas City, Jacksonville, Oakland, maybe Arizona, Cleveland perhaps, Buffalo, Tennessee or Minnesota. Not that I'd just straight-up insert him as the starter in those places, but that if I was a fan I wouldn't be gnashing my teeth if the coach announced they were going to "bring Tebow in and try something a little different this year." All those teams are going to be looking for a new quarterback soon anyways. I also think he makes sense as a backup in places like Seattle, Carolina, Washington, Buffalo, Philadelphia, and San Francisco. For the record, I have stated before that I'd welcome him to Seattle, but why would I want him to start over Russell? I don't want anyone to start over him. I'd decline Tom Brady, no question.

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see, that's revisionist. orton wasn't ineffective. he was putting 20 points on the board in all but one game. and he essentially lost the job after losing to green bay, 49-23. tebow never scored over 20 as the starter, and only won because the defense gelled, and didn't give up 20 in all but one of his regular season wins. tebow couldn't do anything when the team was down by 35 to detroit. or 18 to new england. or 36 to buffalo.once the team was down by two scores, the game was over. he wasn't capable of winning it. and he wasn't capable of keeping the team in games with a high scoring opponent. that the offense was traditional at one point and not at others is also a bit of a misrepresentation. tim 'ran' the offense identically, because that's all he was capable of doing. the drop back passes went away. mccarthy, after the first game when he replaced orton, developed an entire new playbook, to try to take advantage of what tebow did and didn't do.
Considering the bold points, you may well be right. I did watch a lot of those games, but I don't know Denver like you do. I mostly remember the comebacks where the opposing defense didn't have an answer, and I remember the games where he looked really bad seeming like he was just totally out of his element. I guess my analysis wants to interpret that as a result of the team wanting him to pass first, instead of running a true option between passing and running, more like Florida. I could just be wrong, though; I don't know Denver's offense. That's what I'm thinking about when I think about the end of games. Most of his big plays were running plays, so I wonder how he and his team would fare if that was more of a focus earlier in games - if their gameplan was literally to "get Tebow going" on the ground in expectation that doing so is going to open up passing plays for him later in the game. Who knows? Half my point is that I don't feel like we ever saw that approach.

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which becomes your next problem. let's say the patriots sign him, just for shits and giggles. if tom brady gets hurt, tebow cannot run the patriots offense. so now, the entire offense has to be overhauled, with an entirely new playbook. every offensive player has to learn new plays. the offensive line has to learn different protections. and when brady comes back? they have to go right back to the same offense.
Right, and I've never thought New England was a good fit for him. He'd be less likely to see the field there than with the Jets, and BB is absolutely not going to put a QB in the game who can't break down defenses with precision. It's just not a good fit. But with the way the league is changing, think about all the best young quarterbacks - you're talking about guys who have a running element to their game, and those teams are using substantial amounts of read-option plays in their gameplans, so while the offense would change with Tebow in the game it wouldn't have to change as much as a team like New England would have to. Other than that, I've really got nothing personal to say about Tebow. I just don't care what he believes. But I am frustrated that the media is having such a major impact on how this all plays out; there's just that part of me that really wants to see a fullback version of Kordell Stewart. You are right, though, that there are tons of people who see him as this sort of "leader" and not just as a football player who's way more physical than his position typically requires, which is the thing that makes him an interesting player to me, and surely others.

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Old 05-10-2013, 04:30 PM    (permalink
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The most annoying part of Tebow is the attention. Watching Redzone alone they'd manage to get him on tv 30 times. Can't even imagine what a Jets game would have been like.
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Old 05-10-2013, 07:09 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
see, but that goes back to my later point. you now need two offenses if he's your backup. because he simply isn't capable of running most of the plays wilson runs. some of the run stuff, sure. but those precision passes? deep balls? cut those out. if wilson got hurt, you're down to like, one page of your playbook, and you'd better have the rest in place for the next week.
And that's fair, but you're going to have to adjust either way when a backup comes in - the backup isn't going to have Russell's skills either. If I was thinking of Tebow in terms of being the backup, it would be in the sense that while my backup QB is less effective than my starter, hey - he's got these other skills that are valuable in their own right. But you're totally correct that it would require a whole different approach to the offense, which is surely a taller order, at least as far as gameplanning and coaching goes, than just putting in a more similar, but presumably lesser player and simply going conservative, as teams typically do when their starters are injured. It would definitely be "Tebow time" if Tebow came in off the bench, and when it boils down to it I think that's pretty much what you're saying. No such drama if Josh Portis or Jerrod Johnson comes in for Russell Wilson, and the rest of the offense doesn't have to go into a whole other mode.

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his running at the end was usually the result of a broken pass play. for some reason nfl defenses still seem to think running prevent is a good idea.
Yeah, it was. But I suppose what I'm thinking now is the Pittsburgh game, where they decided not to run a prevent defense, and we all know how that went. But... I dunno. Nothing ever works the same way twice in football. I won't dispute that he was playing with great defense and special teams, either. Maybe I do just like him as a fullback, insofar as the traits I like most about his game relate to a position which requires them, but the creative part of me won't let go of the exotic idea of what it would look like if Tebow was succeeding at his own style of football. I can imagine him, on a team with a strong defense and running game, just grinding it out in tandem with another good running back or two and a couple really fast wideouts running 9s all day waiting to come uncovered on a deep pass. I just think it would be refreshing and fun to watch something really different, but I won't deny the difficulty inherent in trying to play a different brand of football at the highest level, or in expecting him to come in as a backup without the team having to redefine the way it approaches the game.

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