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Old 05-13-2013, 01:39 PM    (permalink
NY+Giants=NYG
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Meh, I'm not worried about taking away reps. If the coaches can't manage who deserves the reps and who should be getting them then that's their fault. I think too much gets put into "stealing reps." There are thousands upon thousands of reps. Someone has to take them. You just have to trust your coaching. Coughlin will do what is necessary.

And don't get me wrong, I think Curry sucks. Maybe he finds new life here. who knows? It certainly would not be the first time this happens. To me it's win-win. If he sucks, cut him. If he is good, back him a back up or maybe a starter.
That's how I see it. Good, cheap, no risk move. If he pans out, we help his career and it helps our team. Win-Win for both parties. If not, we cut him.
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Old 05-13-2013, 02:26 PM    (permalink
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I'm with Alex. I think you're just being super negative. There are question marks as always but we have the potential to be good or bad.
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:02 PM    (permalink
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I think we have potential to be good or bad pretty much everywhere on our team.

Except LB. I think it's pretty much established that our LB core is gonna be putrid this year. And when TEs and WRs are wide open down the seams all year long, remember who wanted a damn linebacker in the draft!

</3
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Old 05-13-2013, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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I tend to agree with BBD here. I remember having similar type conversations about our defense 4-5 years ago. We had veterans who had given us years of above average play retiring, declining, or leaving en masse.

In our case it was Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel, McGinest, Samuel, and Colvin. Whereas you guys are experiencing the same thing with Tuck, Webster, Osi, Boley, and Phillips. We had similar conversations about our 2nd and 3rd round picks potentially stepping up to replace them, but at the end of the day it's easier said than done. It's a lot of quality to be stripped of at once, and unless you have a couple of abnormally good drafts it's almost impossible to replace it all on the fly.

The Giants simply don't have much of an identity on defense anymore. JPP is still exceptional and Jenkins, Hankins, and Moore could potentially turn into something, but it's a bit unreasonable to expect them to replace the results you once got from the D-Line a few years ago. Your linebacker core of Williams, Connor, and Rivers is really awful, and you're going to be relying heavily on Mundy, an unproven Prince and Hosley, and an aging Rolle and Webster on the back end. You simply don't do very much well anymore on defense, and when you don't have a singular area where you excel you tend to get hit in multiple spots which leads to the damn breaking entirely like it did with the Patriots.
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Old 05-13-2013, 09:21 PM    (permalink
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Our identity is always rushing the passer and stopping the run. We lost that identity because of age and injury at the DL spot AND we couldn't stop the run at all.

Look at how many DL guys we got, DE, and DT.

Moore, Kiwi, Tuck, JPP, Ojomo, and 2 others

Jenkins, Rodgers, Austin, Kuhn, Hankins, Okam, LinJo, Patterson.

That's pretty much a statement saying, we will NOT get run on.


LBs will NEVER be part of our system and WON'T be the driving factor to winning Sbs. Reese and Coughlin believe to shore up the DL and this will allow the LBs to stay clean, thus making plays. We can't have elite or super stars everywhere. For us we want trench players. We always have and we will stick to that.

Our secondary we have Webster coming off a mess of a season. Price, and Hosley. We need to see if any Cbs make it to play the Dockery or bruce johnson type role.

Safeties we have enough of. Let's see if someone can step up and do something.

In the end, our fate lies with one man and his scheme. Perry Fewell. He has no excuse if the team can't stop the run or stop giving up the home run ball.
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Old 05-13-2013, 09:43 PM    (permalink
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I think we have potential to be good or bad pretty much everywhere on our team.

Except LB. I think it's pretty much established that our LB core is gonna be putrid this year. And when TEs and WRs are wide open down the seams all year long, remember who wanted a damn linebacker in the draft!

</3
I really don't agree with you here BBD.

We have talent with upside at every position, there is a lot of potential.
Add in the fact there will be a lot of competition and there is every reason to expect this team to perform regardless of the final roster make up. The guys that make the team will have earned their spot in tough competitive circumstances.

The other factor that people over look is that players are not the sum of all they have been. Just because they played to a certain level for another team and system doesn't mean that is all they can do for us. This coaching staff emphasises on teaching and developing players. There are plenty of examples of players coming here and performing better than they did previously. Examples in recent years include O'Hara, Boley, McKenzie, Hixon, Bennett, Brown, Tollefson etc.

I also don't think LB is that bad either. Sure Boley and Chase are gone. Kiwi is likely to fill his joker role at SLB (at least on running downs), and we will use our three safety sets. Williams is the heir apparant to Boley's WLB spot. Paysinger has proven to be fast, athletic and a good special teamer. Rivers, Conners and Curry all have had various issues, but all have definate ability and fit the mould of faster athletic LBs we prefer; Rivers is well entrenched in our system. Then we still have Herzlich and Muasau competing for the roster spot. The key will be how healthy this unit can be, but the team doctors are obviously reasonably confident. Perhaps the biggest note is how we plan to use our LBs. Clearly we are majorly upgrading the big bodies up front which will keep our LBs cleaner, allowing them to flow to the play.

Team building with the salary cap is all about compromises. This offseason hasn't been flashy but it is very solid.

I don't buy all the doom and gloom, lets at least wait until camp and see how this team performs rather than grade the success or otherwise of an offseason before a single down has been played. Sure this season could go either way, but writing the season off now is stupid imho. Each season is very unpredictable, after all who predicted the amaemic pass rush following a SB season? How our guys perform on the field in games is really what matters.

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Old 05-13-2013, 10:06 PM    (permalink
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Our identity is always rushing the passer and stopping the run. We lost that identity because of age and injury at the DL spot AND we couldn't stop the run at all.

Look at how many DL guys we got, DE, and DT.

Moore, Kiwi, Tuck, JPP, Ojomo, and 2 others

Jenkins, Rodgers, Austin, Kuhn, Hankins, Okam, LinJo, Patterson.

That's pretty much a statement saying, we will NOT get run on.


LBs will NEVER be part of our system and WON'T be the driving factor to winning Sbs. Reese and Coughlin believe to shore up the DL and this will allow the LBs to stay clean, thus making plays. We can't have elite or super stars everywhere. For us we want trench players. We always have and we will stick to that.

Our secondary we have Webster coming off a mess of a season. Price, and Hosley. We need to see if any Cbs make it to play the Dockery or bruce johnson type role.

Safeties we have enough of. Let's see if someone can step up and do something.

In the end, our fate lies with one man and his scheme. Perry Fewell. He has no excuse if the team can't stop the run or stop giving up the home run ball.
Good point

Look at our 90 man roster at the moment (and predicted 53 roster spots)
Note: Kiwi is listed at LB.

4 QBs (3) - 1 expected cut
9 WRs (6) - 3 expected cuts
6 TEs (3) - 3 expected cuts
16 OL (9) - 7 expected cuts
6 RB (3) - 3 expected cuts
1 FB (1)

17 DLs (9) - 8 expected cuts
20 DBs (10) -10 expected cuts
9 LBs (6) - 3 expected cuts

2 K (1) - 1 expected cut
1 P (1)
1 LS (1)

This gives a fair idea where the major camp battles are likely to be, particularly when you consider the talent at each position.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:16 AM    (permalink
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I agree with BBD, our defense will probably be lame this season.

It's a combination of horrible coaching and mediocre back 7 players. A lot of it will become instantly better after next season hopefully, when we fire Fewell and get another DC.

One can only hope that the next DC will implement a defense that suits the players on our roster better than the current one. And one more draft with good defensive players, and we should be ok for 2014. Sad to say really, but that's the reality of the situation as I see it right now.

I'm certainly hoping and praying for multiple pleasant surprises from the LBs, DBs and DC this fall, but I'm not expecting it.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:58 AM    (permalink
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Think about it guys. You are asking for ALOT from a bunch of unproven players in order for our defense to be at an elite level. Think about how many ifs need to fall into place for us to be good. Its just an unrealistic expectation.

Our LB core is an absolute joke. The only LB on the roster worth a damn is JWill. Everyone else is trash. Connor? He's trash. And he can't stay healthy. Rivers? If he gets a papercut he's on IR. Herzlich? Love the guy, but he has a damn metal rod in his leg people. Paysinger? Good guy, but as JAG as they come.

Our linebackers are absolute garbage!

Ok, so our DL could be good. I'll give them that. We added bulk inside vs the run, and if Moore and Tracy step up we might have something there.

But then look at our secondary. It's also mediocre as hell. Do you honestly expect all of these pieces to sort themselves out? You're being unrealistic if you are.

Our back 7 is extremely mediocre. That's just the truth. You're relying on our front 4 to win on every snap. That's extremely unrealistic. This defense is not going to be good.
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Old 05-14-2013, 07:59 AM    (permalink
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I tend to agree with BBD here. I remember having similar type conversations about our defense 4-5 years ago. We had veterans who had given us years of above average play retiring, declining, or leaving en masse.

In our case it was Harrison, Bruschi, Vrabel, McGinest, Samuel, and Colvin. Whereas you guys are experiencing the same thing with Tuck, Webster, Osi, Boley, and Phillips. We had similar conversations about our 2nd and 3rd round picks potentially stepping up to replace them, but at the end of the day it's easier said than done. It's a lot of quality to be stripped of at once, and unless you have a couple of abnormally good drafts it's almost impossible to replace it all on the fly.

The Giants simply don't have much of an identity on defense anymore. JPP is still exceptional and Jenkins, Hankins, and Moore could potentially turn into something, but it's a bit unreasonable to expect them to replace the results you once got from the D-Line a few years ago. Your linebacker core of Williams, Connor, and Rivers is really awful, and you're going to be relying heavily on Mundy, an unproven Prince and Hosley, and an aging Rolle and Webster on the back end. You simply don't do very much well anymore on defense, and when you don't have a singular area where you excel you tend to get hit in multiple spots which leads to the damn breaking entirely like it did with the Patriots.
Yeah, that's a good analogy. And Patriot fans I'm sure were sick of the old guys by then bc they felt the youth could step up and replace them, in some cases improve the position. And it just didn't happen.

I can definitely see that happening with us. We're gonna need a couple of years to develop this defense again, bc right now I see a very mediocre unit going through a transition process.
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:44 AM    (permalink
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well, yeah, but we need to see what those unproven dudes can do since we're losing/cutting all of our old dead weight guys next year
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Old 05-14-2013, 08:45 AM    (permalink
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You can't have every unit on the field as a strength. Of course there will be some units that are average to below average but you just have to hope that it comes together. You're just crapping on every player who isn't good right now but the development is not over with these guys.
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:22 AM    (permalink
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well, yeah, but we need to see what those unproven dudes can do since we're losing/cutting all of our old dead weight guys next year
Yeah I understand that. I just think we need to take a realistic approach into evaluating how much those guys can provide us.

The future of our pass rush depends on a 6th rounder in Tracy, a UDFA in Ojomo, and Moore who I have high hopes for, but at the end of the day he ran a 5 second 40.

Our LBs are 2 retreads who are injury prone and mediocre, and JWill.

Our safeties are an aging Rolle, and 2 UDFAs.

Our CBs aren't too hot right now.

You see where I'm going with this? A lot of these players that you are hoping to emerge are UDFAs, or late round picks. Honestly, be honest with yourself, how many of them are actually going to pan out? How many? Think about it.

You know what this reminds me of? When we were so high on our LB depth last year, only to find out that it actually blows. That's what I see happening this year.

I hope a lot of these young guys pan out but you have to be realistic with your expectations. When you take a step back and realize that you're hoping that a lot of late round or UDFA guys are who you're hoping develops for us, then you have a SERIOUS problem.

I'm hoping I'm wrong, but I think chances are, we're gonna have an awful defense.
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:41 AM    (permalink
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In this salary cap era, and with our team on the cusp of being labeled "old", this is how we are getting cheaper and younger. So yeah, have a coke and a smile, and watch these battles and see who rises. You may be correct, and it could be an epic failure, and top ten draft slots, may help us rise again. That would be bad because it would be a waste of Eli's prime.

However, I am excited to see the younger guys compete. This was expected guys! We lost a boat load of FAs and had little cap space. So this shouldn't have been a surprise on any front.

This is the fun part of football. You get the younger guys in and see if they can do something. You're not going to get all stars at every position. LB is a spot that we don't really care about.
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:53 AM    (permalink
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To be fair guys, I absolutely think we could have a top 3 offense in the NFL. And I think we can have a good record bc our offense can be so good.

But to be a SB caliber team, you need to pack a defense with you. And right now, we're on the Patriots track of success. Which is great offense, mediocre defense, and that won't win in the postseason. Ask Patriots fans. They know.
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:57 AM    (permalink
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see all those problems BBD listed are why I'm upset with the Nassib pick. Just bums me out that we could've grabbed back 7 talent with that
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Old 05-14-2013, 09:59 AM    (permalink
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If we can stay healthy for once, I think, that would be a huge starting point. In our 2nd SB run, we were pretty healthy. I remember looking at the injury report and we were actually good to go.

Our DL needs to stay healthy. The way the system is it starts with them. I like our offense, but I am taking a wait and see approach. The OL needs to get better at run blocking. Pass blocking, Eli is mobile enough to move around in the pocket to get rid of it.

Nicks is the key. Can he stay healthy for once?! As season goes on and we get more tape on us, I want to see if things go stale or not. Can we add creative tendency breakers? We did after the bye week, during the GB game. That screen to Bradshaw was a very creative play and if Wilson has a chance like that it's a TD. His speed will hit homeruns. We haven't had that at RB yet.

The TEs need to be able to run block and china doll Baas comes back. Can he stay healthy? Snee and David D are both coming back from surgery too. We have no RT, but I do like that battle. So we still have some question marks. I want to see how things pan out.
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:21 AM    (permalink
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see all those problems BBD listed are why I'm upset with the Nassib pick. Just bums me out that we could've grabbed back 7 talent with that
He was so much higher on the board though than everyone else, I understand why we took him.

Our need positions needed to be addressed in rounds 1-3. Once you hit round 4, you enter JAG territory unless you get lucky.

Once we were in round 4, outside of maybe Hodges there wasn't anyone in the back 7 that was so good that we couldn't take Nassib there.

And look at it this way, he just freed up 1.7 million dollars against the cap per year for the next 4 years. I'll take it.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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If Gabe Carimi gets cut, i wouldn't mind scooping him up and seeing if we can salvage his career.

I loved Carimi coming out of college, I'm a little surprised and disappointed that he's not playing well.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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Same here. Rivers, Curry, and Carimi. Maybe we get 1 former first round bust reclimated.
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Old 05-14-2013, 12:53 PM    (permalink
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He has issues. He struggled at OT and OG. That's pretty bad. We can bring him in and hopefully he can salvage his career.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:00 PM    (permalink
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Can't hurt to give him a look. Yes I realize I'm being a hypocrite in saying that.

I'm a defense guy. Don't really care about offensive reps.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:05 PM    (permalink
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Can't hurt to give him a look. Yes I realize I'm being a hypocrite in saying that.

I'm a defense guy. Don't really care about offensive reps.
Haha, well if you say that then you can't say the same about defensive players/reps.

There are so many damn reps. I wouldn't worry about any getting taken. Coughlin will make sure the right guys get them. Not to mention with the barrage of injuries that happen in training camp and OTAs, you need guys who can step up and take some of those reps.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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The reps will figure itself out. If the person is struggling the coaches aren't going to increase your reps. Chances are they will let you go. If the players has connections they may keep you longer to get more film on you in another system so when the pro personnel scouts compare you prior to now on a new team they can check your progression.

The reps will always figure itself out I am not worried about that on any side of the ball.
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Old 05-14-2013, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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The quality of the reps matter though. Like if all your reps are 3rd string bc you can't squeeze any 2nd string reps in there, then that matters.

Especially since defenses react to offense, i think reps for defense are important bc the mental reps of reacting to certain keys is critical.

NYG is probably clenching his teeth right now reading this.
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