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Old 05-16-2013, 10:08 PM    (permalink
jrdrylie
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The biggest gauge will be Kurt Warner. If he gets in when his time comes, the bar has significantly dropped and a whole slew of the current QBs could get in.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:19 PM    (permalink
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The biggest gauge will be Kurt Warner. If he gets in when his time comes, the bar has significantly dropped and a whole slew of the current QBs could get in.
I disagree. I think Kurt Warner is a Hall of Famer based on his merits. As I like to say look at the resume.

Kurt Warner

4 Pro Bowl (1999, 2000, 2001, 2008)
2 All-Pro (1999, 2001)
2 AP NFL MVP (1999, 2001)
3 NEA NFL MVP (1999, 2001, 2008)
Super Bowl MVP (XXXIV)
Super Bowl champion (XXXIV)
Only QB to lead two different franchises to a super bowl

He isn't first ballot but he should be in.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:20 PM    (permalink
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The biggest gauge will be Kurt Warner. If he gets in when his time comes, the bar has significantly dropped and a whole slew of the current QBs could get in.
He is borderline and he has that feel good story the media loves. Religious guy who was a bag boy, went to another league, and made it big. That's a big time feel good story. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets in.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:36 PM    (permalink
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I HATE that you started this thread NYG.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:44 PM    (permalink
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Eli is a good QB but way too inconsistent at times. I just don't think he is HOF material.. Yeah he has 2 superbowl wins, but let's be real he is the luckiest QB in the league and constantly gets bailed out. Actually I think the Giants are the luckiest team in the league
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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Between injuries and poor play, Warner really only had 7 seasons as an effective starter. That's going to hurt him.
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Old 05-16-2013, 10:54 PM    (permalink
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It's funny that the teams with 'elite' QBs who Eli clearly OUTPLAYED in the playoffs on his two SB runs, in the case of the Packers(Rodgers) and Patriots(Brady), are the fanbase in this thread who are shouting the loudest Eli isn't 'elite' and winning SBs doesn't make a QB elite.

Spin it however you want, the Giants don't win their two latest SBs without Eli playing like a future HOFer in the playoffs.

The reason I'm calling bitter on Eli's critics in this thread is because it was Eli's entire playoff run during his SB wins that was so impressive, not just the championship game.

Hell Eli has really done all he ever needs to do for the rest of his career by beating the undefeated Pats.

I think when people are counting rings for QBs, most of us include how they won them, how they played in the playoffs AND how they played in the SB.

It's ridiculous to argue that since Eli is a future HOFer because of his rings, then Dilfer and Brad Johnson are HOFers too. Only someone who didn't watch any of those QBs in the playoffs or in the SB would make such an argument. There's a reason why Eli was SB MVP in both his wins and Dilfer/Johnson weren't.

Eli took a 10-6 team and a 9-7 squad on totally improbable SB runs. And the Giants had three special pass rushers, but their defense overall was far from elite in '07 and '11.

Take Eli and Ben off their SB teams and tell me which starting NFL QBs you'd replace them with and guarantee the same results? In the case of Eli I don't think you can really name any current NFL QB would've had the exact same results put into his situation. His performance was that outstanding.

With Big Ben, I can only think of a handful of 'elite' QBs who would probably have won under similar circumstances.

People will realize how elite Peyton/Brady/Eli/Ben/Rodgers/Brees are when they retire and the difficulty if not impossibility their teams have in replacing them.
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:01 PM    (permalink
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Between injuries and poor play, Warner really only had 7 seasons as an effective starter. That's going to hurt him.
Plus in the middle of those good seasons he had 5 seasons where he was primarily a backup/placeholder. And there's always the point that for all 7 of those years he had arguably the best WR tandem in the NFL.

But with 2 MVPs, 3 Super Bowl appearances, and 1 Super Bowl win he will get in. I'd probably keep him just outside, but I won't have a big problem with it when he does get in.

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Old 05-16-2013, 11:23 PM    (permalink
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I HATE that you started this thread NYG.
I hate that I keep responding to it even more.

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Eli is a good QB but way too inconsistent at times. I just don't think he is HOF material.. Yeah he has 2 superbowl wins, but let's be real he is the luckiest QB in the league and constantly gets bailed out. Actually I think the Giants are the luckiest team in the league
Either Eli has been ridiculously lucky since he beat the cowboys by audibling on the last play of the game to a run and Broncos with a last second back of the endzone throw to Amani Toomer, or clutchness exists and Eli excels at it more than any other QB in the NFL. After so many years of ridiculous two minute drives and last second scores, people calling Eli lucky is just absurd.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:19 AM    (permalink
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I hate that I keep responding to it even more.



Either Eli has been ridiculously lucky since he beat the cowboys by audibling on the last play of the game to a run and Broncos with a last second back of the endzone throw to Amani Toomer, or clutchness exists and Eli excels at it more than any other QB in the NFL. After so many years of ridiculous two minute drives and last second scores, people calling Eli lucky is just absurd.

He is one Asante Samuel drop and Kyle Williams fumble away from having 0 rings. I think its laughable that everyone just crowns him as "Elite" because of his last name and mediocre passing stats. How many great seasons in terms of regular season stats has he had in his career? The Giants never have good regular seasons and then as soon as the playoffs start that front 4 starts beasting. They owned Brady in the SB. Everybody knows the New York Giants are the luckiest franchise in the NFL. Be happy that you guys have won a pair of superbowls in the last 5 years because it won't happen again for a while.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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Bet we win a SB before the 9ers do.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:32 AM    (permalink
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I think I agree with both sides. I agree with the Eli supporters in that Eli is pretty easily a hall of fame QB as long as he continues his career. I also agree with the detractors in the sense that Eli isn't Elite by my definition. For me to call a player elite they must be in the conversation of Best QB in the league. When you talk to knowledgeable NFL fans, GMs, scouts, coaches or whoever you want to talk to and asked them their honest opinion of who the best QB in the NFL is at this point I don't think that many outside of the Giants organization will say Eli. Most will say Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, or Aaron Rodgers with a small contingent of Drew Brees love. When you are legitimately in the convo for best in the league then you are elite til then Eli is second tier which is nothing to be ashamed of there are several of these players in the Hall already.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:41 AM    (permalink
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But Eli's been elite in the big moments and in the playoffs, in fact in those aspects he's absolutely at least matched the performances of the other elite QBs. He doesn't have the big numbers year after year, but that's cause we used to have a running game that Coughlin relied heavily on because of his balance-boner, so Eli only needed to make plays in crunch time to win games rather than all game long, like Brady did when he still won SBs and unlike Peyton, Rodgers, Brees and Brady since he stopped winning rings.

Eli has been given more and more throws over the years but the only time he ever really got to slang it like Big Brother, Brady, Brees and Rodgers do on the regs, Eli put up almost 5000 yards (4933), 29 TDs, 16 picks, a YPA of 8.38, and carried a crap defense and non-existent running game to the playoffs, where he then brought home his second ring.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:56 AM    (permalink
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No doubt Eli is elite in the big games. Elite QBs are elite all the time.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 05-17-2013, 12:57 AM    (permalink
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Eli is just 'just' lucky?? I'm out. That's a loser argument BTW. I'd expect better from a 9ers fan.

EDIT: Elite QBs aren't elite all the time. Otherwise Brady would have 5 rings.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:02 AM    (permalink
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Eli is just 'just' lucky?? I'm out. That's a loser argument BTW. I'd expect better from a 9ers fan.

EDIT: Elite QBs aren't elite all the time. Otherwise Brady would have 5 rings.
All QBs have an Achilles heel the Giants just so happen to be Brady's
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:20 AM    (permalink
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The "winner" tag is very circumstantial and one could easily point to a singular lucky play here or there or the fact that Eli's never won a playoff game when the other team has scored more than 20 points and there's some validity to those arguments. At the same time, if I had a team in and I had to win a championship or else the Monstars would take over Earth, if I had to pick between the two, I'd probably go with Eli over Brees.
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Old 05-17-2013, 01:23 AM    (permalink
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In 9 years in the NFL, Eli hasn't had a single season where he was even a top 5 MVP candidate. Not elite. Every real elite QB (Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Brees), has not only been top 5 multiple times, but have also actually won the award too. He's had two incredibly good playoff runs that paid off with Super Bowls. That's great, but that alone doesn't make him elite. He's no doubt in the next group, but no, not elite.
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:03 AM    (permalink
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In 9 years in the NFL, Eli hasn't had a single season where he was even a top 5 MVP candidate. Not elite. Every real elite QB (Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Brees), has not only been top 5 multiple times, but have also actually won the award too. He's had two incredibly good playoff runs that paid off with Super Bowls. That's great, but that alone doesn't make him elite. He's no doubt in the next group, but no, not elite.
His play when the stakes are highest can't be quantified through some award though. And he's usually had Pro Bowl numbers the last few seasons despite not being in the MVP running. If there was a playoff MVP award he would have won it multiple times. Well, he's actually been Super Bowl MVP twice.
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:19 AM    (permalink
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His play when the stakes are highest can't be quantified through some award though. And he's usually had Pro Bowl numbers the last few seasons despite not being in the MVP running. If there was a playoff MVP award he would have won it multiple times. Well, he's actually been Super Bowl MVP twice.
Cute argument, but no. He's had two absolutely horrible (35 and 40 QB rating - say what you want about the stat, but that's terrible anyway you slice it) playoff games that got his team eliminated in their first game, plus one very mediocre game that got them out in the first round. Let's not pretend like he's been lights out in the playoffs. He's had some very nice games strung together, that have resulted in Super Bowls. That's great. For Giants fans, that's what you want. But as an individual he's been good in the playoffs but there have always been at least 5-7 QBs better than him every year in the regular season. That **** doesn't even touch elite. The farther I look into this the more I think Giants fans overrate Eli.
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:30 AM    (permalink
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Sportscenter just had the question on whether Donovan McNabb is a HOF or not since he is retiring as an Eagle.

I think he is more interesting than Warner. I'm not sure McNabb is 1st ballot, but I definitely think he belongs in there at some point.
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:33 AM    (permalink
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Sportscenter just had the question on whether Donovan McNabb is a HOF or not since he is retiring as an Eagle.

I think he is more interesting than Warner. I'm not sure McNabb is 1st ballot, but I definitely think he belongs in there at some point.
How?

If Warner doesn't get in the Hall of Fame then McNabb's chances are as good as JaMarcus Russell's.

2 MVPS to 0
1 Super Bowl win to 0
3 Super Bowl appearances to 1


If Warner gets in McNabb has a 1% shot. If Warner doesn't get in it's 0. Would be negative if that was possible.
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Old 05-17-2013, 02:42 AM    (permalink
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I'm sorry, but I would take McNabb over Warner every single time. I like Kurt a lot, and I think he had some awesome years, but so did Donovan and he never, ever had WR's to throw to like Kurt did.

That being said, he still put up over 37,000 yds and 263 combined TD's in his career. Both are more than Kurt (even if you take out the rushing TD"s, he still has more throwing TD's)

I think you are shorting McNabb a little bit just based off the SuperBowl win that Kurt achieved.
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Old 05-17-2013, 03:04 AM    (permalink
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I'm sorry, but I would take McNabb over Warner every single time. I like Kurt a lot, and I think he had some awesome years, but so did Donovan and he never, ever had WR's to throw to like Kurt did.

That being said, he still put up over 37,000 yds and 263 combined TD's in his career. Both are more than Kurt (even if you take out the rushing TD"s, he still has more throwing TD's)

I think you are shorting McNabb a little bit just based off the SuperBowl win that Kurt achieved.
Both of them are on the outside looking in for me, but it's no question that Warner should be ahead of McNabb.

Warner's best years were:

41 TDs, 4,353 yards
36 TDs, 4,830 yards
30 TDs, 4583 yards

while McNabb's best years were:

31 TDs, 3,875 yards
25 TDs, 3,233 yards
23 TDs, 3,916 yards

So all of Warner's best 3 years were better than any of McNabb's years. The only difference was that McNabb got a longer leash than Warner. I have no doubt hated on Warner for his time as a backup/placeholder, but he could have no doubt beaten McNabb's numbers had he been given the same opportunity as a starter. Add that to two MVPs plus a Super Bowl win, plus two Super Bowl appearances, and one Super Bowel MVP, and you are a complete moron to pick McNabb over Warner


Zero. Absolutely Zero argument for McNabb over Warner. Even the usual great WR argument that I usually hold over Warner doesn't apply here as he beats the **** out of McNabb so badly in everything else.
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Old 05-17-2013, 07:19 AM    (permalink
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I HATE that you started this thread NYG.

It was based off the BBI is McNabb a HOFer. It got my thinking of how many future HOfers are currently playing. Clearly, it has degenerated into elite vs not which digresses from the crux of the thread. I wanted to know about the HOF.
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