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View Poll Results: Is Channing Frye the most influential NBA PLAYER EVER?
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:09 PM    (permalink
BallerT1215
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Originally Posted by comahan View Post
Fun fact, the top 11 all time PER seasons are from only three players: Wilt (3 times including #1 and #2), Jordan (4 times), and LeBron (4 times).
Everytime LeBron enters a new record, the list is always composed of Wilt and Jordan. And then a mix between the 4th player of Bird, Magic, Kareem and Big O.
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:11 PM    (permalink
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Win Shares is another one you can look at, they have total win shares, offensive win shares, defensive win shares, and win shares per 48 minutes.

Overall win shares leaders this year:
1-L.James, 2-k.Durant, 3-C.Paul, 4-J.Harden, 5-R.Westbrook, 6-M.Gasol, 7-S.Curry, 8-K.Bryant, 9-D.Williams, 10-B.Griffin

Also, Tyson Chandler finished 4th in WS/48 behind LeBron/Durant/Paul.
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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I think it has a place in basketball. I think basketball is a lot easier to quantify than football at least.

Not saying it's an exact science, but there's a place in statistical analysis in basketball.

I think to win consistently, you need to score a certain # of points per game, rebound a certain # per game, block a certain # of shots per game, turn it over a certain # (or less) per game, and hold opponents to a certain FG % per game.

We have all this data available to us. Some number cruncher can crunch them all together and create a system to evaluate players and their value on the open market based on these numbers, and put together a team to reach those numbers.

Someone needs to try it at least. What are the Bucks gonna lose by trying it? They suck regardless. Might as well try something different.
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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Why can't we have more basketball discussions like this? I'm actually learning something from you guys.
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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Why can't we have more basketball discussions like this? I'm actually learning something from you guys.
Your mind is more clear now that the Knicks have been eliminated.
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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Because it places too much of an emphasis on rewarding players with high usage rates.
What do you mean? I thought PER analyzes efficiency? Wouldn't your usage rate be factored into that?
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Old 05-20-2013, 02:29 PM    (permalink
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Your mind is more clear now that the Knicks have been eliminated.
Clear mind. Broken heart.

</3
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Old 05-20-2013, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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i'm not a big fan of using "moneyball" and metrics in basketball, they lead to a lot of cool numbers and stats but I'm kinda meh on them.

There is just SO much to be said for cohesion, team defense and coaching. There really is.

Then again when I said this last year and it was pure talent vs system/coaching/cohesion in the conference finals, the talent prevailed, so I looked silly.

But that's just always been my philosophy. That's how I want to coach. The way the Pacers play gets my dick hard. Especially with Hibbert being awesome. Same with the Griz, but they need a perimeter scorer in the worst way
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BTW, if it's 3rd and 97... I'm throwing a screen pass to Brian Leonard and he will convert.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:14 PM    (permalink
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Yea you can't look TOO much into numbers with Basketball. They're great to have, and they can tell you a lot, but they can't tell you everything like they can in baseball.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:15 PM    (permalink
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Shane Battier would be the best moneyball player of all time in basketball.

Just saying...
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:20 PM    (permalink
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What do you mean? I thought PER analyzes efficiency? Wouldn't your usage rate be factored into that?
It rewards inefficient shooting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_...blems_With_PER
You can also see the equation that is used to calculate PER, it's long.

In any scenario, using just stats or just scouting is a silly formula. A combination is necessary with everyone understanding the tenets and purpose of both.

The big issue I have with PER is that some bench players may have higher numbers but possibly wouldn't be as successful with a higher USG or more minutes. The guys who take more money to start for another team and end up being a below average starter rather than above average 6th man. I think we all imagine this is what JR Smith would be.

The other issue is that PER is not great for defense. It only takes up the counting stats where guys like JaVale would score well because of blocks, however he is not a great defender and has lapses and can rotate slowly. Marc Gasol wouldn't rank as highly in the defensive stats as he should because he is in the right place shutting down an offensive opportunity, the same way a front 7 is most successful if they maintain gap control.

I also would claim it's not perfect for rebounding either, because I think rebounding is partially a team skill over a personal skill. Some guys get a bunch of rebounds, but he could pad them Humphries/Evans style if he has no other guy to grab a few boards.

PER also has a few gaps in offensive acumen. If a player makes passes, cuts, and picks that open up a good shot they get no credit. Players like Shane Battier seem to make the right plays, but don't show up on counting stats.

Scotty was talking about cohesion playing well together and that's where it is fun to look at a site like 82games and see the +/- for 5 man units.
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213NYK2.HTM
That is the knicks and the top 5 man unit was Felton/Kidd/JR/Melo/Chandler. This is when Kidd was still making 3s.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:21 PM    (permalink
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Shane Battier would be the best moneyball player of all time in basketball.

Just saying...
Dennis Rodman.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:22 PM    (permalink
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Dennis Rodman.
Damn it!

I was hoping his post-Bulls days would bring down his average.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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Damn it!

I was hoping his post-Bulls days would bring down his average.
Well he only played a combined 35 games post-Chicago, so there's not much to go on there. And even then, he averaged 12.3 rebounds in 29.9 minutes in those games with LA and Dallas.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:25 PM    (permalink
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Friendly reminder that Tracy McGrady is going to make the NBA finals before Carmelo Anthony.
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The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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Well he only played a combined 35 games post-Chicago, so there's not much to go on there. And even then, he averaged 12.3 rebounds in 29.9 minutes in those games with LA and Dallas.
The Worm wins.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:28 PM    (permalink
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Friendly reminder that Tracy McGrady is going to make the NBA finals before Carmelo Anthony.
Grizz in 6.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:31 PM    (permalink
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Battier has been great though, elite perimeter defender that can hit 3's at an efficient clip. So hard to find. Imagine if Tony Allen had a good 3P shot in his arsenal, that was Battier in his prime.
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Old 05-20-2013, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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Battier has been great though, elite perimeter defender that can hit 3's at an efficient clip. So hard to find. Imagine if Tony Allen had a good 3P shot in his arsenal, that was Battier in his prime.
Plus he can play multiple positions with how strong he is and his basketball IQ is out of this world.

Just a solid overall player and always a winner since Duke.
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Old 05-20-2013, 05:20 PM    (permalink
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Clear mind. Broken heart.

</3
The Knicks problems (just in my opinion):

- Poor ball movement
Once the ball touches Melo's hands, don't expect a pass unless he's in mid-air, realizes he doesn't have a shot and dumps it off to an unexpecting player.

- Too predictable on offense
It's majority isolation ball. Why isn't there more PnR?

- No answer for Hibbert
If you can't stop him defensively, then you have to attack him and get him in foul trouble. Part of that reason is Chandler lacks an offensive repitoire.

- Poor usage of Steve Novak

Fixes:

- Fire Mike Woodson; Hire Jerry Sloan
Sloan turned down Milwaukee because he says he wants to win now. Ask Stockton and Malone how many variations of the PnR they ran. Sloan has peices in place in NY to make his system flourish.

That single move could be all that NY needs. Get Kidd doing what he's good at. It's like someone hired him to be a Magician and took away his magic hat. Stoudemire has flourished his entire pre-Knick career running off pick and rolls. More set offensive plays. Novak = Hornacek. Sloan won't put up with JR Smith. Wouldn't want him back. Knicks need less thug (bye bye to K-Mart too) and more focus on players who put basketball first and are hungry to prove themselves.

- If Melo is going to play the 4 so much, find a more dynamic backup SF to play alongside him. Not just a sharp shooter (Novak/Copeland).

- Develop a young PG.
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Old 05-20-2013, 05:44 PM    (permalink
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Since I have the Knicks on my mind, how does this sound?

Amare Stoudemire ($21.6M in 2014, $23.4M in 2015)
2013 1st round pick

for

Hedo Turkoglu ($12M in 2014 or he can be waived ($6M guaranteed))
Glen Davis ($6.4M in 2014, $6.6M in 2015)
E'Twan Moore ($700K in 2014)
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Old 05-20-2013, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by D-Unit View Post
Since I have the Knicks on my mind, how does this sound?

Amare Stoudemire ($21.6M in 2014, $23.4M in 2015)
2013 1st round pick

for

Hedo Turkoglu ($12M in 2014 or he can be waived ($6M guaranteed))
Glen Davis ($6.4M in 2014, $6.6M in 2015)
E'Twan Moore ($700K in 2014)
I am pretty sure the Knicks cant trade their 1st round pick since they don't have one next year.
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Old 05-20-2013, 06:19 PM    (permalink
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I'm on my phone, so this will be short. Basically, you are wildly overreacting to Chandler playing sub par in the playoffs due to injury.
Meh, I disagree. I've personally had this opinion long before the playoffs. Also keep in mind he's an injury prone player so I do not use injuries as an excuse for him. He's not worth what he's getting paid. Maybe in today's overpriced big man market he's getting what he's worth, but he's just not that special at all. He's inept offensively except for when teammates set him up and he is a solid rebounder/defender. Other than that, he does not contribute much. People just fell in love with the whole "he's a defensive leader" non-sense. That's all fine and great but defensive leadership comes from the coach and he is not worth his salary.

Not to mention we blew any chance of adding another really talented player by signing him. You don't need a good or even great center to win in the NBA.

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Why can't we have more basketball discussions like this? I'm actually learning something from you guys.
Probably because you're not trying to toll and just having normal discussions.

My thing is with Woodson. As I've always stated, I'm not a huge fan of his coaching. He's not the worst, but I just don't think he's very good. Iso ball has to stop. Plus his inability to manage who plays and who doesn't is absurd. I understand Copeland is a turn style on defense, but bring him in for a few minutes and let him take a couple shots. And when JR is being a complete ******* idiot SIT HIM DOWN. Stop letting him jack up 900 shots. That killed this team. We could have put away the Pacers if he would give somebody else a damn chance to shoot the ball.
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Old 05-20-2013, 06:23 PM    (permalink
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no plan for success should ever include jason kidd or amar'e at this point
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Old 05-20-2013, 06:27 PM    (permalink
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no plan for success should ever include jason kidd or amar'e at this point
No questions from me there. Kidd is beyond atrocious. Hated that signing. Dude better never see a minute again for us. Amar'e...we're pretty much stuck with. Hopefully he can stay healthy (as if that would ever happen) and he can be our new sixth man off the bench that provides scoring.
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