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Old 05-24-2013, 10:00 AM    (permalink
Rosebud
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Well clearly Barry should've been trucking defensive tackles if he were actually any good.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:10 AM    (permalink
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Can we get PFF to watch all of his tape and then tell us how good he was? Then I'll be able to determine whether or not I'd want him on my team.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:15 AM    (permalink
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I didn't read his arguments, so I'm going to juxtapose my own consensus on what he should be saying and then call all you guys out for being ignorant ass holes.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:19 PM    (permalink
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I wouldn't want him either. He'd take all my touches...

Can you imagine if he had played rugby? Give it to Barry, take a knee and play with your cauliflower ears.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:23 PM    (permalink
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I didn't read his arguments, so I'm going to juxtapose my own consensus on what he should be saying and then call all you guys out for being ignorant ass holes.
Poor Justin, he just can't pull off my charisma.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:35 PM    (permalink
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Trying to compare today's pro football with a decade or so earlier, is just a huge waste of time. Young people today don't have a clue to how football was played under a completely different set of rules, where running the ball equated to being able to win games and throwing the ball, the way QB's do today, with rules designed to make passing the ball ridiculously easy, was almost impossible to make you a champion. Ask Dan Marino!!

What the poster completely fails to notice, is that Barry Sanders forced defenses to account for him on every play, especially since Detroit was very weak at passing the ball. Teams played 8 or 9 men in the box against Barry and if they had every had a franchise QB, he would have had a field day throwing the ball against a defense that had to protect itself against Sanders on every snap.

If Sanders had played with a franchise QB, there is no telling how much yardage he would have put up against defenses that had to play him with only 7 players in the box.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:35 PM    (permalink
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Eight pages and three months later, ChiFan24 still has my favorite post in this thread.
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:08 PM    (permalink
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This whole thread is stupid. Really doesn't need to be bumped again. The OP is ********. You don't argue with them. You pat them on the head and give them another go-gurt.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:42 PM    (permalink
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LOL Go-gurt.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:59 PM    (permalink
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This whole thread is stupid. Really doesn't need to be bumped again. The OP is ********. You don't argue with them. You pat them on the head and give them another go-gurt.
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Old 05-24-2013, 11:34 PM    (permalink
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What are all these 'rules' that make passing the ball so much easier today?? DBs still mug WRs. You can't hit a QB in the head anymore but that's the only major rule change I can think of.

People talk like DBs never got called for pass interference before 2005.
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Old 05-25-2013, 02:07 AM    (permalink
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What are all these 'rules' that make passing the ball so much easier today?? DBs still mug WRs. You can't hit a QB in the head anymore but that's the only major rule change I can think of.

People talk like DBs never got called for pass interference before 2005.
You have to be kidding, in past decades it took real guts to go over the middle to catch a ball, Safeties like Jack Tatum would take the head shot every time and that is what most Safeties did to receivers. Probably 50% of todays receivers couldn't have even played in the old NFL, they wouldn't have the guts to survive the pain and the concussions that followed.

Gee, there is a 5 yard no touch rule in today's NFL after which WR's get occasionally bumped, in the old bump and run system, WR's were mugged all the way down the field right from the line of scrimmage, many of today's WR's wouldn't have the skill to beat the old bump and run and even get off the LOS, the 5 yard cushion gives them a chance. What you describe as a mugging today doesn't come close to how WR's were mugged in past generations, it's not even close to what an old time WR had to put up with.

Then, there is the decade where DB's used stick-um on their hands and it was almost impossible to break free which brought in tear away jerseys.

The NFL has strict rules today about what a DB can do and believe me they have made it a lot more difficult for a DB to bump a WR after 5 yards. They know the so called fans want to see high scores and have made it ridiculously easy for WR's to get open.

I'm not even going to go into how the rules have changed for DLmen on how they can hit an OLman, let's just say it is apples and oranges from past decades and saying that the rule for QB's is that you cannot just hit them in the head is not quite accurate. You cannot touch their legs or head and you had better put on the breaks a lot quicker than previous generations or you will be called for roughing the passer everyday of the week.

Then there are the rules governing how OL can use their hands, in past decades OLmen had to keep their hands between their shoulders when blocking, they weren't allowed to use their hands in anyway outside their shoulders, a rule change that made it much easier to pass block today, when OLmen can use their hands anywhere they want as long as they don't hold.

The end result of rule changes have made life ridiculously easy for WR's and QB's and I'm not saying that for Safety's sake, some of the new rules weren't necessary, I think they are quite proper with what we know about concussions but face it, the NFL brought in most of the rule changes before they were facing thousands of lawsuits from retired players over concussions and how the medical staff of the NFL handled them, they brought in the rule changes to make more money by providing the fans with a wide open game, they systematically reduced the ability of defenses and DB's in particular, to cover WR's effectively and completely changed the way football is played.
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Old 05-25-2013, 03:38 AM    (permalink
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I'm just trying to find out how far people are going back when they say it used to be harder to play QB and WR in the NFL.

There's a five yard rule now for WRs past which a DB isn't supposed to contact them, but it's not like in the '80s and '90s corners were punching and holding WRs all the way down the field. A good WR even 25+ years ago could beat a DB at the snap the same way they do now and force a corner to turn and run.

Agree that safeties can't unload on the heads of WRs going across the middle, but it's not like every reception made by a WR back then was a 15 yard curl or slant route with a safety just waiting there for them.

The Deacon Jones rule(Dlineman can't club Olineman in the head) was established in the '80s, so that hasn't really changed.

Stickum was supposed to help DBs get picks, not really slow down WRs downfield. And it was banned in the '80s.

I just think it's overstated when fans decry how it's sooo much easier for QBs today to put up monster stats compared to previous generations.

I'm trying to figure out when this was exactly when it was so much harder.

I think there's been a change in offensive philosophy more than actual NFL rules that's really benefited the passing game.

HCs to a man believe you win games in the modern NFL by scoring more points not by having the best defense in the league. Look at Belichick. He started as a defensive specialist who became someone obsessed with scoring a point a minute.

Before the '80s and the implementation of the short passing game innovated by Walsh's WCO, given that passing the ball for a ton of yards in the NFL was much harder.
But once teams began including elements of the WCO in their own passing attacks, I think that's what really opened up the scoring and huge stats by NFL QBs.

I think HCs started to realize it's easier to pick up a first down on three intermediate to short passes than it is to run your RB three times in a row.
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Old 05-25-2013, 04:52 AM    (permalink
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I think it's more that Bill Belichick sees the rules themselves as another potential weapon, however he can manage to take advantage of their existence.
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Old 05-26-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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The short passing game became the norm after the head hunting rules came into effect, before that few WR's would even venture over the middle of the field and the rules concerning DB's and how they can cover a WR were clearly defined by the NFL, before that, it was open season on WR's. The NFL made the rules governing coverage extremely liberal so they could make passing the ball and scoring way more wide open. It isn't just the rules, it is how referees were instructed to enforce them that opened up the game and forever changed the way the game is played today. Coaches aren't fools and quickly ascertained what was now possible under the new system and especially the rules concerning contact with the QB by the defense. If in any generation before the current one, a QB had tried to throw the ball 700 times like Detroit did last season, a QB couldn't have survived with the physical punishment he would have received, although Dan Marino is the one exception but he was 6'4", 235 lbs. and was lucky to be playing in the AFC which was clearly a weaker conference back then. I think you are underestimating the impact of the contact with the QB rules that are now in force.
Even with the WCO, San Fran still had a 1000 yard rusher to keep defenses honest.
The simple fact is that the NFL wanted higher scores and did what was necessary to assure that this is what would happen. They wanted their QB's to be bigger than life as part of their showcase for TV.
Just as a note, the introduction of astro turf and domed stadiums also played a major part in opening up the game and forever making the RB an after thought. Muddy fields were no longer a major factor where passing the ball was practically impossible.
You'd be amazed at how much the rules have changed even for RB's. I believe as late as the early 50's, a RB had to be stopped completely as in rugby where football developed from. A RB could still get up after a tackle and continue to run if he wasn't piled on and unable to do so, that is how much football has changed.
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Old 05-28-2013, 01:34 AM    (permalink
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What the poster completely fails to notice, is that Barry Sanders forced defenses to account for him on every play, especially since Detroit was very weak at passing the ball. Teams played 8 or 9 men in the box against Barry and if they had every had a franchise QB, he would have had a field day throwing the ball against a defense that had to protect itself against Sanders on every snap.

If Sanders had played with a franchise QB, there is no telling how much yardage he would have put up against defenses that had to play him with only 7 players in the box.
This kind of reminds me of "X player is constantly double teamed" arguments, which are always BS.

If you watch that Lions/Cowboys game I analyzed, the Cowboys didn't start loading the box until the Lions were running out the clock.

And when has a great running back ever allowed a quarterback to "have a field day?" When did the Bears' quarterbacks have a field day with Walter Payton? How about with Emmitt Smith? The Cowboys' passing game was more of a compliment to their running game than the driving force behind what they did, and it basically consisted of, "where's Michael Irvin?"

That's the thing with great running backs and runnning backs who are considered great. Coaches feel the pressure to give them carries.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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Erik Kramer had "a field day" in the 1991 playoffs when Dallas stacked the box to stop Barry. Without Sanders, Kramer is nowhere near as successful that day. Dallas were not going to allow Sanders to beat them. They were giving away the pass to Detroit all throughout the game and the Lions simply took advantage with Kramer's career day. It was reminiscent of The Jordan Rules when the Pistons would try and shutdown MJ which forced his less accomplished teammates to step up their game.

Payton's QBs were simply not good enough to have a field day, just like Sanders for most of his career. With better QBs both players would've reached even greater success.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:56 AM    (permalink
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What are all these 'rules' that make passing the ball so much easier today?? DBs still mug WRs. You can't hit a QB in the head anymore but that's the only major rule change I can think of.

People talk like DBs never got called for pass interference before 2005.
2007 was the turning point. 2002-2006 (using 2002 because that was Houson's first season), the NFL averaged 105,623 passing yards, 674 TDs, 523 INTs, 6.36 YPA, and a 59.5% completion percentage From 2007-2012, the NFL averaged 113203 passing yards, 721 TDs, 501 INTs, 6.57 YPA, and a 60.7% completion percentage.

So starting in 2007, the NFL started averaging over teams worth of passing yards and TDs while having 1.5 teams worth of INTs fewer. The completed a higher percentage of balls for more yards each throw.

Was it rule changes that lead to this increase? I'll let you be the judge. But the numbers show that in the last six seasons, it has become easier to throw the ball.
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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In 2004 illegal contact was given more scrutiny by officials. IMHO that's the worst rule in the entire NFL rule-book. Considering in the playoffs versus some teams you can drag people to the ground for no call while other times a hand-check 30 yards down the field on the opposite side of play is illegal contact.

Worst rule ever. Blame everything on it. :P
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Old 06-10-2013, 02:21 AM    (permalink
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I still see a lot of mugging past 5 yards and kill shots by safeties that never get called. From the way the new rules sound, they should be called every time, but they're not called the majority of the time. Would Jerry Rice be putting up 2500 yards a season in this league or something? Would Calvin Johnson struggle to break 1k in the 70's and 80's? Would Brady struggle to get 25 TD's back then? IDK, I think as Funbuncher said, the passing game has advanced and so has the game in general. Rule changes might be some of it, but I don't think it has as much of an impact as some believe. The game is still violent across the middle, the CB's still have their hands all over the WR's, I just don't see as big of a change except for the verbiage of the rules (not so much the enforcement) and the passing game evolution. Could be wrong though.
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Old 06-11-2013, 01:59 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Guru View Post
I still see a lot of mugging past 5 yards and kill shots by safeties that never get called. From the way the new rules sound, they should be called every time, but they're not called the majority of the time. Would Jerry Rice be putting up 2500 yards a season in this league or something? Would Calvin Johnson struggle to break 1k in the 70's and 80's? Would Brady struggle to get 25 TD's back then? IDK, I think as Funbuncher said, the passing game has advanced and so has the game in general. Rule changes might be some of it, but I don't think it has as much of an impact as some believe. The game is still violent across the middle, the CB's still have their hands all over the WR's, I just don't see as big of a change except for the verbiage of the rules (not so much the enforcement) and the passing game evolution. Could be wrong though.
Ever seen the controversial pass interference calls towards the end of the 1983 NFC Championship game between the 49ers and Redskins? The 49ers were in an absolute uproar over those, and the media melted down over how bad they were.

Yet when you actually watch the plays, they would be no-brainer pass interference calls in today's game. Just clear as day in the modern game.
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Old 06-11-2013, 05:30 AM    (permalink
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Ever seen the controversial pass interference calls towards the end of the 1983 NFC Championship game between the 49ers and Redskins? The 49ers were in an absolute uproar over those, and the media melted down over how bad they were.

Yet when you actually watch the plays, they would be no-brainer pass interference calls in today's game. Just clear as day in the modern game.
Those non-calls were no worse than the muggings Ty Law committed against Marvin Harrison and the Rams' WRs during the Patriots SB runs.
A missed call doesn't mean PI wasn't called, because it still was in the 1970s/1980s.
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