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Old 05-23-2013, 04:50 PM    (permalink
MassNole
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He improvised like crazy. Numbers dropped vs. Better defenses because he couldn't get away with it nearly as much. When it comes to the NFL he will get killed doing that as much as he does. His mechanics even for a freshman were awful. His size leaves him susceptible to injury.
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Old 05-23-2013, 04:53 PM    (permalink
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They won the game scoring 29 points, 15.5 points less than their season average and needed a game clinching intercept inside the 10 to seal it. I credit the defense with that more than the offense. A&M got the lead because their defense held Alabama's offense to 14.7 points below their season average. Nonetheless that is the only good defense he played well against, vs. LSU and Florida he was awful and didn't fair much better against a solid but not great Ole Miss defense/
This is flawed. Alabama gave up 28 points at home the entire season if you exclude the A&M game. The offense scoring 29 was far more impressive than holding 'Bama to 24.

A&M scored more at B.D. than the rest of 'Bama's home schedule combined.
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Old 05-23-2013, 05:00 PM    (permalink
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You mean that fearsome home schedule of Western Kentucky, Florida Atlantic, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Western Carolina, and Auburn?
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Old 05-23-2013, 05:28 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by MassNole View Post
He improvised like crazy.
Not a bad thing in itself.

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Numbers dropped vs. Better defenses because he couldn't get away with it nearly as much.
As has been said, and as would be expected of any player.

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When it comes to the NFL he will get killed doing that as much as he does. His mechanics even for a freshman were awful. His size leaves him susceptible to injury.
He's good at avoiding hits, and I don't think his mechanics were actually that bad; he just threw off-balance and at odd angles a lot because he was usually on the run as he was throwing. It's not just a size thing as far as injuries are concerned; it's the way he plays. If you want a runner whose style opens him up to a lot of injuries, you're talking about someone like Robert Griffin, who looks like he loses sight of defenders while he's running, and that's why he seems to get creamed a couple of times a game. There are other running QBs who are much better at avoiding the big hit, and I see Manziel as one of them.

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You mean that fearsome home schedule of Western Kentucky, Florida Atlantic, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Western Carolina, and Auburn?
So you're faulting him for having good games against bad defenses and playing like a freshman. It's already been said many times that he can't expect to run wild in the NFL - this gets said about every mobile quarterback, but it hasn't stopped players like RGIII, Kaepernick, Russell Wilson, Cam Newton, and others from having success in the NFL. Their coaches have molded their offenses to fit the skills of those quarterbacks as well as to protect them. (except maybe Shanahan.) Why can't someone do that for Manziel? It seems like you're beginning with the idea that Manziel isn't a finished product (which is true), and trying to argue that he therefore won't be a finished product. You're doing more stereotyping than analysis.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:18 PM    (permalink
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Arm strength will be nothing to worry about with him. He has plenty of arm strength - this criticism is just something all the lemmings out there hear and just repeat until it becomes "truth". The kid is 20 and will only get stronger and develop more. His innate abilities to improvise, his open field running ability, sense and avoid passrushers and his vision are freakish. He is the same size as Mike Vick and is probably the most dynamic QB since Vick. He is much further along in regards to his feel for the passing game and accuracy.

I saw him make plenty of big time throws - i'm not buying the whole faux arm strength argument that people are just throwing out there.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:32 PM    (permalink
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I hope he sticks around for another couple years. He only has 1 year of starting and was great. He has a whole lot of development left.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:41 PM    (permalink
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You mean that fearsome home schedule of Western Kentucky, Florida Atlantic, Ole Miss, Mississippi State, Western Carolina, and Auburn?
Yes, whom 'Bama held to less than 5 PPG.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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Arm strength will be nothing to worry about with him. He has plenty of arm strength - this criticism is just something all the lemmings out there hear and just repeat until it becomes "truth". The kid is 20 and will only get stronger and develop more. His innate abilities to improvise, his open field running ability, sense and avoid passrushers and his vision are freakish. He is the same size as Mike Vick and is probably the most dynamic QB since Vick. He is much further along in regards to his feel for the passing game and accuracy.

I saw him make plenty of big time throws - i'm not buying the whole faux arm strength argument that people are just throwing out there.
He's not the same size as Vick. He may be at some point.
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Old 05-24-2013, 08:53 AM    (permalink
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JOhnny Manziel is the Matt Barkley of 2013.

All-Pro caliber LT leaves via the draft? Let's see how he adjusts. Barkley was coming off a stellar 2012 season in which he looked like a top-5 pick. Without Kalil anchoring the OL, he became a 4th round pick. I could see the same thing happening with Manziel this year.

Remember, good OLs makes RBs/QBs look alot better than they are, and bad OLs make RBs/QBs look alot worse than they are.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:27 AM    (permalink
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JOhnny Manziel is the Matt Barkley of 2013.

All-Pro caliber LT leaves via the draft? Let's see how he adjusts. Barkley was coming off a stellar 2012 season in which he looked like a top-5 pick. Without Kalil anchoring the OL, he became a 4th round pick. I could see the same thing happening with Manziel this year.

Remember, good OLs makes RBs/QBs look alot better than they are, and bad OLs make RBs/QBs look alot worse than they are.
Jake Matthews, who I feel is even better than Joeckel, will be switching over to left tackle so even if that reasoning was valid then Manziel will hold up just fine.
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Old 05-24-2013, 09:33 AM    (permalink
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Jake Matthews, who I feel is even better than Joeckel, will be switching over to left tackle so even if that reasoning was valid then Manziel will hold up just fine.
I definitely agree and think Matthews will be a stud. And if anything, Manziel's type of play makes it tougher on his line than the plus side of having two great OTs helping his.

If Manziel's first read isn't there he isn't the type of guy yet who will sit patiently in the pocket and go through his progressions.

While he may still be going through them he tends to shift laterally to where he feels pressure may not be coming which can make it really hard on his linemen. Then if nobody is open within a few seconds it become sandlot football.

Against Louisiana Tech (I believe) Matthews gave up a pressure which resulted in an INT because Manziel basically ran into the rusher. There wasn't much Matthews could do. He rid the guy well past the pocket but Manziel being Manziel tried to make something happen and killed the offense on that series.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:39 AM    (permalink
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Just remember that last year he had a Top-5 (in the nation) LT and a Top-5 RT. Guys like that can make any QB look really good.

It will be interesting to see if he struggles without elite bookend OTs on both sides. Say what you want about "improvisation" but you can look much better improvising when both of your OTs are grinding any edge rushers into the dirt.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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Just remember that last year he had a Top-5 (in the nation) LT and a Top-5 RT. Guys like that can make any QB look really good.

It will be interesting to see if he struggles without elite bookend OTs on both sides. Say what you want about "improvisation" but you can look much better improvising when both of your OTs are grinding any edge rushers into the dirt.
It's gonna be tough when he gets to the NFL and Brandon Graham is chasing after him.
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Old 05-24-2013, 10:58 AM    (permalink
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It's gonna be tough when he gets to the NFL and Brandon Graham is chasing after him.
I'm going to bump all of these comments when Brandon Graham is in the running for Defensive Player of the Year sometime in the next 2-3 years.
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Old 05-24-2013, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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I'm going to bump all of these comments when Brandon Graham is in the running for Defensive Player of the Year sometime in the next 2-3 years.
There is nothing more childish than that.
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Old 05-24-2013, 01:47 PM    (permalink
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JOhnny Manziel is the Matt Barkley of 2013.

All-Pro caliber LT leaves via the draft? Let's see how he adjusts. Barkley was coming off a stellar 2012 season in which he looked like a top-5 pick. Without Kalil anchoring the OL, he became a 4th round pick. I could see the same thing happening with Manziel this year.

Remember, good OLs makes RBs/QBs look alot better than they are, and bad OLs make RBs/QBs look alot worse than they are.
Terrible comparison. Barkley is a pure drop back QB. Manziel will be fine due to his athletic ability and style of play. Barkley's playcaller was also Kiffin so you need to take that into consideration. Sumlin seems to have a more even keel and is not the same type of ego as Kiffin is. Losing Swope is probably the biggest loss Manziel will have to deal with.
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Old 05-24-2013, 05:40 PM    (permalink
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Johnny Manziel is going to be the next version of Tim Tebow. Great College QB and football player. However, his game does not translate to that of a starting NFL QB caliber. He plays a sandlot type style and his arm strength is "so so". It's not good, its not terrible, it might be around average. Uses his legs a lot and relys on them to make plays.

Listen, just because this guy is a great college football star, doesn't always translate to the pros. It's tought because like Tebow, very likeable guy, but just don't see him being a starting NFL QB.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:35 PM    (permalink
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Johnny Manziel is going to be the next version of Tim Tebow. Great College QB and football player. However, his game does not translate to that of a starting NFL QB caliber. He plays a sandlot type style and his arm strength is "so so". It's not good, its not terrible, it might be around average. Uses his legs a lot and relys on them to make plays.

Listen, just because this guy is a great college football star, doesn't always translate to the pros. It's tought because like Tebow, very likeable guy, but just don't see him being a starting NFL QB.
Tebow's "issues" where with his throwing motion and accuracy. Manziel does not have these concerns.
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Old 05-24-2013, 07:45 PM    (permalink
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Barkley was coming off a stellar 2012 season in which he looked like a top-5 pick. Without Kalil anchoring the OL, he became a 4th round pick.
Yea, that's why he's a 4th round pick. Not because of any of his limitations as a QB
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Old 05-24-2013, 11:49 PM    (permalink
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People IMO are severely underestimating Manziel's athletic ability and the fact he's going to be an effective scrambler in the NFL too.
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Old 05-25-2013, 02:15 AM    (permalink
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I think he might survive because of his scrambling ability, it is definitely top notch and that alone can make up for a below average arm. It will be real interesting to see how he does as a pro.
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Old 05-25-2013, 07:43 AM    (permalink
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He will be a great QB in the NFL QBs don't bust like they used to.
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Old 05-25-2013, 04:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Kyle472 View Post
He will be a great QB in the NFL QBs don't bust like they used to.


I guess they don't if you just ignore all of them that do.

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Old 05-25-2013, 04:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Iamcanadian View Post
I think he might survive because of his scrambling ability, it is definitely top notch and that alone can make up for a below average arm. It will be real interesting to see how he does as a pro.
Thing is he won't be able to scramble in the NFL like he can in college, defenses are much too disciplined and good for it too happen.
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Old 05-25-2013, 04:38 PM    (permalink
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He will be a great QB in the NFL QBs don't bust like they used to.
top QBs anyways....I don't think Manziel will be picked that high. More like Colt McCoy territory. Using the 2012 QB class as a barometer is not the norm by the way, we never see that kinda rookie success from QB classes ever and probably never will in a long time.
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