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Old 05-25-2013, 02:24 AM    (permalink
Iamcanadian
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Originally Posted by descendency View Post
I hope so, because stupid teams taking players that don't belong in the early part of the draft is how good teams get very good players.

If it weren't for the Bills taking EJ Manuel and the Browns taking Barkevious Mingo, how else would guys like Jarvis Jones have fallen to the Steelers.
While I agree that bad GM's make life easy for solid GM's who chuckle with joy every time a bad GM makes a poor pick, Jarvis Jones cannot play for most teams in the NFL. He is lucky that the Steelers will only ask him to rush the passer and won't ask him to drop into coverage, because all he can do is be a pass rusher. He could never play for a 4-3 team because they ask their LB's to drop into coverage and a lot of 3-4 teams also expect their LB's to drop into coverage.

Jarvis Jones fell in the draft because he is a one dimensional LBer.
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Old 05-25-2013, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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I think Tajh Boyd is a little overrated right now, the most impressive thing about him on tape is his ability to escape pressure and gain positive yards on the ground with a combination of speed and power. Aside from that, I wasn't blown away with his passing ability. He could go in the first round a la E.J. Manuel, but I think whether or not he's earned a spot there based on his play thus far is debatable. We might see him decline as a senior without DeAndre Hopkins, Brandon Ford, and Andre Ellington, too.
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Old 05-25-2013, 11:50 AM    (permalink
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I think Tajh Boyd is a little overrated right now, the most impressive thing about him on tape is his ability to escape pressure and gain positive yards on the ground with a combination of speed and power. Aside from that, I wasn't blown away with his passing ability. He could go in the first round a la E.J. Manuel, but I think whether or not he's earned a spot there based on his play thus far is debatable. We might see him decline as a senior without DeAndre Hopkins, Brandon Ford, and Andre Ellington, too.
Lets be honest, if EJ Manuel gets to be a first round QB about half the college QBs have a shot in that crapshoot that is the draft
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Old 05-25-2013, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
I think Tajh Boyd is a little overrated right now, the most impressive thing about him on tape is his ability to escape pressure and gain positive yards on the ground with a combination of speed and power. Aside from that, I wasn't blown away with his passing ability. He could go in the first round a la E.J. Manuel, but I think whether or not he's earned a spot there based on his play thus far is debatable. We might see him decline as a senior without DeAndre Hopkins, Brandon Ford, and Andre Ellington, too.
Agree. Not getting the Boyd hype at this point. My guess is he could be the 6th QB taken behind: Teddy, Manziel, Hundley, Mariota and Fales.
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Old 05-25-2013, 01:45 PM    (permalink
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I'm not really qualified to talk about any of the quarterbacks in depth at this point, but based on a cursory examination, I'd say that Bridgewater is clearly ahead of Boyd, and I may list Manziel ahead of Boyd, too. I only watched a little bit of Fales and was not as impressed as I thought I'd be, whereas I liked Mariota more than I expected to. I can't really comment on Hundley.
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Old 05-25-2013, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Matthew Jones View Post
I'm not really qualified to talk about any of the quarterbacks in depth at this point, but based on a cursory examination, I'd say that Bridgewater is clearly ahead of Boyd, and I may list Manziel ahead of Boyd, too. I only watched a little bit of Fales and was not as impressed as I thought I'd be, whereas I liked Mariota more than I expected to. I can't really comment on Hundley.
I'd say you aren't alone. A lot could change in a year.
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Old 05-26-2013, 10:54 AM    (permalink
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I'd say you aren't alone. A lot could change in a year.
It always does, some QB's have the light go on with added experience while others just don't seem to grow at all. Talking about them now is fun but it is far to early to be definitive.
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Old 05-29-2013, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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For example, Jadeveon Clowney isn't even as good of a prospect coming out of college as Courtney Brown or Julius Peppers.

Brown was basically a bust in the NFL and Peppers has had a very good career, but I don't think he's really been a franchise-changing player like an elite QB would be.
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Old 05-29-2013, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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For example, Jadeveon Clowney isn't even as good of a prospect coming out of college as Courtney Brown or Julius Peppers.

Brown was basically a bust in the NFL and Peppers has had a very good career, but I don't think he's really been a franchise-changing player like an elite QB would be.

Maybe Clowney isn't the prospect Peppers was, but he surely is every bit the equal is not more highly regarded than Courtney Brown.

People expect Clowney to show up for the 2014 combine standing 6'6 and weighing close to 275#, which is more Peppers territory and much bigger than Brown. Also Brown busted because of chronic injuries, not ability,(like most stud Penn State prospects ).
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Old 05-29-2013, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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Maybe Clowney isn't the prospect Peppers was, but he surely is every bit the equal is not more highly regarded than Courtney Brown.

People expect Clowney to show up for the 2014 combine standing 6'6 and weighing close to 275#, which is more Peppers territory and much bigger than Brown. Also Brown busted because of chronic injuries, not ability,(like most stud Penn State prospects ).
I'll take Clowney over Peppers. I'm sticking to my prediction of him being the best prospect at rushing the passer since Lawrence Taylor.
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Old 05-29-2013, 02:38 PM    (permalink
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Maybe Clowney isn't the prospect Peppers was, but he surely is every bit the equal is not more highly regarded than Courtney Brown.

People expect Clowney to show up for the 2014 combine standing 6'6 and weighing close to 275#, which is more Peppers territory and much bigger than Brown. Also Brown busted because of chronic injuries, not ability,(like most stud Penn State prospects ).
He reportedly stood 6052 @ the SC pro day and weighed 270.

Brown was 6047 and 269.

To other posts:

I don't think people are saying that teams should pass on someone they truly think is a franchise QB, but right now the only one I'm seeing that could fill that role is Bridgewater. Did the Panthers make the right choice taking Peppers over Harrington when they needed a franchise QB? In hindsight I think so, I remember thinking the Texans should take Peppers because I wasn't impressed with Carr or Harrington as prospects.

From what we've seen from Clowney, (FR and SO film), I think he's right up there between Peppers and Williams as prospects (as of now)

Williams had a knock of whether he was "the guy" or if he excelled being with a good line, I think in time we've seen he is a special player, but in college he played with Manny Lawson and John McGargo, two other first round picks. In hindsight we see that Williams was the player that elevated the other two, but at the time it was somewhat of a question. He was still regarded as one of the top players in the class.

I haven't been following the draft for 20 years yet, but I'm at 15. So I can't say for sure Clowney is one of the top DEs from the last 20 years as a prospect, but I'd say he's going to be top 5 in the last 20 seasons.

To me, there's a list of players as rare athletes and prospects and as of right now, Clowney would be included on that list of rare prospects that only come along so often. Sometimes, for certain reasons these players fall and then a few years later people see bust taken ahead of them and wonder why. But there's just guys who are special and pretty much wherever they were drafted I couldn't see busting

QB Andrew Luck
QB RG3
QB Cam Newton
QB Eli Manning
QB Ben Roethlisberger
RB Adrian Peterson
RB LaDainion Tomlinson
WR Calvin Johnson
WR Larry Fitzgerald
LT Joe Thomas
DE Julius Peppers
DE Mario Williams
DT Ndamakong Suh
LB Patrick Willis
LB Von Miller
CB Patrick Peterson
FS Sean Taylor

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Old 05-29-2013, 07:09 PM    (permalink
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Clowney is projected to be a Top 5 pick, and deservedly so. Therefore, regardless of how his career turns out, he really can't be overrated. There's no way to reach for him.
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Old 05-29-2013, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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While I agree that bad GM's make life easy for solid GM's who chuckle with joy every time a bad GM makes a poor pick, Jarvis Jones cannot play for most teams in the NFL. He is lucky that the Steelers will only ask him to rush the passer and won't ask him to drop into coverage, because all he can do is be a pass rusher. He could never play for a 4-3 team because they ask their LB's to drop into coverage and a lot of 3-4 teams also expect their LB's to drop into coverage.

Jarvis Jones fell in the draft because he is a one dimensional LBer.
I sure hope that's all he's going to do. But you can watch the games and see Harrison and Woodley attempting pretty terribly to drop into coverage. Id expect to see more of the same from Jones.
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Old 05-29-2013, 09:53 PM    (permalink
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Jarvis Jones didn't seem to have a problem dropping into coverage and getting INTs at Georgia.

I'll be real interested to see how his game translates to the NFL and whether or not Jones' workout numbers are relevant.
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Old 05-30-2013, 12:07 AM    (permalink
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Jarvis Jones didn't seem to have a problem dropping into coverage and getting INTs at Georgia.

I'll be real interested to see how his game translates to the NFL and whether or not Jones' workout numbers are relevant.
His 4.90 40 definitely will translate to the NFL. In a 40 yard dash, .1 eqates to about 3 feet, so if a TE or RB who have 4.50-4.60 speed take off down the field, Jones will be giving up between 12 to 9 feet in trying to cover them. I doubt Pittsburgh will ask him to do a whole lot of that unless they are insane.
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Old 05-30-2013, 01:13 AM    (permalink
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Average linebacker speed seems to be in the 4.6s these days, so Jarvis Jones is definitely significantly slower than his peers, so I do worry about him in coverage. He landed in the right spot, though, so it's just a matter of seeing whether he can replace James Harrison. James Harrison is really similar skill-wise, but he's much more violent and that intimidation and aggression was a big part of what makes him good. But we'll see. I did my share of Jones-bashing pre-draft, but if there's a place he can succeed, for my money it's Pittsburgh.
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Old 05-30-2013, 01:30 AM    (permalink
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While I agree with you (OMGZZZ) on the last point, who is a better pass rushing prospect than Clowney in the last decade?
Maybe I'm biased, but I would say that the closest comparison to him would have to go back to Courtney Brown. Unfortunately for Brown, injuries ruined his NFL career.

EDIT: I see Brown has already been brought up in this thread.
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Old 05-30-2013, 11:33 AM    (permalink
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Would you take Jadaveon Clowney over Matt Ryan?

In hindsight, Peppers over Carr was the right choice because Carr was not a great QB prospect, or maybe he just went to a really bad team. But would the Texans have been any better with Peppers instead?

Conversely, if there actually *is* a solid QB prospect in the draft a la Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco in the '08 draft - one who is well-regarded but not considered elite - would Clowney, as good as a prospect as he is, be a better choice over that QB?

I don't think so.

It all comes down to how you feel about the QBs in the class. If Teddy Bridgewater / Johnny Manziel look like they could at least be in the Ryan/Flacco level of QB prospects, then you have to take them over Clowney, even if you consider Clowney to be the next Lawrence Taylor as a prospect. I'd rather have Matt Ryan and average pass rushers than Lawrence Taylor and no QB.
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Old 05-30-2013, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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Would you take Jadaveon Clowney over Matt Ryan?

In hindsight, Peppers over Carr was the right choice because Carr was not a great QB prospect, or maybe he just went to a really bad team. But would the Texans have been any better with Peppers instead?

Conversely, if there actually *is* a solid QB prospect in the draft a la Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco in the '08 draft - one who is well-regarded but not considered elite - would Clowney, as good as a prospect as he is, be a better choice over that QB?

I don't think so.

It all comes down to how you feel about the QBs in the class. If Teddy Bridgewater / Johnny Manziel look like they could at least be in the Ryan/Flacco level of QB prospects, then you have to take them over Clowney, even if you consider Clowney to be the next Lawrence Taylor as a prospect. I'd rather have Matt Ryan and average pass rushers than Lawrence Taylor and no QB.
This is what the Rams did in taking Bradford over Suh. I was adamantly against Bradford at the time. But they had already passed on Sanchez and Ryan in previous drafts, so they couldn't pass on a franchise QB again.

While I still sometimes wonder what could have been with Suh in the middle, I have to admit that it was the right call. Bradford was one of the main reasons why the Rams landed Fisher, and he is starting to come into his own as a QB. Had they taken Suh, they would likely still be an absolute mess. Even if Bradford flakes out, it was still the right move at the time.
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Old 05-30-2013, 01:59 PM    (permalink
Babylon
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Would you take Jadaveon Clowney over Matt Ryan?

In hindsight, Peppers over Carr was the right choice because Carr was not a great QB prospect, or maybe he just went to a really bad team. But would the Texans have been any better with Peppers instead?

Conversely, if there actually *is* a solid QB prospect in the draft a la Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco in the '08 draft - one who is well-regarded but not considered elite - would Clowney, as good as a prospect as he is, be a better choice over that QB?

I don't think so.

It all comes down to how you feel about the QBs in the class. If Teddy Bridgewater / Johnny Manziel look like they could at least be in the Ryan/Flacco level of QB prospects, then you have to take them over Clowney, even if you consider Clowney to be the next Lawrence Taylor as a prospect. I'd rather have Matt Ryan and average pass rushers than Lawrence Taylor and no QB.
You're mixing players from differant drafts here. Let's see how this year plays out and see if Teddy Bridgewater/Johnny Manziel are as highly rated as Matt Ryan then you're point can be debated.

And yeah i'd rather have Lawrence Taylor than Matt Ryan, there are ways to acquire a QB besides using a top of the draft pick on one.
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Old 05-30-2013, 05:00 PM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
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You're mixing players from differant drafts here. Let's see how this year plays out and see if Teddy Bridgewater/Johnny Manziel are as highly rated as Matt Ryan then you're point can be debated.

And yeah i'd rather have Lawrence Taylor than Matt Ryan, there are ways to acquire a QB besides using a top of the draft pick on one.
It's much harder to find a real QB outside of the top 40 or so picks (despite counterexamples that are basically outliers - and recent guys like Russell Wilson do not count because it's too early to tell with them), and when you can't score points (no QB), that pass rusher means nothing.

I would much rather have Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco than Lawerence Taylor, if given that choice that I had to make with a first round pick.
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:48 PM    (permalink
TheFinisher
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I would much rather have Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco than Lawerence Taylor, if given that choice that I had to make with a first round pick.
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:44 PM    (permalink
Poz51
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It's much harder to find a real QB outside of the top 40 or so picks (despite counterexamples that are basically outliers - and recent guys like Russell Wilson do not count because it's too early to tell with them), and when you can't score points (no QB), that pass rusher means nothing.

I would much rather have Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco than Lawerence Taylor, if given that choice that I had to make with a first round pick.
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