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Old 05-28-2013, 12:05 PM    (permalink
JHL6719
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
You're right, he's only responsible for his mistakes.

And he made plenty of them. He was not a good quarterback in the playoffs prior to this year. You're being a qb apologist.

And I don't buy the Elway excuse either. Bc Elway went to 2 SBs during the same era as Marino with arguably a worse team and an infinitely worse coach.

Elway's track record of success even without the SB rings trumps Marino by a wide margin.

Matt Ryan wasn't a good QB in the playoffs prior to this year... that is correct. However, the rest of his team was worse in playoff time than even he was by a large margin. That's the point.

If he had a defense forcing 35 turnovers, it wouldn't matter as much. Just like it didn't matter for Flacco in order to accumulate playoff "success".

The issue is that you're one of these folks that lays everything at the feet of the QB, and give them all the credit if they win.

Elway never at any point in his career had a worse team than Marino had. Not even close. Dan Reeves took the Falcons to the superbowl in addition to losing 3 with Elway before Shanahan arrived. That's basically the same achievement Shula has on his resume.... taking two different teams to the superbowl (in reality Marino took the Dolphins to the superbowl in '84).

Lastly, Elway's accomplishments do not trump Marino's by a wide margin, even without the superbowls. That's pretty hilarious actually.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:06 PM    (permalink
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Why do you keep repeating this myth? Peyton Manning had a running game. Good grief. It was the defense that was always the weak link of Peyton's teams in Indy. They were dead last in the league agains the run the year Peyton won the superbowl. However, they stepped up and dominated during the playoffs as if they weren't even the same team.

Furthermore, it's not that Miami didn't invest on the defensive side of the ball. It's that all those high draft picks on that side of the ball were epic busts and out of the league in no time.

Those failures fall squarely on the shoulders of Don Shula, inparticular his loyalty to Olivadotti. We agree that the team was built wrong.... this is exactly what forced Marino to be great to begin with in order for Miami to be a competitive team. He had to be great.

Marino had nowhere near the talent on either side of the ball that Elway had in Denver. Marino in his prime never had a defensive player as good as Simon Fletcher for ****'s sake. Much less Steve Atwater, Neil Smith, etc.

He never had a Shannon Sharpe or Terrell Davis.
A key to remember though is, Peyton did something often that Marino didn't, and Marino was often criticized for this throughout his career: Peyton would check to the run.

Marino was given the freedom to check to the run during his career, and often times would be stubborn and continue to air it out instead of attacking the light box.

It's a fair critique of him. Say what you want about his run game, but it's not a black and white issue. Had he checked to the run more often against the lighter boxes, his run game would be statistically improved. And we wouldn't have this discussion about his run game. Peyton has had a successful run game even without great RBs for this reason, he was much more willing to run the ball and check out of passes.

Which has an effect on the defense as well.

His stubbornness didn't help him (Marino). Jimmy Johnson did not have an easy time taking the ball out of his hands, and this was well after Marino was out of his prime. Marino has been known to be stubborn about checking out of the pass.

It's not fair to say he had no run game or defense when he did little to help either unit. That's why playing qb is so much more than just passer ratings and completion percentages. How you manage the game as a qb has a domino effect on the entire team. And Marino didn't manage the game as well as he could have.

It's a big reason why he's ringless.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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A key to remember though is, Peyton did something often that Marino didn't, and Marino was often criticized for this throughout his career: Peyton would check to the run.

Marino was given the freedom to check to the run during his career, and often times would be stubborn and continue to air it out instead of attacking the light box.

It's a fair critique of him. Say what you want about his run game, but it's not a black and white issue. Had he checked to the run more often against the lighter boxes, his run game would be statistically improved. And we wouldn't have this discussion about his run game. Peyton has had a successful run game even without great RBs for this reason, he was much more willing to run the ball and check out of passes.

Which has an effect on the defense as well.

His stubbornness didn't help him (Marino). Jimmy Johnson did not have an easy time taking the ball out of his hands, and this was well after Marino was out of his prime. Marino has been known to be stubborn about checking out of the pass.

It's not fair to say he had no run game or defense when he did little to help either unit. That's why playing qb is so much more than just passer ratings and completion percentages. How you manage the game as a qb has a domino effect on the entire team. And Marino didn't manage the game as well as he could have.

It's a big reason why he's ringless.
Thank you. It's what I have been trying to say but couldn't properly put into words.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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Matt Ryan wasn't a good QB in the playoffs prior to this year... that is correct. However, the rest of his team was worse in playoff time than even he was by a large margin. That's the point.

If he had a defense forcing 35 turnovers, it wouldn't matter as much. Just like it didn't matter for Flacco in order to accumulate playoff "success".

The issue is that you're one of these folks that lays everything at the feet of the QB, and give them all the credit if they win.

Elway never at any point in his career had a worse team than Marino had. Not even close. Dan Reeves took the Falcons to the superbowl in addition to losing 3 with Elway before Shanahan arrived. That's basically the same achievement Shula has on his resume.... taking two different teams to the superbowl (in reality Marino took the Dolphins to the superbowl in '84).

Lastly, Elway's accomplishments do not trump Marino's by a wide margin, even without the superbowls. That's pretty hilarious actually.
I don't know why you keep bringing up Flacco when talking about Ryan. I could care less what Flacco did. I actually agree with you about Flacco, I think Flacco has a lot to prove before he's elite to me. Not as critical about him as you are, but I don't think he's a stud yet either.

Ryan didn't score a point against the Giants. That's not his defense's fault. Ryan did not change the snap count against the Cardinals and was getting killed. That's not his defense's fault.

Against the Packers, he threw that critical pick 6. Yes they would have lost anyway so let's give him a pass for that game. But still, his playoff success or lack thereof isn't entirely on everyone else's shoulders. He was largely to blame himself.

I definitely put more weight on the qb for wins/losses than anyone else bc let's be real about it: qb performance is the single largest component of team success in football. It just is. It's just a reality of football, coaches and GMs get fired 90% of the time bc of qb play on their team.

When your performance effects a large portion of the game, you have the right to be praised for the team's success more than any other player, but also criticized when you lose. Football is a team game, but there's no denying that the qb position is without question the single biggest determining factor in the team's success.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:16 PM    (permalink
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A key to remember though is, Peyton did something often that Marino didn't, and Marino was often criticized for this throughout his career: Peyton would check to the run.

Marino was given the freedom to check to the run during his career, and often times would be stubborn and continue to air it out instead of attacking the light box.

It's a fair critique of him. Say what you want about his run game, but it's not a black and white issue. Had he checked to the run more often against the lighter boxes, his run game would be statistically improved. And we wouldn't have this discussion about his run game. Peyton has had a successful run game even without great RBs for this reason, he was much more willing to run the ball and check out of passes.

Which has an effect on the defense as well.

His stubbornness didn't help him (Marino). Jimmy Johnson did not have an easy time taking the ball out of his hands, and this was well after Marino was out of his prime. Marino has been known to be stubborn about checking out of the pass.

It's not fair to say he had no run game or defense when he did little to help either unit. That's why playing qb is so much more than just passer ratings and completion percentages. How you manage the game as a qb has a domino effect on the entire team. And Marino didn't manage the game as well as he could have.

It's a big reason why he's ringless.


It seems as if you're trying to pin the fact that he's ringless as a means to hang your argument that he didn't help his running game or defense. It's absolutely absurd.

The fact that he's ringless has nothing to do with how great of a QB he was. He helped his running game and defense to more success than they ever could've aided him to. He literally camoflauged the major flaws within the Dolphins for nearly 2 decades..... both in terms of how the team was built, and also the lack of quality talent all over the roster.

Trent Dilfer "managed" his way to a ring with the same philosophy that won Joe Flacco a lot of playoff games early in his career.

The point is, Marino didn't have anything around him to "manage". The running game wasn't even adequate, nor was the defense.

Marino didn't just compile stats. He was his team's only chance at success. Marino single handedly shredded some of the best defenses that have ever been assembled in the NFL.... particularly early in his career.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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It seems as if you're trying to pin the fact that he's ringless as a means to hang your argument that he didn't help his running game or defense. It's absolutely absurd.

The fact that he's ringless has nothing to do with how great of a QB he was. He helped his running game and defense to more success than they ever could've aided him to. He literally camoflauged the major flaws within the Dolphins for nearly 2 decades..... both in terms of how the team was built, and also the lack of quality talent all over the roster.

Trent Dilfer "managed" his way to a ring with the same philosophy that won Joe Flacco a lot of playoff games early in his career.

The point is, Marino didn't have anything around him to "manage". The running game wasn't even adequate, nor was the defense.

Marino didn't just compile stats. He was his team's only chance at success. Marino single handedly shredded some of the best defenses that have ever been assembled in the NFL.... particularly early in his career.
Dude, I love Marino. He's a top 6 qb of all time to me.

1. Montana
2. Brady
3. Peyton
4. Unitas
5. Elway
6. Marino

The reason why I'm being so critical of him is bc I have to be. Whenever you're talking about the greatest anything of all time, you have to be overly critical of their flaws. It's the only fair way to put a list together. I don't think having Marino as my 6th greatest qb of all time is a sin.

And maybe you have Marino rated higher than I do, and that's fine. I won't kill you for having that opinion, I can completely understand it. But I do feel that you are sweeping his flaws under the rug unfairly when comparing him to the other greats. No qb is in a perfect situation (minus Troy Aikman basically), you're gonna have holes you have to cover. The greats of all time overcome those obstacles. That's all I'm saying.

Hell, I did say he's the greatest thrower of all time afterall.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:23 PM    (permalink
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I don't know why you keep bringing up Flacco when talking about Ryan. I could care less what Flacco did. I actually agree with you about Flacco, I think Flacco has a lot to prove before he's elite to me. Not as critical about him as you are, but I don't think he's a stud yet either.

Ryan didn't score a point against the Giants. That's not his defense's fault. Ryan did not change the snap count against the Cardinals and was getting killed. That's not his defense's fault.

Against the Packers, he threw that critical pick 6. Yes they would have lost anyway so let's give him a pass for that game. But still, his playoff success or lack thereof isn't entirely on everyone else's shoulders. He was largely to blame himself.

I definitely put more weight on the qb for wins/losses than anyone else bc let's be real about it: qb performance is the single largest component of team success in football. It just is. It's just a reality of football, coaches and GMs get fired 90% of the time bc of qb play on their team.

When your performance effects a large portion of the game, you have the right to be praised for the team's success more than any other player, but also criticized when you lose. Football is a team game, but there's no denying that the qb position is without question the single biggest determining factor in the team's success.

In the big picture, the QB position is without question the single biggest determining factor in the team's success. Nowhere does this apply to a greater extent than it does with Marino. Thank you.

However, it's not always that cut and dry on a game-to-game basis. The point I'm trying to make is regardless of how Matt Ryan played, he's still taking the heat for the rest of team not showing up. Even when he plays well, he still takes the heat if his team loses.

Did anybody notice at all Vernon Davis or Zach Miller absolutely KILLING the middle of Atlanta's defense in the playoffs this year? Anybody? Any notice at all? Any?

This is what lost the game agains the 49ers, and almost lost the game against Seattle.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:31 PM    (permalink
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Dude, I love Marino. He's a top 6 qb of all time to me.

1. Montana
2. Brady
3. Peyton
4. Unitas
5. Elway
6. Marino

The reason why I'm being so critical of him is bc I have to be. Whenever you're talking about the greatest anything of all time, you have to be overly critical of their flaws. It's the only fair way to put a list together. I don't think having Marino as my 6th greatest qb of all time is a sin.

And maybe you have Marino rated higher than I do, and that's fine. I won't kill you for having that opinion, I can completely understand it. But I do feel that you are sweeping his flaws under the rug unfairly when comparing him to the other greats. No qb is in a perfect situation (minus Troy Aikman basically), you're gonna have holes you have to cover. The greats of all time overcome those obstacles. That's all I'm saying.

Hell, I did say he's the greatest thrower of all time afterall.


There's just no way Joe Montana can be the best QB that's ever played the game. It's just not possible. It's nothing more than placing too much emphasis on superbowl rings.

Montana would never have started over Marino if they were both in the same situations. His own head coach knows that he wasn't the weapon Marino was.

What happened to Montana when he faced Marino in the playoffs with the Chiefs? Montana even had Marcus Allen.

Where we disagree is that those were Marino's flaws.
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Old 05-28-2013, 12:38 PM    (permalink
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It seems as if you're trying to pin the fact that he's ringless as a means to hang your argument that he didn't help his running game or defense. It's absolutely absurd.

The fact that he's ringless has nothing to do with how great of a QB he was. He helped his running game and defense to more success than they ever could've aided him to. He literally camoflauged the major flaws within the Dolphins for nearly 2 decades..... both in terms of how the team was built, and also the lack of quality talent all over the roster.

Trent Dilfer "managed" his way to a ring with the same philosophy that won Joe Flacco a lot of playoff games early in his career.

The point is, Marino didn't have anything around him to "manage". The running game wasn't even adequate, nor was the defense.

Marino didn't just compile stats. He was his team's only chance at success. Marino single handedly shredded some of the best defenses that have ever been assembled in the NFL.... particularly early in his career.
This is a complete falsehood. In the 8 playoff games that he did win, his running game rewarded him with 981 rushing yards and 6 touchdowns. His insistence to throw the ball every down during his 10 playoff losses did nothing the help the running game. How can you possibly be helping your running game if you don't even trust them enough to hand them the ball?

Look, I'm not in any way saying that Dan Marino was not a great player. I just don't think he was a great team player. I think he wanted to do things his own way, and it wasn't always the best thing for his team. He's kind of the Michael Jordan of football, before Michael Jordan realized he would never win a championship by being a ballhog and scoring 40 every night. Marino just never realized it.
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Old 05-28-2013, 02:13 PM    (permalink
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This is a complete falsehood. In the 8 playoff games that he did win, his running game rewarded him with 981 rushing yards and 6 touchdowns. His insistence to throw the ball every down during his 10 playoff losses did nothing the help the running game. How can you possibly be helping your running game if you don't even trust them enough to hand them the ball?

Look, I'm not in any way saying that Dan Marino was not a great player. I just don't think he was a great team player. I think he wanted to do things his own way, and it wasn't always the best thing for his team. He's kind of the Michael Jordan of football, before Michael Jordan realized he would never win a championship by being a ballhog and scoring 40 every night. Marino just never realized it.

You make a good point in regards to Jordan. Part of Jordan's greatness was the fact that he became willing to incorporate his teammates. That's a quality that few stars of his caliber develope.

However, Marino simply didn't have the supporting cast. There's was nobody that he could incorporate that could win the game.

You people keep contradicting your own arguments. One minute you're admitting that Miami was a team that invested their resources primarily into the passing game, thus neglecting the rest of the team.... then turning around and saying that he should've let this neglected group be more involved.

It's nonsensical on it's face. There was nobody else to get involved other than his receivers. He couldn't involve them by handing the football off to the journeyman backs that he had, behind an offensive line built to pass protect.

You can't point to his playoff wins and cite the rushing statistics as why they won. Fact is, Marino's performance was much more of why they won those games than the 981 yards and 6 TD's. It's just a fact.

Citing the rushing statistics in the post-season for QB's like Elway, Montana, or Peyton Manning would essentially prove it. They actually had it available. Marino didn't.... and for the 5th time, he didn't need it.

He. Needed. A. Defense. Or at least something resembling a defense.
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Old 05-28-2013, 04:08 PM    (permalink
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There's just no way Joe Montana can be the best QB that's ever played the game. It's just not possible. It's nothing more than placing too much emphasis on superbowl rings.

Montana would never have started over Marino if they were both in the same situations. His own head coach knows that he wasn't the weapon Marino was.

What happened to Montana when he faced Marino in the playoffs with the Chiefs? Montana even had Marcus Allen.

Where we disagree is that those were Marino's flaws.
What happened when Montana faced Marino in the Super Bowl?
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Old 05-28-2013, 07:27 PM    (permalink
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What happened when Montana faced Marino in the Super Bowl?
With the Niners team?
He beat him.
What happened when Montana faced Elway in the Super Bowl?
IIRC, it was a lot lot lot lot worse.

By the way, how can we rank Johnny Unitas really?
It was a totally different ballgame back then.
If you have him that high, you need Don Hutson #2 for WR.
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Old 05-28-2013, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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I covered this in my All-Decade thread, but Unitas was basically the first highly intelligent passer that the NFL had. By 'highly intelligent' I mean he could diagnose and pick apart defenses in the heat of the moment, make excellent pre-game preparations, and more importantly, do all this while calling his own plays. It's basically the same stuff everyone praises Bart Starr for. But Unitas did all that with a stronger arm AND a more wide open offense.

Here's an exercise in mental dexterity that's just like pulling a rabbit out of the hat; In the '58 Championship during their game winning drive, Unitas and the Colts faced a crucial play- I think maybe 3rd down or some such. Only this time, the Giants threw a utterly unique curve; They had a linebacker(in this case Harland Svare) directly over receiver Raymond Berry. Here's the frightening part; even though Tom Landry never showed this look before, these two players not only gameplanned for such a scenario a couple of years before, but they immediately remembered their gameplan and implemented it on the fly. Key first down and the drive inevitably ended with Alan Ameche's goal line plunge. It's like they jumped ahead by three decades of play-diagnosing evolution in one moment.

But back to Marino and Montana... does anybody anywhere on the internet have a breakdown on the two that would make Dr. Jack cream his pants? Because I'd love to see it.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:03 PM    (permalink
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Its almost unfair but winning a superbowl matters. Elways legacy is incredibly different because he won those 2 at the end. Marino is one of the best ever but I can never call him the best because he lacks a championship.

I kinda understand you Ryan arguement but his defense would have more turnovers if he won more game which is a semi circular arguement. Flacco has played in 13 playoff games compared to Ryans 5 and Baltimore has unsually had a better defense as well. However Flacco owned it this past season. He wasn't carried like in the past and he played better than Ryan has ever in the playoffs. Ryan is still the better QB overall, but the perception of Flacco should be changed because he was dynamite. No one should be calling him elite but he should get more respect.
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Old 05-29-2013, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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It seems as if you're trying to pin the fact that he's ringless as a means to hang your argument that he didn't help his running game or defense. It's absolutely absurd.

The fact that he's ringless has nothing to do with how great of a QB he was. He helped his running game and defense to more success than they ever could've aided him to. He literally camoflauged the major flaws within the Dolphins for nearly 2 decades..... both in terms of how the team was built, and also the lack of quality talent all over the roster.

Trent Dilfer "managed" his way to a ring with the same philosophy that won Joe Flacco a lot of playoff games early in his career.

The point is, Marino didn't have anything around him to "manage". The running game wasn't even adequate, nor was the defense.

Marino didn't just compile stats. He was his team's only chance at success. Marino single handedly shredded some of the best defenses that have ever been assembled in the NFL.... particularly early in his career.
These facts are incorrect, early in his career, he played on a pretty sound team with decent talent, after all, he was drafted in the late 20's so the team had to be doing something right. It wasn't till later in his career that Miami seemed to stagnate talent wise but usually a great QB can overcome a lot of that.
Marino also played in the AFC where most of the teams were second rate compared to the NFC, and a lot of his stats were garnered against inferior talent.
He also had excellent, successful HC's, yet, he never brought home the ring.
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Old 05-29-2013, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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These facts are incorrect, early in his career, he played on a pretty sound team with decent talent, after all, he was drafted in the late 20's so the team had to be doing something right. It wasn't till later in his career that Miami seemed to stagnate talent wise but usually a great QB can overcome a lot of that.
Marino also played in the AFC where most of the teams were second rate compared to the NFC, and a lot of his stats were garnered against inferior talent.
He also had excellent, successful HC's, yet, he never brought home the ring.
I dont mean to point out something again or rehash something...but he had to have talent around him somewhat offensively for him to put up all these great numbers... i mean scrubs are not going to get open consistently... and I dont think it is any different of a scenario as to how the Saints are built...they are built to PASS THE BALL..the lack of a running game was not something that hindered him, its how the team was built and how the scheme was set up...

Its not by chance that teams that rely soley on passing rarely win it all... i mean you have the Saints and Packers recently that have won despite no running game and mediocre D at best... Marino was on a team similarly built and you can get great stats but in the end it didnt translate to rings...


And on the opposite side of things, you have teams that run run run...like the Vikings, or the Titans(Chris Johnson's 2000 yard season) that dont have a threat of passing really and if the running game gets shut down, they are pretty much screwed.


You have to be balanced, for instance the Broncos v. Ravens in the playoffs... the Broncos couldnt pick up a first down running that would have ended the game, instead we have to punt and the ravens go on to score with no time left.



Its no coincedence that the Broncos of the late 90's were so dominant... we had TD to worry about, but also Rod Smith, Ed McCaffery and Shannon Sharpe for Elway to throw to.

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Old 05-29-2013, 03:29 PM    (permalink
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These facts are incorrect, early in his career, he played on a pretty sound team with decent talent, after all, he was drafted in the late 20's so the team had to be doing something right. It wasn't till later in his career that Miami seemed to stagnate talent wise but usually a great QB can overcome a lot of that.
Marino also played in the AFC where most of the teams were second rate compared to the NFC, and a lot of his stats were garnered against inferior talent.
He also had excellent, successful HC's, yet, he never brought home the ring.

You don't know what you're talking about again.

What Miami was doing right before Marino arrived was run the football and play defense. This was always Shula's philosophy prior to Marino. He changed that philosophy to suit Marino, and became a pass first (actually a pass ONLY) team.... that became soft defensively.

We've already discussed how improperly the team was built, both in terms of philosophy and talent during the Marino era.

The talent on the offensive line was built to run block prior to Marino. Miami's passing game was ranked dead last in the league in '82, but they made it to the superbowl due a strong running game and the "Killer B's" on defense.

The only thing you spoke accurately about was that a great QB can overcome the stagnated talent that Marino had to deal with..... which is exactly what he did. You have no idea how bad those Miami teams would've been without him. Miami was always a contender with Marino despite little else.

This period of irrelevance that Miami has found themselves in, and routinely picking top 10 in the draft since Marino retired, would've happened much sooner had he not carried that franchise for 17 years. He kept them competitive.

The AFC had plenty of talent. The problem is that the AFC at the time was still built pretty much like the old AFL that they came from. A passing league while the dominant teams resided in the NFC because that's where the dominant defenses and running games were found.

The rules are different now. Marino played in an era where DB's were allowed to mug receivers, and obliterate QB's without the worry of officials tossing flags for stern looks at the QB like you have now. Those Miami teams would thrive in this NFL that we see today, simply because the rules favor this type of philosophy. As would those Run-and-Shoot teams in Houston led by Warren Moon. It just wasn't right for that period in the NFL where balanced teams with strong running games and dominant defenses were the keys to winning championships.

Marino didn't garner any more statistics against inferior competition than anybody else has in NFL history. The Miami Dolphins WERE inferior talent compared to the rest of the NFL for the majority of Marino's career. They just had him to carry 'em.

If superbowls are the measuring stick, Terry Bradshaw has to rank as highly as Montana for those that subscribe to this fallacy. Doug Williams, Phil Simms, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and a host of others must be placed above Marino, Fouts, Warren Moon, or Fran Tarkenton.

The bottom line is, some quarterback is going to win a superbowl every year. Occassionally a complete scrub. But you cannot write the story of the NFL without Dan Marino.

I know what I saw, and I haven't seen one better.
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Old 05-29-2013, 11:27 PM    (permalink
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You don't know what you're talking about again.

What Miami was doing right before Marino arrived was run the football and play defense. This was always Shula's philosophy prior to Marino. He changed that philosophy to suit Marino, and became a pass first (actually a pass ONLY) team.... that became soft defensively.

We've already discussed how improperly the team was built, both in terms of philosophy and talent during the Marino era.

The talent on the offensive line was built to run block prior to Marino. Miami's passing game was ranked dead last in the league in '82, but they made it to the superbowl due a strong running game and the "Killer B's" on defense.

The only thing you spoke accurately about was that a great QB can overcome the stagnated talent that Marino had to deal with..... which is exactly what he did. You have no idea how bad those Miami teams would've been without him. Miami was always a contender with Marino despite little else.

This period of irrelevance that Miami has found themselves in, and routinely picking top 10 in the draft since Marino retired, would've happened much sooner had he not carried that franchise for 17 years. He kept them competitive.

The AFC had plenty of talent. The problem is that the AFC at the time was still built pretty much like the old AFL that they came from. A passing league while the dominant teams resided in the NFC because that's where the dominant defenses and running games were found.

The rules are different now. Marino played in an era where DB's were allowed to mug receivers, and obliterate QB's without the worry of officials tossing flags for stern looks at the QB like you have now. Those Miami teams would thrive in this NFL that we see today, simply because the rules favor this type of philosophy. As would those Run-and-Shoot teams in Houston led by Warren Moon. It just wasn't right for that period in the NFL where balanced teams with strong running games and dominant defenses were the keys to winning championships.

Marino didn't garner any more statistics against inferior competition than anybody else has in NFL history. The Miami Dolphins WERE inferior talent compared to the rest of the NFL for the majority of Marino's career. They just had him to carry 'em.

If superbowls are the measuring stick, Terry Bradshaw has to rank as highly as Montana for those that subscribe to this fallacy. Doug Williams, Phil Simms, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and a host of others must be placed above Marino, Fouts, Warren Moon, or Fran Tarkenton.

The bottom line is, some quarterback is going to win a superbowl every year. Occassionally a complete scrub. But you cannot write the story of the NFL without Dan Marino.

I know what I saw, and I haven't seen one better.

Just to reiterate what at least one Super Bowl HC thought of Marino:

Quote:
I loved watching Marino play, it was a lot of fun watching him throw the ball on almost every play, however, I am still stuck on Jimmy Johnson's analysis of Marino when he coached him, Jimmy said that Marino could never be a championship QB, because Marino insisted on throwing the ball way too much. Every time Johnson called a running play, Marino would audible at the LOS and change it to a passing play no matter what Johnson told him pregame.

Yes, Marino's stats are wonderful, but no rings puts him way behind the top QB's of all time IMO. He was just too hard headed to adjust in order to be a winner. Elway, on the other hand was the exact opposite under Shanahan, Shanahan insisted that Elway switch his play calling so the Broncos could win championships and Elway complied, and Denver began running the ball all the way to 2 championships, with Elway using the pass only when it was necessary.
The coaches like Jimmy Johnson didn't value Marino all that much. Marino got out of control and wouldn't make any adjustments in order to win. It was his way or no way and that is why no rings is so telling during his career and you rewriting NFL history won't change that.
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Old 05-30-2013, 06:33 AM    (permalink
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The coaches like Jimmy Johnson didn't value Marino all that much.
Jimmy only took that coaching gig because of Marino being there.
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:01 AM    (permalink
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Just to reiterate what at least one Super Bowl HC thought of Marino:



The coaches like Jimmy Johnson didn't value Marino all that much. Marino got out of control and wouldn't make any adjustments in order to win. It was his way or no way and that is why no rings is so telling during his career and you rewriting NFL history won't change that.


The last game of Marino's career was a 62-7 loss to the Jaguars under Jimmy Johnson in the playoffs. I watched that game. It had nothing to do with adjustments that Marino failed to make. Trust me. Jimmy resigned (quit) the next day.

Before that, I watched him lose 38-3 to the Denver Broncos in the playoffs under Jimmy Johnson. Miami's two best defensive players at the time (Tim Bowens and Zach Thomas) didn't play because of injuries. Believe me, they didn't lose because Marino wouldn't hand the ball off to the scrub running back.

One of only two playoff wins that Marino and Jimmy had together was when Marino led them to victory against Seattle on the road in the wild-card round after Marino took control of the game. Marino led Miami to a come from behind win in this game. Miami's first road playoff victory since 1972.

My point is this, these quotes your referrencing aren't worth the paper they're written on.

Jimmy Johnson wanted a puppet. He handcuffed Marino by taking away his ability to audible under a completely incompetent offensive coordinator in Kippy Brown. Jimmy promoted him from RB's coach after firing Gary Stevens. Miami had one of the most predictable offenses in the league because of this.

I'll tell you how good Jimmy Johnson was for the Dolphins.... after he decided to quit, he left them with Dave Wannstedt in charge.
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Old 05-30-2013, 07:02 AM    (permalink
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Jimmy only took that coaching gig because of Marino being there.
The job certainly would have been a lot less attractive without Marino.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:12 AM    (permalink
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There's just no way Joe Montana can be the best QB that's ever played the game. It's just not possible. It's nothing more than placing too much emphasis on superbowl rings.

Montana would never have started over Marino if they were both in the same situations. His own head coach knows that he wasn't the weapon Marino was.

What happened to Montana when he faced Marino in the playoffs with the Chiefs? Montana even had Marcus Allen.

Where we disagree is that those were Marino's flaws.
I agree with you about Montana. He was a good QB, but he was a system QB.

As for his KC tenure, if the Steeler special teams didn't let KC block a punt, Joe doesn't win a playoff game in 93, either.

I also don't think that Brady should be in the top 2. He has even less of a case for best ever than Montana. He is even more of a system QB, and he has been a glorified game manager a fair amount of his career.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:22 AM    (permalink
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I agree with you about Montana. He was a good QB, but he was a system QB.

As for his KC tenure, if the Steeler special teams didn't let KC block a punt, Joe doesn't win a playoff game in 93, either.

I also don't think that Brady should be in the top 2. He has even less of a case for best ever than Montana. He is even more of a system QB, and he has been a glorified game manager a fair amount of his career.
I agree some what.... about Brady, I remember in the 2000's when Brady and Manning were debated it was clearly Manning has Stats, Brady has wins...

But it has changed somewhat because i dont find it a coincedence that the Patriots haven't won a SB again since Spygate and when the team shifted from defense and more towards putting it all on Brady.


With that being said Brady is still very impressive.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:49 AM    (permalink
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I agree some what.... about Brady, I remember in the 2000's when Brady and Manning were debated it was clearly Manning has Stats, Brady has wins...

But it has changed somewhat because i dont find it a coincedence that the Patriots haven't won a SB again since Spygate and when the team shifted from defense and more towards putting it all on Brady.


With that being said Brady is still very impressive.
It should be pointed out that since Brady won his 3 SB rings, the Patriots have undergone a complete turnover in personnel with only Wilfolk still remaining on defense and Mankins on offense. That is an amazing feat, that Brady has still kept them in the running for SB's even with that huge turnover in personnel.
It just points out how great a QB and leader he is. Manning has never played without solid personnel around him.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:45 AM    (permalink
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It should be pointed out that since Brady won his 3 SB rings, the Patriots have undergone a complete turnover in personnel with only Wilfolk still remaining on defense and Mankins on offense. That is an amazing feat, that Brady has still kept them in the running for SB's even with that huge turnover in personnel.
It just points out how great a QB and leader he is. Manning has never played without solid personnel around him.
Oh no doubt, i think what Brady has been able to do is impressive... Just as what Manning did last season being VERY impressive with 100% of everything new, from his locker to the center, to the WR's etc...

But i was merely pointing out that the 3 SB's that the Pats won were COMPLETLEY different in terms of philosphy being a Defensive run team.

Now whether or not it is spy gate or the fact they have become so offensive orrientated and pass happy simply put Brady and co have not been able to win a SB in almost a decade...


Not critizing Brady because he has done what is asked of him, with a more pass happy OC in place he has done just that and passed the ball lights out, just find it very interesting that since he went from "game manager" with a good D to offensive juggernaut he hasnt hoisted a lombardi trophy



I guess this might be a rant as to the arrogance of BB, he hasnt won a SB in a decade and still doesnt really value anyone, thinking they are all interchangeable and he thinks he is a mastermind being able to plug and play... other than the Josh McDaniels designed spread which has been consistant (he introduced to in 07... before he left for the Broncos and that was the year Brady blew up and has been in the spread ever since.) BB has not been able to fix the D.

Last edited by Denver Bronco56 : 05-31-2013 at 11:54 AM.
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