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Old 05-31-2013, 10:16 AM    (permalink
WCH
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Originally Posted by SuperPacker View Post
Well the eyeball test is probably a lot more accurate than just looking at his throwing yards. He's setting records for passing attempts and he's throwing to Calvin Johnson. I'd be concerned if he wasn't throwing for a misleading amount of yards.
My view is that a QB can make the WR, but not vice versa. If you put Calvin Johnson in KC, then Alex Smith wouldn't throw for 5000 yards.

I've never cared for the "he's throwing to so-and-so" argument, and I guess that's all I have to say about that.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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My view is that a QB can make the WR, but not vice versa. If you put Calvin Johnson in KC, then Alex Smith wouldn't throw for 5000 yards.

I've never cared for the "he's throwing to so-and-so" argument, and I guess that's all I have to say about that.
Calvin doesn't "make" Stafford, but he's a big help and if Calvin wasn't on the Lions I doubt Stafford would be nearly as effective. And anyway, that doesn't change the fact that he's throwing it a ridiculous amount of times. He only averaged 6.8 yards per attempt last year. It's just common sense that the more you throw the ball the more yards you're going to have. Yards is the most useless stat to look at.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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He nearly has 1400 pass attempts over the last two seasons too.

I am not a fan of Stafford's. I feel he's always been overrated because of his big arm. This past season his mechanics got sloppy and it contributed to his inconsistency.
I agree. He led the league in passing attempts which is fine. But keep that in mind when he gets his numbers too. 727 passing attempts?! Good god. He actually set the single season passing attempts per game NFL all time record with 45.4. That's a lot of attempts and he is only 24 years old. I hope they give the kid a running game. I'd hate to see his arm suffer later in his career because of the usage on it.

I look forward to seeing him play in the future.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:34 AM    (permalink
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Just found and read through this whole thread. My 2 cents:

-Eli hasn't been "inconsistent" in like, 3 years. So it's pretty obvious people don't know what they're saying when they drop that line.

- njx, me and my beard are cuddly as fugg. Ready when you are, handsome ;)
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:38 AM    (permalink
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Calvin doesn't "make" Stafford, but he's a big help and if Calvin wasn't on the Lions I doubt Stafford would be nearly as effective. And anyway, that doesn't change the fact that he's throwing it a ridiculous amount of times. He only averaged 6.8 yards per attempt last year. It's just common sense that the more you throw the ball the more yards you're going to have. Yards is the most useless stat to look at.
Meh I think QB rating is the most useless. Yards does tell you something. I mean TDs I think is an over rated stat its useful in determining a few things but you throw a deep pass and they get tackled within the 5 and the team punches it in with the RB doesn't take away from what the QB did. With that said. The Lions were the team with the most drops in the league last season so there is that.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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Meh I think QB rating is the most useless. Yards does tell you something. I mean TDs I think is an over rated stat its useful in determining a few things but you throw a deep pass and they get tackled within the 5 and the team punches it in with the RB doesn't take away from what the QB did. With that said. The Lions were the team with the most drops in the league last season so there is that.
What exactly does yards tell anyone?
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:43 AM    (permalink
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What exactly does yards tell anyone?
That the QB threw the ball and the WR caught the ball? That the ball moved down the field as opposed to completions which you could run a captain check down offense and blow the stat up.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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That the QB threw the ball and the WR caught the ball? That the ball moved down the field as opposed to completions which you could run a captain check down offense and blow the stat up.
Well yards still factor in YAC so that doesn't really help your case.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:44 AM    (permalink
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Instead of looking at yards for a QB's effectiveness, I prefer to focus on yards per attempt.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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Well yards still factor in YAC so that doesn't really help your case.
Fair enough but honestly no stat works in a vacuum.
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oh please. as if canadians even know what beer is.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:50 AM    (permalink
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My view is that a QB can make the WR, but not vice versa. If you put Calvin Johnson in KC, then Alex Smith wouldn't throw for 5000 yards.

I've never cared for the "he's throwing to so-and-so" argument, and I guess that's all I have to say about that.
I almost always agree with you, except when it comes to absolutely special WRs with QBs who's skillset is perfect for those receivers, think C-pep before the fall and Moss, or Garcia before the blow up and TO, Schaub and AJ, those receivers were so special that they put their QBs difficulty ratings to easy and those guys had the talent to let those receivers go ape. Calvin is in that mold where Stafford can get away with a lot just because his arm+megatron=rape. I'm not saying those receivers made those QBs NFL starters, but they absolutely made them much more effective than they otherwise would've been.
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Old 05-31-2013, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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That the QB threw the ball and the WR caught the ball? That the ball moved down the field as opposed to completions which you could run a captain check down offense and blow the stat up.
Lol. Obviously it shows something, the point is that what it shows is completely pointless and irrelevant. It only means something when you look at passing attempts, and then that's when you bring in YPA, which is a different statistic.

You can't compare two QB's based solely of their passing yards.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:06 AM    (permalink
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Instead of looking at yards for a QB's effectiveness, I prefer to focus on yards per attempt.
That is the "best" single stat to look at for QBs, as idiotic as that idea is.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:07 AM    (permalink
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Stafford last year just wasnt that good. The offense was just so lop sidded that it made it easier to defend them. Sure Stafford put up a bunch of yards but he had 700+ attempts so I'm not surprised. I am surprised that he only put up 20 TDs. That is shockingly low for that anount lf attempts. Hopefully with the new weapons in the run game they balance out a bit more and Stafford gets a bit more efficient.

Not to say that Megatron 'makes' Stafford, but CJ plays a monster role in his success. Stafford would still be a pretty good QB but he wouldn't get near his current numbers with out Johnson. Calvin Johnson is just that dominating of a force.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:09 AM    (permalink
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I think yards per attempt is misleading as well. All qb statistics cannot be viewed in a vacuum.

You throw a lot of screen passes and vertical routes off PA and you'll have a high YPA without making many difficult throws.

If you have a Shady McCoy like checkdown that can get 8 yards per checkdown that skews your YPA etc.

At the same time, going Rex Grossman on em and throwing it 20 yards in the air every play isn't the right football move either all the time.

You can't judge the qb position on statistics. Game management is so critical for them. It's why I said in the other thread that Marino is the greatest thrower of all time but not the greatest qb of all time.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:12 AM    (permalink
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I think yards per attempt is misleading as well. All qb statistics cannot be viewed in a vacuum.

You throw a lot of screen passes and vertical routes off PA and you'll have a high YPA without making many difficult throws.

You hit it right there. In general like I've said, it's hard to compare QBs because they play in different systems, with different personnel, and different play calling. It's a tough thing. As you know I know our system very well because I break down our offense. So I know that comparing our offense to others is like comparing apples to oranges.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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You hit it right there. In general like I've said, it's hard to compare QBs because they play in different systems, with different personnel, and different play calling. It's a tough thing. As you know I know our system very well because I break down our offense. So I know that comparing our offense to others is like comparing apples to oranges.
I think the only offenses comparable to ours from an schematic standpoint are NE, and what Chan Gailey ran in Buffalo.

But I do expect a lot of Run N Shoot concepts to start gathering more steam. You're actually seeing teams incorporate more of it into their schemes as well. Not the same WR rules, but route trees in general are getting more complex throughout the league. The Giants and Patriots were just ahead of the curve in this regard for the past 7 years.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:16 AM    (permalink
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As it is most of the time, stats just don't tell complete stories. For QBs its just a quick "is he generally bad or good?" No statistical break down will tell me everything I need to know to determine who is better than who comparitively, but it can generally tell me if an individual is good or bad.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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I think the only offenses comparable to ours from an schematic standpoint are NE, and what Chan Gailey ran in Buffalo.

But I do expect a lot of Run N Shoot concepts to start gathering more steam. You're actually seeing teams incorporate more of it into their schemes as well. Not the same WR rules, but route trees in general are getting more complex throughout the league. The Giants and Patriots were just ahead of the curve in this regard for the past 7 years.
I don't expect it to gain scheme. It's an "old" system and it's a very tough one to run especially when you hand total control to the Qb like we do. Now you are expecting the Qb to process so much information pre snap and post snap read and requiring the WRs to be just as smart. You know what happens in our system when Eli throws left, and the WR keeps running or decides to break right.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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As it is most of the time, stats just don't tell complete stories. For QBs its just a quick "is he generally bad or good?" No statistical break down will tell me everything I need to know to determine who is better than who comparitively, but it can generally tell me if an individual is good or bad.
Also, we have to be realistic. No one watches other teams like their own fan base. So that level of scrutiny isn't applicable for every team and player. I know for me I don't really watch other players with the same level of intensity as I do for my team. Thus, I don't comment on stuff like progressions and schematic things like I do in our specific section of this MB. I know our system because I broke it down, and posted it on this forum. So I feel comfortable commenting on stuff I learned and immersed myself in.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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Stafford last year just wasnt that good. The offense was just so lop sidded that it made it easier to defend them. Sure Stafford put up a bunch of yards but he had 700+ attempts so I'm not surprised. I am surprised that he only put up 20 TDs. That is shockingly low for that anount lf attempts. Hopefully with the new weapons in the run game they balance out a bit more and Stafford gets a bit more efficient.

Not to say that Megatron 'makes' Stafford, but CJ plays a monster role in his success. Stafford would still be a pretty good QB but he wouldn't get near his current numbers with out Johnson. Calvin Johnson is just that dominating of a force.
I must say as a Stafford owner in fantasy football, I know I know, and watching plenty of Lions games that he really wasn't as bad as stats indicated. Yes, Calvin is a huge part of his production, but you don't know how many passes/TD's the other WRs/TE's dropped on him continuously throughout the year. I mean everyone from Titus Young to Burleson to Pettigrew dropped multiple TD's on him or huge plays down the field. I saw it over and over.

So Yes, Stafford needs to improve on being more consistent and not depending on his sidearm throw, but he also did not have much help from targets outside of Calvin. Hell, even Calvin dropped a few TD's on him and easy 1st downs.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:24 AM    (permalink
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I don't expect it to gain scheme. It's an "old" system and it's a very tough one to run especially when you hand total control to the Qb like we do. Now you are expecting the Qb to process so much information pre snap and post snap read and requiring the WRs to be just as smart. You know what happens in our system when Eli throws left, and the WR keeps running or decides to break right.
It's already gathering steam. Pretty much every slot WR in every system is running an option of some sort. Same with TEs.

Not the same WR rules, which overcomplicate things in the Run N Shoot, but site adjustments are the norm in today's passing league. Everybody does it.

The degree and complexity of site adjustments are dependent on the system. But the route tree is far from basic.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:30 AM    (permalink
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It's already gathering steam. Pretty much every slot WR in every system is running an option of some sort. Same with TEs.

Not the same WR rules, which overcomplicate things in the Run N Shoot, but site adjustments are the norm in today's passing league. Everybody does it.

The degree and complexity of site adjustments are dependent on the system. But the route tree is far from basic.
They always did at this level. Just not to the extent that's position wide like our system. We have it across the board and when your skill players can't process that it leads to ints.

I don't think it's gathering steam. It was already in the NFL. The degree is the critical factor which varies system to system. In our specific system, it's like run a lot. It's the foundation of Gilbride's system.
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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But wouldn't the degree to which teams do it league wide increasing mean it's gathering steam?
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Old 05-31-2013, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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But wouldn't the degree to which teams do it league wide increasing mean it's gathering steam?
I don't know if it's increasing is my point. I don't have access to every teams playbook. I don't have access to every teams WR section part of the playbook.

I am saying it was in the NFL to begin with already. The degree to how much is what differs system to system.

Now, the factor is I am not sure it's increasing. It was already here in the first place. It's in HS too. This is not a new thing in that regard. For our specific system, we use it an insane amount. It's the foundation of our system.

Now for just curiosity sake, sure, I would love to see every other system and see how much it's used or not. The offensive coach in my would relish that. I was lucky enough to sit in the Falcons coaches meetings and see their stuff. I even have their plays on my script and schedule sheet. However, those plays are useless because I don't have the Xs and Os of what's going on just the terminology.

So one would need that mixed with the stuff I have to figure out what's going on. But my point was it was already in the NFL. This is not a new concept and with new systems and formations being used more attention is being focused on that for mismatches then the stuff we do. Obviously, we are not going to have Eli run the option, so what is our competitive adv? It's the double edge sword we have in sight adjustments.

Like I told you and BBD, I would LOVE to see Eli in a different system. I know he would be more productive. I am tired of the system we run.
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