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Old 05-31-2013, 09:25 PM    (permalink
J-Mike88
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Yeah it's funny, NE won Super Bowls before Brady was at his best.
Since he's been personally phenomenal, and led teams to the playoffs and a pair of SB's, they've not won.

Better passer; Marino or Brady?
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Old 06-01-2013, 02:39 AM    (permalink
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Better passer: Marino
Better QB: Brady
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Old 06-01-2013, 02:40 AM    (permalink
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In 10 years Marino probably won't even be in the top 10 in most passing statistical categories, so the lack of rings will be even more of a knock on his career.
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Old 06-01-2013, 06:34 AM    (permalink
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Better passer: Marino
Better QB: Brady
Agreed .....
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Old 06-01-2013, 08:13 AM    (permalink
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In 10 years Marino probably won't even be in the top 10 in most passing statistical categories, so the lack of rings will be even more of a knock on his career.
Well passing the ball now is easier than it used to be. Different era. All someone has to do is use a little historical perspective.
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Old 06-01-2013, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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Well passing the ball now is easier than it used to be. Different era. All someone has to do is use a little historical perspective.
This. Receivers used to get mauled by corners. One of the reasons I still don't think Calvin Johnson's season compares to any of Jerry Rice's best. Calvin Johnson will always have a shot at the ball as defensive backs aren't allowed to touch him so it's a game of hops. Jerry Rice would get mauled if he stopped to go up for a ball. So much more impressive what he did.
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Old 06-01-2013, 11:53 PM    (permalink
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Oh no doubt, i think what Brady has been able to do is impressive... Just as what Manning did last season being VERY impressive with 100% of everything new, from his locker to the center, to the WR's etc...

He also inherited a solid OL, and 2 great WR's, something Brady can only dream about.

But i was merely pointing out that the 3 SB's that the Pats won were COMPLETLEY different in terms of philosphy being a Defensive run team.

Now whether or not it is spy gate or the fact they have become so offensive orrientated and pass happy simply put Brady and co have not been able to win a SB in almost a decade...

They have had to rebuild their team from scratch especially the defense and Brady has to put up with an owner who is cheap and lets a lot of FA's walk.


Not critizing Brady because he has done what is asked of him, with a more pass happy OC in place he has done just that and passed the ball lights out, just find it very interesting that since he went from "game manager" with a good D to offensive juggernaut he hasnt hoisted a lombardi trophy

Hardly, his fault, the defense is second rate for quite a few years now.



I guess this might be a rant as to the arrogance of BB, he hasnt won a SB in a decade and still doesnt really value anyone, thinking they are all interchangeable and he thinks he is a mastermind being able to plug and play... other than the Josh McDaniels designed spread which has been consistant (he introduced to in 07... before he left for the Broncos and that was the year Brady blew up and has been in the spread ever since.) BB has not been able to fix the D.
I think it has a lot to do with the budget his owner gives him and thus his inability to retain a lot of FA's, he doesn't set the budget but he has to live with it.
NE's defense is on the verge of being special again, they have invested a lot of picks on that side of the ball and it should be something, perhaps as early as next season.


I'm not a NE fan at all but after 55 odd years of following the game, I can recognize greatness when I see it. Brady has it, Marino and Peyton don't, they both are just statistical marvels during the regular season but often found wanting in the playoffs. Brady, on the other hand, still gets NE decimated even with a decemated offense and defense that lacks the stars of yesteryear.
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Old 06-02-2013, 01:11 AM    (permalink
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So I went through what Dan Marino had for a supporting backfield from '82 (his rookie season) to '92. This would arguably he in his prime;


1983: 12-4 record, still a good-to-great defense. Playoff loss to Seattle.
-Andra Franklin and Tony Nathan headlined the group back when you could still find running games where the FB and HB shared the rock. In this case Nathan was efficient as a change-of-pace who could run and catch, while Franklin was pretty run-of-the-mill. Also, Franklin's 224 carries would not be matched until the Immortal Sammie Smith showed his face in South Beach. Other contributors would be David Overstreet, gone a year later, and Woody Bennett, who for the longest time would be known simply as the lead blocker in the offense.

1984: 14-2, defense still quality. Super Bowl loss to San Francisco.
-Committe approach. Woody Bennett leads in carries with 144. Still averages over 4 yards and scores 7 TDs. Nathan is still very dangerous as a runner (4.7 average this season), but is more valuable as a receiver (61 catches). A rookie by the name of Joe Carter has a great season as a backup (100 carries, 5.0 average) then falls off the face of the earth. A guy named Pete Johnson easily has the worst production, but 9 TDs tells you he was a Goal Line plunger. Effective bunch overall, though easily complementary.

1985: 12-4, defense starting to falter. Narrow playoff victory against Cleveland, followed by miserable loss to New England.
-By now Woody Bennet is a lead blocker, leaving the running to the committe at HB. Only Nathan is effective. Lorenzo Hampton is mediocre, and Ron Davenport can only score at the goal line (11 TDs).

1986: 8-8, defense takes a major DUMP. No playoffs.
-Lorenzo Hampton is inexplicably a workhorse back (186 carries) but is surprisingly effective (830 yard, 4.5 average, 9 TDs) even though Miami played catch-up a heck of an awful lot this year. Davenport is no longer a Goal Line plunger, and is just ordinary. Tony Nathan is barely an afterthought in his last year. Woody Bennett is STILL just a lead blocker.

1987: 8-7, defense seems to make a recovery to average. No Playoffs.
-Rookie Troy Stadford replaces Lorenzo Hampton as the 'workhorse', and submits by all accounts an average job, nothing exciting. Everybody else is pedestrian.

1988: 6-10, defense falls back into mediocrity. No Playoffs.
-Hampton regains 'starting' job, but turns in a mediocre performance (114 rushes, 3.5 average). Troy Stadford is only useful catching passes out of the backfield (56 catches). Nobody else offers anything of note.

1989: 8-8, defense still mediocre. No playoffs.
-The immortal Sammie Smith arrives. Gets 200 carries, for a sub-4 average(3.3 if you wanna retch), and offers nothing to the receiving game. Backfield catches are led by Stadford with 25. Dolphins offense now fairly predictable.

1990: 12-4, defensive resurgence. Narrow playoff win against Kansas City, followed by a shootout loss to Buffalo.
-Smith's numbers 'improve' (226 carries for 831 yards and 8 TDs) but still contributes little to the receiving game. Passing game becomes more unpredictable with the emergence of Tony Paige at fullback(35 catches) alongside Stadford(30 catches) in his final season in Miami.

1991: 8-8, defense back to mediocre. No playoffs.
-Smith is replaced in the starting lineup by Mark Higgs, who puts on a slightly better though still VERY similar performance as the workhorse back (231 carries, 905 yards, 3.9 average, little contibution as a receiver. Tony Paige becomes the main catcher out of the backfield(57 catches).

1992: 11-5, defense surges back to reasonably solid. Shutout playoff win over San Diego, followed by a miserable loss to Buffalo.
-Higgs breaks last year's Marino-era record with 256 carries. Still largely ineffective as a workhorse rusher. Tony Paige is still a lead blocker and safety valve out of the backfield. Bobby Humphrey, formerly the lead back form Denver for two years, contributes solid running and a receiving threat in the backfield. It's slightly serviceable overall, only Humphrey doesn't come back the next year.

After all this comes two more years of Don Shula. Mark Higgs is the workhorse for one more year, then the eras of Bernie Parmalee and Karim Abdul-Jabbar. These two rushers coincide with the Jimmy Johnson era, and both gets workloads as close as possible as could be gotten to Emmit Smith (Abdul-Jabbar in particular actually achieved 300-plus carries in his rookie season and easily got the most volume of carries out of ANYONE in the backfield during the Marino years).
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Old 06-02-2013, 08:23 AM    (permalink
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I can recognize greatness when I see it. Brady has it, Marino and Peyton don't, they both are just statistical marvels during the regular season but often found wanting in the playoffs.
Let's focus on what you said right there.

Brady has greatness, Marion and Peyton don't.

Please elaborate on that.
Are you pulling that one out based on playoff performances?

Yes or no, and if yes, than we can head down that path......
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Old 06-02-2013, 01:36 PM    (permalink
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Let's focus on what you said right there.

Brady has greatness, Marion and Peyton don't.

Please elaborate on that.
Are you pulling that one out based on playoff performances?

Yes or no, and if yes, than we can head down that path......
I think they're all great. I don't hold SB wins in as high a regard as a lot of people and see them more of a team effort than on the QB. Brady could have 5 rings if his D and Welker didn't blow it and if Vandershank could make a chip shot or if their S could have not got torched last year Peyton may seem to have 'it' as people like to say. Just think if Marino and Manning had a great D for the majority of their careers, what might of been. I think 'it' exists but it's not exclusive to the post season. All these guys have 'it' but there are a lot more variables that go into the equation of winning in the post season than just QB play.
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Old 06-02-2013, 02:18 PM    (permalink
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Marino was/is an moron. Arm talent can only go so far for so long without the mental game to carry it further.
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Old 06-02-2013, 03:12 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by J-Mike88 View Post
Let's focus on what you said right there.

Brady has greatness, Marion and Peyton don't.

Please elaborate on that.
Are you pulling that one out based on playoff performances?

Yes or no, and if yes, than we can head down that path......
Yes, Yes, Yes, I think if you read what I said, it all comes down to playoff performance. However, I did say both Marino and Peyton were statistical marvels during the regular season but Brady had both regular season stats and playoff wins and Super Bowls. I believe the only year Peyton won was when both Brady and Big Ben were injured a good deal of the time, removing those teams from the competition.
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Old 06-03-2013, 12:05 AM    (permalink
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This. Receivers used to get mauled by corners. One of the reasons I still don't think Calvin Johnson's season compares to any of Jerry Rice's best. Calvin Johnson will always have a shot at the ball as defensive backs aren't allowed to touch him so it's a game of hops. Jerry Rice would get mauled if he stopped to go up for a ball. So much more impressive what he did.
Rice wasn't really mugged that much, either. It's not like he played in the 70's, for crying out loud. If he played then, he wouldn't have any of his records.
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:42 AM    (permalink
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I agree with you about Montana. He was a good QB, but he was a system QB.

As for his KC tenure, if the Steeler special teams didn't let KC block a punt, Joe doesn't win a playoff game in 93, either.

I also don't think that Brady should be in the top 2. He has even less of a case for best ever than Montana. He is even more of a system QB, and he has been a glorified game manager a fair amount of his career.
I'm going to go all homer and just debunk this now.

Brady is the system!!!

Do you know how many times the Patriots offensive system has changed through Brady's career?

Which type of system QB is Brady?

Is he only good because he plays in a system which limits his throws and allows the defense to take over?

Is he only good because he plays in a system which has him throw 35+ times a game, many being vertical passes and have 50TD passes?

Is he only good because he plays in a system which forces him to exploit the field horizontally with a slot WR and TEs due to no outside receiving threat?

As far as being a game manager...yes that's what he was to start his career, however a great QB needs to be able to find a balance between a game manager and someone who tries to take over all the time. You think the Lions wouldn't prefer Matthew Stafford to be more of a game manager?

And even in saying that, in 2 of Brady's complete years in his career he has averaged less than 30 attempts per game. And not to get to in depth on stats, but how can a guy who throws at 66% for 5235 yards, 39 TDs and 12 INTs be considered a game manager?

And to answer those who have said the Pats haven't won a Superbowl since Spygate...well guess what neither have 25 other teams. But the Pats were in 2 Superbowls. The Giants won in 2007 with what will possibly go down as the most miraculous escape, throw and catch in NFL history, and that's not forgetting that Asante Samuel let a sure thing INT slip thrugh his hands. In 2011, if Welker held on to a (difficult) catch the game was over. Then there needed to be an inch perfect throw and catch from Manning to Manningham to keep the Giants alive. So lets not act like since Spygate the Pats have sucked and ****.

They lost 2 Superbowls by a combined 7 points and due to some miraculous plays which the Giants t their credit were able to convert and the Pats weren't able to stop.

Give any arguments as to why Brady isn't a top whatever QB you want, but to say he is a game manager is probably about 8 years too late and the Superbowl argument is ridiculous.
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:18 AM    (permalink
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Let me reiterate... I think Brady is great... I just dont like the Patriots, and more specifically BB.


It just wanted to point out that once Brady had started putting up gaudy stats the team hadnt won... but when he was more of a game manager the team was winning SB's..

And i think it has to do with BB thinking he can put anyone out there and they will produce, and never giving the players extensions that have earned them.
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:31 AM    (permalink
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Let me reiterate... I think Brady is great... I just dont like the Patriots, and more specifically BB.


It just wanted to point out that once Brady had started putting up gaudy stats the team hadnt won... but when he was more of a game manager the team was winning SB's..

And i think it has to do with BB thinking he can put anyone out there and they will produce, and never giving the players extensions that have earned them.
I understand why people, and some Pats fans even, think this way. But the Pats not winning since Brady went off isn't exactly his fault. As I mentioned the Giants had a miracle, once in a lifetime play to win in 2007. In 2011 the Pats had a near miss - poor throw and poor drop, and lost due in thanks to a ridiculous throw and catch.

As for players earning extensions it's all subjective. Sure us Pats fans would have loved it if guys like Asante Samuel, Richard Seymour, Wes Welker etc got deals but you can't argue with results.

The Pats are never in real salary cap trouble. They don't overpay for guys. If you want to criticise Belichick's personnel moves then using the examples of guys he has let go isn't the best way to do it. For the vast majority, once guys leave New England they don't have close to the same production. In fact Belichick has flat out robbed some teams. 1st rounder for Deion Branch based off a nice playoffs the year before? 1st rounder for a 30 year old Richard Seymour entering the final year of the contract?

The hard thing people have realising is there can't be loyalty in business. The entire nature of the business is to try and underpay for over achievement. You can only pay good money to a select few players - look at top free agent signings of recent years. who signs free agents to megabucks and goes on to have sustained success? Belichick makes calculated risks. If he feels he can get similar production for a fraction of the cost he is going to do it. Seymour was one of the best Patriots of all time and the prototype 2 gap 5 technique. However he was looking a big extension the Pats weren't going to give him and then the Raiders offered a 1st rounder. No way in hell he was going to pass that up.

No, if you are going to criticise BB then do it for his sometimes over-reliance on aging veterans who he brings in at times with a guaranteed roster spot, ie Haynesworth, Ocho Johnson, Lloyd etc. Not only were these guys a waste of money but they also took up a roster spot which could have been used to develop younger talent.

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Old 06-03-2013, 08:33 AM    (permalink
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The whole Brady hasn't won since he had a defense thing doesn't make sense bc he still went to 2 SBs since then, had an undefeated regular season, and 2 of his 3 SBs he didn't have a run game.

So yeah.

Not buying it.

And let's debunk this myth that the Dolphins were Dan Marino and a bunch of scrubs. Bc that's simply not true. Marino just didn't get it done. He lost a lot of winnable playoff games.
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:35 AM    (permalink
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I hate when people say Brady is a system qb.

Which system would that be exactly? The one he ran under Weis? Or was it the one he ran under McDaniels?

Maybe the one he ran under O'Brien?

Brady has run multiple offenses and has been a stud in all of them. So which "system" is making him exactly?
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:35 AM    (permalink
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I think the moves such as letting Seymore go was a win and a loss... they got the picks... but for a D that has been the achilles heel of the team you cant let an all pro player walk.


The Branch move was a steal...but i think letting someone let Welker go will come back and haunt them... Danny isnt going to be able to step up and replicate one of the best slot WR's to ever play, 1 because he most likely wont stay healthy all 16 games, 2 he has no chemistry with Brady and that is something that only comes with time
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:37 AM    (permalink
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The whole Brady hasn't won since he had a defense thing doesn't make sense bc he still went to 2 SBs since then, had an undefeated regular season, and 2 of his 3 SBs he didn't have a run game.

So yeah.

Not buying it.

And let's debunk this myth that the Dolphins were Dan Marino and a bunch of scrubs. Bc that's simply not true. Marino just didn't get it done. He lost a lot of winnable playoff games.

So that fact that the Pats went to 5 SB's is the thing that matters?


if thats the case Elway went to 5 also, but only gets remembered for his 2 wins at the end of his career....


Simple fact is the Pats havent been able to get it done in 10 years... getting there and winning it are 2 distinctly different things..
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:43 AM    (permalink
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So that fact that the Pats went to 5 SB's is the thing that matters?


if thats the case Elway went to 5 also, but only gets remembered for his 2 wins at the end of his career....


Simple fact is the Pats havent been able to get it done in 10 years... getting there and winning it are 2 distinctly different things..
That's such a lame excuse, sorry but it just is. You know how hard it is to win a SB? The man has 3 of them. Only 2 QBs in NFL history have more. And he's been to 5. And his career isn't over yet. And unlike Elway, he didn't play in a watered down AFC that was basically the JV division of the NFL in the 80s and most of the 90s.

I'm not taking anything away from Elway, I think Elway is one of the greatest of all time, but I think you should focus more on making an argument for Elway instead of using poor arguments against Brady to elevate Elway.

Brady's accomplishments are incredible, and honestly trying to knock them down is just a biased argument.

I don't like the guy either, but come on.
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:43 AM    (permalink
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I think the moves such as letting Seymore go was a win and a loss... they got the picks... but for a D that has been the achilles heel of the team you cant let an all pro player walk.


The Branch move was a steal...but i think letting someone let Welker go will come back and haunt them... Danny isnt going to be able to step up and replicate one of the best slot WR's to ever play, 1 because he most likely wont stay healthy all 16 games, 2 he has no chemistry with Brady and that is something that only comes with time
Time will tell with Amendola. Welker had unheard of success in New England and that consistent target is going to be hard to replace, no doubt. But the Patriots have changed how they play offense so many times (hence why Brady isn't a system QB) that it wouldn't surprise me to see them go more vertical, and that's just something Welker doesn't do well.

Plus, what Welker gave was those slip screens, whip routes, drags etc which are commonly referred to as glorified hand offs. I am in no way trying to undervalue their importance, however the Pats now have a very strong running game which kinda limits the value of those throws.

My own view is that the Pats want to put pressure on defenses with a consistent running game and strong play action. Welker isn't really a massive factor in the play action game because he doesn't really threaten behind the defense. Just my two cents. Welker is a big loss if the Pats keep the same offense from the last 2 years but I would be very surprised if it wasn't considerably tweaked yet again.
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:50 AM    (permalink
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That's such a lame excuse, sorry but it just is. You know how hard it is to win a SB? The man has 3 of them. Only 2 QBs in NFL history have more. And he's been to 5. And his career isn't over yet. And unlike Elway, he didn't play in a watered down AFC that was basically the JV division of the NFL in the 80s and most of the 90s.

I'm not taking anything away from Elway, I think Elway is one of the greatest of all time, but I think you should focus more on making an argument for Elway instead of using poor arguments against Brady to elevate Elway.

Brady's accomplishments are incredible, and honestly trying to knock them down is just a biased argument.

I don't like the guy either, but come on.

I think the simple fact that he hasnt won in a decade,..is overlooked because he does have 3 rings...

But my point is what has he done lately? what he has done is put up great stats but hasnt been able to win it all.... blame it on whatever you want, but he has been a "peyton manning" for the last 10 years... tons of regular season success with no superbowl wins to back it up.
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Old 06-03-2013, 08:55 AM    (permalink
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I think the simple fact that he hasnt won in a decade,..is overlooked because he does have 3 rings...

But my point is what has he done lately? what he has done is put up great stats but hasnt been able to win it all.... blame it on whatever you want, but he has been a "peyton manning" for the last 10 years... tons of regular season success with no superbowl wins to back it up.
See, I don't view him as a Peyton Manning bc I think he's had more playoff success compared to Peyton during their respective runs. His only crime is not winning the SB, but he's pretty much done just about everything else you can ask of a qb during this stretch. He's carried a team that severely lacks talent. He's carried a team with a historically bad defense, mediocre weapons and no run game, he's been a consistent winner during this span, he's broken records, he's had an undefeated regular season, he's been to 2 SBs, been league MVP.

He's basically done every single thing you can ask for except win 1 of those 2 SBs.

How is that a knock on the guy? Like I said, it's not easy winning the SB, we're making it out to be this routine thing when it's not. He's already won 3 of em. In the parity era.

I just don't see how we can honestly critique his accomplishments without having a biased agenda behind it. The man's resume speaks for itself.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:12 AM    (permalink
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Ok so again he has had all the regular season success you can ask for (just like Peyton Manning) but when he gets to the post season he cant win it all, and the blame goes to his D or lack of weapons... the same team that had no trouble during the regular season..


Im pretty sure that can be said for Peyton Manning also.... face it since they have won their last SB he hasnt done anything more that Peyton Manning has... going to a SB isnt want sets a QB apart it is winning it...

Blaming the Pats not winning their SB's because of a lack of D or mediocre weapons is the exact same excuse the Colts had during Manning's tenure there.
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