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Old 06-03-2013, 02:26 PM    (permalink
Poz51
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He will NOT measure out to 6'1 at the Combine, I guarantee it. My guess is he is closer to 5'11 than 6'1.
Clemson usually rounds their player up to the nearest inch, Ellington 5'9 and change, listed at 5'10", Goodman 6'3" and change, listed at 6'4", Hopkins 6' +, listed at 6'1". I saw Boyd and Manual at the Chesapeake junior day when they were in high school, Manual was every bit of the 6'4-5" he was listed as at the time, and boyd was about as tall as me (I am 6') from what I remember, but we did not go back to back...
Unless he's grown since then which is possible, I firmly believe he will be in the 6-6'1" range. If you would like to avoid real discussion and squable over an inch or so, we can...

Just for fun, you have the option to draft Troy Aikman or Derrick Thomas, who do you take?
This one has been fun amongst my boyz; Bruce Smith or Jim Kelly are in the same draft, who do you take?
Another good one for fun; Drew Brees, Russell Wilson and Julius Peppers walk into a draft, who do you take first?
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Old 06-03-2013, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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Derrick Thomas had 27 sacks in a season and still did not go first, second or third in the draft, despite being the best prospect since, LT, Reggie or anyone else in many opinons at the time. Aikman 1, DT - 4, Superbowls: Aikman - Yes, Thomas - No...

Will Boyd be Aikman? I have no clue. I just know what I have seen from him, and what history has shown, and I will a franchise caliber QB over a franchise DE everytime.


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Originally Posted by Poz51 View Post
Just for fun, you have the option to draft Troy Aikman or Derrick Thomas, who do you take?
This one has been fun amongst my boyz; Bruce Smith or Jim Kelly are in the same draft, who do you take?
Another good one for fun; Drew Brees, Russell Wilson and Julius Peppers walk into a draft, who do you take first?
The 1989 Draft is an absolute ridiculous one to use to try and quantify something like that. No Draft before or since ever had that type of talent in the Top 5 picks, any of whom would have gone #1 overall most years between Aikman, Barry Sanders, Deion Sanders, and Derrick Thomas. Hell without the benefit of hindsight given his physique and college career Tony Mandarich would have likely been a #1 overall pick a few times in other drafts.

But to answer the hypothetical questions:

Aikman over Derrick Thomas
Bruce Smith over Jim Kelly
Drew Brees over Julius Peppers (and Russell Wilson belongs nowhere near this conversation).


But when trying to compare Teddy Bridgewater or even more laughably Tahj Boyd to Jadaveon Clowney is not comparing rare QB talents to a rare DE talent, it is comparing a Good QB prospect to an Elite DE prospect in which case the DE wins every single time. Funny you brought up Julius Peppers, as David Carr (a good but far from great QB prospect) over him is exactly why you take the elite DL prospect over the Good (or worse) QB prospect every single time.
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Old 06-03-2013, 04:39 PM    (permalink
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Another good one for fun; Drew Brees, Russell Wilson and Julius Peppers walk into a draft, who do you take first?
Knowing what we know now? Of course Brees. But looking at them purely as prospects, Peppers.
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:04 PM    (permalink
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vikes pick is okay. Safety is definitely a need for the vikings, but DE will be a higher priority especially if Robison and Allen do not return next year. If the vikings continue on with their "youth movement" they will not be back. Allen may be around for a few more seasons...I would say about a 50/50 chance he's back.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:53 AM    (permalink
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Derrick Thomas NEVER had 26 sacks in a season. Google is your friend.;)
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:37 AM    (permalink
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Derrick Thomas NEVER had 26 sacks in a season. Google is your friend.;)
Google derrick thomas and 27 sacks, and you will find that he did never have 26 sacks in a season, but rather 27 at Alabama. Google is your friend ;)

Ah hell, I already did the research...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrick_Thomas
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:22 AM    (permalink
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Google derrick thomas and 27 sacks, and you will find that he did never have 26 sacks in a season, but rather 27 at Alabama. Google is your friend ;)

Ah hell, I already did the research...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derrick_Thomas

I was thinking his KC career, but I still didn't know he put up those numbers at Alabama. That's a crazy single season sack total for the SEC.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:38 AM    (permalink
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I was thinking his KC career, but I still didn't know he put up those numbers at Alabama. That's a crazy single season sack total for the SEC.
In the 80's a sack was considered any tackle of the QB behind the LOS, even on a designed option play. Still an amazing season but the numbers would be different today because of the change of rules.
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:55 PM    (permalink
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The 1989 Draft is an absolute ridiculous one to use to try and quantify something like that. No Draft before or since ever had that type of talent in the Top 5 picks, any of whom would have gone #1 overall most years between Aikman, Barry Sanders, Deion Sanders, and Derrick Thomas. Hell without the benefit of hindsight given his physique and college career Tony Mandarich would have likely been a #1 overall pick a few times in other drafts.

But to answer the hypothetical questions:

Aikman over Derrick Thomas
Bruce Smith over Jim Kelly
Drew Brees over Julius Peppers (and Russell Wilson belongs nowhere near this conversation).


But when trying to compare Teddy Bridgewater or even more laughably Tahj Boyd to Jadaveon Clowney is not comparing rare QB talents to a rare DE talent, it is comparing a Good QB prospect to an Elite DE prospect in which case the DE wins every single time. Funny you brought up Julius Peppers, as David Carr (a good but far from great QB prospect) over him is exactly why you take the elite DL prospect over the Good (or worse) QB prospect every single time.
First things first on my end, to clarify, I am not staying that Clowney is not an elite prospect, I agree that he is, but would argue D. Thomas was on a whole nother level coming out at this point. Clowney has a year, and has set his sights one Thomas's record, so time can change my stance.
I do think Bridgewater is close to elite and can seal it this year, Boyd while not as close is ascending towards that level. Time will tell. Of the 3 I do believe Clowney is the best prospect at this point in time overall.

I do see the the 89 draft as a perfect way to quantify this debate. I do agree that, that drafts top 5 picks talent wise will be hard pressed to be seen again. Hindsight aside, Aikman was not a world beater heading into that draft, he was accurate and made good decisions, Thomas coming off a 27 sack season. In that draft you have maybe the best college pass rushing prospect ever, one of the greatest college running backs ever who was a human joystick before there was such a thing, one of the greatest college d-back prospects ever, the "safe" olineman who looked like again one of the greatest oline prospects ever (all potetially), and Troy Aikman a smart, accurate quarterback who had a strong arm, clearly the top in the class. Everything I have read and seen does not even mention the other guys as possibilities for Landry or Johnson in that offseason. Everything I have seen mentions Aikman as the top QB on most boards, not top prospect.

Of those other guys, Sanders won a superbowl, but he had to leave Atlanta and go find great QB's to make it happen...

I would debate strongly Aikman being a "rare" QB talent if that is the implication.
I keep bringing this up to Boys fans who say Aikman was the greatest QB ever and am interested in your point of view. Aikman only threw for more than 20 touch downs once in 11/12? years, the only reason he is considered so great IMO is that he won 3 superbowls, with a hall of fame supporting cast. He wasnt a hall of fame QB based on his production IMO. He was however a very good QB who could and in his case did win the super bowl, which is similar to the point I am trying to make about Boyd.

Regardless, you have a potential franchise QB, RB, LT, CB and OLB (coming off a 27 sack season) to pick from, why are you taking the QB in that situation over the "elite" pass rusher, or even joystick RB, playmaking CB and "safe" LT? Self curiosity why Brees over Peppers, but not Kelly over Smith?
This is not unusual when I ask this question, as most people take the QB SuperBowl winners over what many consider the better pure football players, then take the better pure talent/player over superbowl loser at QB.

I brought up Pepper not to be funny, but to further illustrate one of my points and bring it up as a mixed bag. Peppers was considered by just about anyone with any sense the #1 prospect in that draft, the word elite and its many synonyms were thrown out in regards to describing him I rated him as a 100 and hall of fame prospect, while many were refering to Carr as the best QB prospect in the draft, with debate about Harrington. Now Pep went before Harrington and has been to a super bowl so in that regard I guess I will counter point myself, but Peppers is still missing the ring.

If Clowney becomes Bruce Smith (potentially), and Boyd becomes Troy Aikman (potentially), who would you draft first?
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Old 06-04-2013, 01:02 PM    (permalink
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In the 80's a sack was considered any tackle of the QB behind the LOS, even on a designed option play. Still an amazing season but the numbers would be different today because of the change of rules.
I would love to see what those numbers would be based on todays rules, I hadnt thought of rule changes, good point.
He also had 68 TFLS and 5 blocked kicks, guy was an animal, both of which are school records for the Tide.
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Old 06-04-2013, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Knowing what we know now? Of course Brees. But looking at them purely as prospects, Peppers.
Agreed, so I ask you this; Potential franchise QB, or sure bet defensive end, who do you take?
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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I would love to see what those numbers would be based on todays rules, I hadnt thought of rule changes, good point.
He also had 68 TFLS and 5 blocked kicks, guy was an animal, both of which are school records for the Tide.
I thought a sack in the current NCAA was any tackle of the QB behind the LOS?? What's the difference between then and now??
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:04 AM    (permalink
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I thought a sack in the current NCAA was any tackle of the QB behind the LOS?? What's the difference between then and now??
http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/Stats_...all/2012ez.pdf

It looks as though "intent" to pass is the definition now, and option plays are run plays until the QB looks to pass. I have no idea what the interpretation may have been in 1988, as I can not find anything on it, which is why I find it interesting.
I know a local statitician for high schools in the area, although I dont think he is old enough to provide insight into the interpretation of 1988, maybe he can give me something to help clarify.
If the same "intent" to pass applies then as I believe it does now, then 27 sacks would be actual pass plays, but if as Nole states that in the 80's any tackle of a QB behind the LOS was a sack, than it would be interesting to see how many of those "sacks" were really TFL's on option plays in regards to my interpretation of todays rules.
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Old 07-30-2013, 01:15 PM    (permalink
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What does Jackson Jeffcoat and Jerry have in common or maybe I'm missing something? That'd actually be a really good pick with Spencer leaving.
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Old 08-23-2013, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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What does Jackson Jeffcoat and Jerry have in common or maybe I'm missing something? That'd actually be a really good pick with Spencer leaving.
Nothing... I just have no idea what goes through Mr. Jones mind when he drafts. That is what I was alluding to in my explination, your not missing much, lol. I do agree with you that it would be a good pick with Spencer leaving, which means... IDK...

Jones is apparently a brilliant financial mind, but IMO he needs to let someone else run the personnel department in Dallas. Just my .02, I have a hard time understanding his rationale at times in that department.
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Old 08-23-2013, 02:15 PM    (permalink
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Nothing... I just have no idea what goes through Mr. Jones mind when he drafts. That is what I was alluding to in my explination, your not missing much, lol. I do agree with you that it would be a good pick with Spencer leaving, which means... IDK...

Jones is apparently a brilliant financial mind, but IMO he needs to let someone else run the personnel department in Dallas. Just my .02, I have a hard time understanding his rationale at times in that department.
I think the talent that Dallas has brought in over the years has been comparable to other good teams. Nothing consistently horrendous. I just think they have made too many dumb mistakes. I can't fault the GM for putting this collection of talent together. I can fault him for high coaching turnover rate. But as far as the draft, most years I come away happy. 2009 was the only one I came away irate from.

Can't say I'm that high on Jeffcoat yet, but this season he has a chance to emerge. DE will be on the radar so it's a good match. Others will be DT, FS, OG.
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Old 08-26-2013, 06:20 AM    (permalink
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Give Teddy a target at the top of Rd2 and we're onto something.
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Derek Carr...

God damn it.

No offense, but your Raiders draft sucks.
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Old 09-13-2013, 11:38 AM    (permalink
Poz51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abaddon View Post
Give Teddy a target at the top of Rd2 and we're onto something.
I will keep that in mind :)
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Old 09-13-2013, 09:50 PM    (permalink
xstamper13
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Originally Posted by Poz51 View Post
Agreed, so I ask you this; Potential franchise QB, or sure bet defensive end, who do you take?
Does that question even need to be asked? The QB...EVERY SINGLE TIME!
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