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Old 06-05-2013, 12:59 PM    (permalink
mightytitan9
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The fact that anyone thinks Graham is better than JPP at anything at this point baffles me
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by DoughBoy View Post
ya know, Jake Locker is better than Andrew Luck.. he has a better completion percentage.
I think that's pretty much a given. I don't think anyone would argue with that at all. Of course, they could try. But they'd be wrong.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:03 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by mightytitan9 View Post
The fact that anyone thinks Graham is better than JPP at anything at this point baffles me
Group-think is a powerful thing. It's so much more dangerous to have an original thought than to stick with the herd.

Just listen to the media hype, and don't bother actually paying attention to games and watching individual players.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Maybe This Year Mayhew View Post
JPP has been good for several years. Assignment of the player is his role to rush the passer, drop in coverage. They do NOT take into account doubles, it's fact. They definie it as (sacks/hits/hurries)/total number of snaps for the pass rushing productivity grade.
Several years?

In 2010 both Graham and Pierre Paul had similar levels of production in their rookie seasons, and Graham missed the last few games due to his injuries. Graham definitely had a better rookie season than Pierre Paul, all told.

In 2011 Graham sat out and Pierre Paul had his ONE good year so far.

In 2012 Graham outproduced (sacks+hits+hurries) Pierre Paul in less snaps.

Where are these "several years of elite play" exactly?

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And it's common knowledge JPP was doubled more than Graham. You're insane if you think Graham was doubled close to the amount JPP was.
"Common knowledge" meaning "something we just assume because the Giants won a Super Bowl in 2011 and omg Pierre Paul jumped so high on that play and swatted the ball omg is teh elite"?
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Group-think is a powerful thing. It's so much more dangerous to have an original thought than to stick with the herd.

Just listen to the media hype, and don't bother actually paying attention to games and watching individual players.
Karl Malone said today that he wouldn't put MJ in his starting five all-time (original thought). While it is dangerous to have an original thought, it can also leave one looking rather foolish in the process.

Does Brandon Graham have the potential to be better than JPP? Yes he does but he hasn't proven to be the better player at this point in their careers.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Maybe This Year Mayhew View Post
JPP has been good for several years. Assignment of the player is his role to rush the passer, drop in coverage. They do NOT take into account doubles, it's fact. They definie it as (sacks/hits/hurries)/total number of snaps for the pass rushing productivity grade.
Also, do some research on PFF.

They have their numbers-based stats like Pass Rush Productivity, but they ALSO HAVE PLAYER GRADES BASED ON TAPE STUDY.

Two separate things.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by princefielder28 View Post
Karl Malone said today that he wouldn't put MJ in his starting five all-time (original thought). While it is dangerous to have an original thought, it can also leave one looking rather foolish in the process.

Does Brandon Graham have the potential to be better than JPP? Yes he does but he hasn't proven to be the better player at this point in their careers.
What has been proven:

- Pierre Paul has had one good year (2011). In 2010 he was mediocre, and in 2012 he was fairly average.

- Graham had a solid rookie year before his injury late in the season, and outplayed Pierre Paul that year.

- Graham outplayed Pierre Paul in 2012 in less snaps.

- Therefore, Graham has been a better player in 2 out of the 3 seasons that they have been in the league.

- And in the one season in which Pierre Paul outplayed Graham, Graham was sitting on the bench and didn't have a chance to compete.


So going forward will be the true test of both players. Right now the situation is not settled.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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This has a complete reverse SABR argument feel to it, and I find it hilarious.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:14 PM    (permalink
Maybe This Year Mayhew
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
What has been proven:

- Pierre Paul has had one good year (2011). In 2010 he was mediocre, and in 2012 he was fairly average.

- Graham had a solid rookie year before his injury late in the season, and outplayed Pierre Paul that year.

- Graham outplayed Pierre Paul in 2012 in less snaps.

- Therefore, Graham has been a better player in 2 out of the 3 seasons that they have been in the league.

- And in the one season in which Pierre Paul outplayed Graham, Graham was sitting on the bench and didn't have a chance to compete.


So going forward will be the true test of both players. Right now the situation is not settled.
Graham did not outplay Pierre Paul last year. Prove to me he was doubled more than JPP and JPP blew Graham out of the water in run defense. Hell prove to me Graham was double teamed on one snap.

Graham is a good part time player. Nothing more. Reminds me of 2011 Willie Young

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Old 06-05-2013, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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I don't even think Brandon Graham thinks he's better than JPP.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:24 PM    (permalink
Maybe This Year Mayhew
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Also, do some research on PFF.

They have their numbers-based stats like Pass Rush Productivity, but they ALSO HAVE PLAYER GRADES BASED ON TAPE STUDY.

Two separate things.
The tape study is based on the snap count and winning the battle only. I have PFF and they do not factor in beating double teams weighted stronger than beating single protection. If they did JPP would have a higher pass rush grade.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Maybe This Year Mayhew View Post
Graham did not outplay Pierre Paul last year. Prove to me he was doubled more than JPP and JPP blew Graham out of the water in run defense. Hell prove to me Graham was double teamed on one snap.

Graham is a good part time player. Nothing more. Reminds me of 2011 Willie Young
The onus of proving the "double team" excuse is on you. There is no statistical basis for this argument, as it is entirely circumstantial. And how can you say "JPP blew Graham out of the water in run defense"? You have no proof of this. Both teams were bad at stopping the run, so you can't use the team-based argument. You have to base run defense on grading individual plays, and PFF considers Graham a good run defender.

There's no reason to consider Graham as Willie Young any more than, say, Cameron Wake, who was a part time player and flashed elite talent and then became an elite top-5 player when he was given the starting job. For every Willie Young you bring up, I can bring up a Cameron Wake.

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Old 06-05-2013, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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I don't even think Brandon Graham thinks he's better than JPP.
He knows it and he's going to prove it this year too.

Better be prepared to eat some heaping hot piles of crow, BBD.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:27 PM    (permalink
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He knows it and he's going to prove it this year too.

Better be prepared to eat some heaping hot piles of crow, BBD.
Oh does he? He told you this? Please shed some insider light for us.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
He knows it and he's going to prove it this year too.

Better be prepared to eat some heaping hot piles of crow, BBD.
https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/grading/

Number 2. Based on one on one matchups. They don't factor in doubles. You lose. Graham is a good part time player nothing more.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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The onus of proving the "double team" excuse is on you. There is no statistical basis for this argument, as it is entirely circumstantial. And how can you say "JPP blew Graham out of the water in run defense"? You have no proof of this. Both teams were bad at stopping the run, so you can't use the team-based argument. You have to base run defense on grading individual plays, and PFF considers Graham a good run defender.

There's no reason to consider Graham as Willie Young any more than, say, Cameron Wake, who was a part time player and flashed elite talent and then became an elite top-5 player when he was given the starting job. For every Willie Young you bring up, I can bring up a Cameron Wake.
I provided proof from JPP and Coughlin himself how much extra focus was on him. JPP is doubled way more so you don't provide how much Graham was. You are wrong on the PFF grading as well. They don't factor in doubles and they don't have game tape. They watch the tv broadcasts.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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You are projecting Graham to be wake. Not so fast my friend. You have to wait until he's a full time player instead of your homeristic projections.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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https://www.profootballfocus.com/about/grading/

Number 2. Based on one on one matchups. They don't factor in doubles. You lose. Graham is a good part time player nothing more.
Uh, all this proves is that PFF doesn't factor in double teams.

You haven't proven to me that Pierre Paul actually faced significantly more double teams. Just because you "think" he did, doesn't mean he did.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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Question Acheten, if we really all are blind and are suffering from groupthink, can you provide a basic scouting report as to why Brandon Graham is better than JPP. Something that goes beyond "He had more pressures on a per snap basis!". What does he do specifically that makes him so good? Does he lock out well? Is he faster off the snap? Does he have a larger array of pass rush moves? Does he counter better? Does he play with better leverage?

It seems that everybody else here is trusting their eyes, while you're doing exactly what you're criticizing everybody else of doing. You have yet to display any kind of rationale as to why we're all wrong besides flaunting a singular statistic which is given a weighting and is mostly determined by something intangible.

The floor is your's let us know what about Brandon Graham's game makes him so good.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:34 PM    (permalink
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I provided proof from JPP and Coughlin himself how much extra focus was on him. JPP is doubled way more so you don't provide how much Graham was. You are wrong on the PFF grading as well. They don't factor in doubles and they don't have game tape. They watch the tv broadcasts.
The player and his head coach want to make him look better by providing a palatable reason for his lessened production? You don't say! Straight from the player himself, and his coach! Why, that must mean it's 100% accurate, right? No bias there!

And again, I personally don't believe that double teams are as big of an issue as people make them out to be. In fact, double teams have little ot no effect on end-results production, and most DEs face similar numbers of double teams. If you can prove to me otherwise, I'll recant my statement, but I doubt you can.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:37 PM    (permalink
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Question Acheten, if we really all are blind and are suffering from groupthink, can you provide a basic scouting report as to why Brandon Graham is better than JPP. Something that goes beyond "He had more pressures on a per snap basis!". What does he do specifically that makes him so good? Does he lock out well? Is he faster off the snap? Does he have a larger array of pass rush moves? Does he counter better? Does he play with better leverage?
You don't need anything more than production. The numbers never lie.

But if you do watch games, you tend to notice that he is extremely strong for a smaller guy, and consistently wins the leverage battle. At 6'1" and 270ish lbs, he uses his smaller stature to get up under the pads of OTs. He has one of the best bull-rushes of any DE in the league and can drive OTs back into the lap of the QB with regularlity. When the OT braces for the bull-rush, Graham has enough speed to bend the edge, and he has a solid spin move as well, although not an exceptional one.

His bull rush is definitely his bread and butter. His smaller stature ombined with his brutish strength gives him a huge edge in the leverage battle vs. taller OTs. His speed around the edge is good, and gives him a very strong change-up when the OT begins to expect the bull-rush. The spin move is decent and provides the third major change-up.

Of course, his smaller size is a double-edged sword. While it can help him win leverage battles more easily than a big tall lanky guy like Pierre Paul, if the OT has long arms and engulfs Graham, it can be easier to shut him down if that happens. Also, Graham's smaller size and shorter arms basically prevent him from ever being a force as a pass blocker (pass breakups) in the same mold as Watt or Pierre Paul.

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Old 06-05-2013, 01:39 PM    (permalink
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Acheten, I thought you were a Raiders fan? Why don't you ever talk about the Raiders?
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:41 PM    (permalink
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Bah.
THere's only two front 7 defenders in the NFCE the Redskins have specifically schemed against the last two seasons, i.e. double them or run away from them, and they were Demarcus Ware and Jason Pierre Paul.

You can keep Brandon Graham.

There's no team in the league that would take Graham over Paul, but I guess all the HCs and DCs in the NFL suffer from 'group think' too.lol

BTW most DEs aren't double teamed.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:41 PM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Acheten, I thought you were a Raiders fan? Why don't you ever talk about the Raiders?
Because this is a draft countdown forum and we concern ourselves primarily with evaluation of draft talent.

Graham was my favorite player from the 2010 draft and I've been a strong proponent of his for along time. I also am on record as saying that Pierre Paul would be a bust, and I still think it is possible to look back on his career and say "he had one good year and that was it".


This is a hot button issue for me as a draft evaluator.

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Old 06-05-2013, 01:44 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by FUNBUNCHER View Post
Bah.
THere's only two front 7 defenders in the NFCE the Redskins have specifically schemed against the last two seasons, i.e. double them or run away from them, and they were Demarcus Ware and Jason Pierre Paul.

You can keep Brandon Graham.
Have you actually read this anywhere, can you give me a link to where the Redskins coaching staff specifically states this?

If not, you are just talking out of your ass.

And even if they "schemed" for those two and not Graham, what does that mean? It doesn't provide any definitive assessment of those players' talent. It just means that one team, and one coaching staff, felt the need to rate Ware and Pierre Paul more dangerous to their specific offensive scheme at that time, in that game.

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There's no team in the league that would take Graham over Paul, but I guess all the HCs and DCs in the NFL suffer from 'group think' too.lol

BTW most DEs aren't double teamed.
How do you know there is no team in the league that would take Graham over Pierre Paul? Have you personally consulted with every GM and coach in the NFL? Have you even talked to ONE OF THEM about Graham? I doubt it.

Talking out of your ass again.
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