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Old 06-05-2013, 12:44 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Because this is a draft countdown forum and we concern ourselves primarily with evaluation of draft talent.

Graham was my favorite player from the 2010 draft and I've been a strong proponent of his for along time. I also am on record as saying that Pierre Paul would be a bust, and I still think it is possible to look back on his career and say "he had one good year and that was it"

This is a hot button issue for me as a draft evaluator.
Ok, so what are your thoughts on the Raiders draft then?
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:47 PM    (permalink
princefielder28
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Are there any defensive ends/pass rushers in the league better than Brandon Graham?
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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Ok, so what are your thoughts on the Raiders draft then?
Thought they reached for Hayden because there were decent DBs in the 2nd round without medical issues.

Meh on the Menelik Watson pick. Not sold on him as a quality OT prospect, but it filled a position of need.

Love the Sio Moore pick. He was one of my big sleepers as LB prospect along with Chase Thomas. He'll fit perfectly as a 3-4 rush OLB in the new defense/.

Hate the Tyler Wilson pick.

The rest of the draft was just roster filler.
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by princefielder28 View Post
Are there any defensive ends/pass rushers in the league better than Brandon Graham?
Last year, Graham was the best pass rusher on a per snap basis of any defensive player.

He had the highest Pass Rush Productivity of any defensive player. So based on that stat, no.
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:51 PM    (permalink
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Thought they reached for Hayden because there were decent DBs in the 2nd round without medical issues.

Meh on the Menelik Watson pick. Not sold on him as a quality OT prospect, but it filled a position of need.

Love the Sio Moore pick. He was one of my big sleepers as LB prospect along with Chase Thomas. He'll fit perfectly as a 3-4 rush OLB in the new defense/.

Hate the Tyler Wilson pick.

The rest of the draft was just roster filler.
Tyler Wilson is gonna be your future and kick ass so you better learn to like him.
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:52 PM    (permalink
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Tyler Wilson is gonna be your future and kick ass so you better learn to like him.
Hell no.

I am big believer in Pryor. I still think he can rip the starting job away from everyone else.

Of course, this all could have been avoided if they had drafted Colin Kaepernick in 2011:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nfl.../?sct=uk_wr_a2

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Not to be a wise guy, but figure the Patriots had the same pricetag for the Raiders that they did for San Francisco: second- and third-round picks in 2011 and a third-rounder in 2012. Let's see what the Raiders could have traded to move up to get Kaepernick:

Center Stefen Wisniewski (second round, 2011). Had a so-so rookie year at left guard, then a slightly better year when switched to center in 2012. Center of the future for the Raiders, but not likely a Pro Bowl player.

Cornerback DeMarcus Van Dyke (third round, 2011). Played about 30 percent of the snaps as a backup corner in 2011. Released in the last cut last year.

Quarterback Terrelle Pryor (third round, 2012, with pick assigned to Supplemental Draft in 2011). He has thrown 30 passes in mop-up duty in two years. Doesn't appear to have much chance to be the Raiders quarterback of the future.

Would you, Raiders fans, trade Wisniewski, Van Dyke and Pryor for Kaepernick?

Thought so.
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:56 PM    (permalink
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Have you actually read this anywhere, can you give me a link to where the Redskins coaching staff specifically states this?

If not, you are just talking out of your ass.

And even if they "schemed" for those two and not Graham, what does that mean? It doesn't provide any definitive assessment of those players' talent. It just means that one team, and one coaching staff, felt the need to rate Ware and Pierre Paul more dangerous to their specific offensive scheme at that time, in that game.



How do you know there is no team in the league that would take Graham over Pierre Paul? Have you personally consulted with every GM and coach in the NFL? Have you even talked to ONE OF THEM about Graham? I doubt it.

Talking out of your ass again.

Who's talking out of their sphincter??
I live in the DMV and hear the interviews with Shanny and Haslett on Mike's coach's show prior to gameday.

They gush and fret about Demarcus Ware AND JPP talking endlessly about how special they are as pass rushers and how disruptive they can be to the offense if they don't get a hat(s) on them.

The name 'Brandon Graham' has never come out of their mouths in front of a camera or microphone.

Yeah it's anecdotal because I don't have transcripts but it's still factual.

Why do I have to survey every NFL franchise to understand the obvious??

No NFL personnel man who gets a paycheck from a team thinks Brandon Graham is a better 43 DE than JPP. Truth is the truth.
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Old 06-05-2013, 12:58 PM    (permalink
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Are there any defensive ends/pass rushers in the league better than Brandon Graham?
NO.

JJ Watt cries alone.

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Old 06-05-2013, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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NO.

JJ Watt cries alone.

Yeah, that JJ Watt guy is kinda good for starters....
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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Who's talking out of their sphincter??
I live in the DMV and hear the interviews with Shanny and Haslett on Mike's coach's show prior to gameday.
Ok, so you heard something on a radio show. I heard a radio host call Tim Tebow the greatest QB that ever lived. Does that mean it's true, or even a salient point?

Quote:
They gush and fret about Demarcus Ware AND JPP talking endlessly about how special they are as pass rushers and how disruptive they can be to the offense if they don't get a hat(s) on them.

The name 'Brandon Graham' has never come out of their mouths in front of a camera or microphone.

Yeah it's anecdotal because I don't have transcripts but it's still factual.

Why do I have to survey every NFL franchise to understand the obvious??

No NFL personnel man who gets a paycheck from a team thinks Brandon Graham is a better 43 DE than JPP. Truth is the truth.
So even if this is an accurate reflection of the mindset of the Redskins coaching staff, which I am skeptical of because "Joe Schmoe sits at his desk and listens to a radio show" is telling me so...

how does one coaching staff, with one specific scheme (zone blocking run scheme) have complete say about a player's talent as a player? If Mike Shanahan felt more threatened by Jason Pierre Paul for one game than Brandon Graham, wonderful. That doesn't really amount to a hill of beans in the long run.

And your last statement is ludicrous. Because you know exactly how every NFL personnel man feels about a particular player.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:06 PM    (permalink
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Shanny's show is a half show on local TV in D.C. It's a one on one interview with the HC. Matter of fact other than Babin he's never mentioned an Eagles' DE.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:08 PM    (permalink
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I don't even think Brandon Graham thinks he's better than JPP.
This is my favorite part of this thread. If Brandon Graham found it even he'd be laughing his ass off at AcheTen. How someone can be so persistently wrong is a feat.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:10 PM    (permalink
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Shanny's show is a half show on local TV in D.C. It's a one on one interview with the HC. Matter of fact other than Babin he's never mentioned an Eagles' DE.
Well, then, if Mike Shanahan has never mentioned an Eagles DE, they must be all worthless trash!

Why, I don't remember Mike Shanahan ever mentioning the name of JJ Watt, either. He must be bad too!

Hey, let's check to see if Mike Shanahan has ever uttered the name of the Aaron Rodgers. If he has, then maybe he's good. If he hasn't, then clearly he is trash too!

Do you know if Mike Shanahan has ever said anything about Gummy Bears? I really want to know if they are worth eating.

Also, find out if Mike Shanahan ever mentioned something about the Honda Civic. I'm thinking of buying one and want to know if it's garbage or not.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:11 PM    (permalink
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This is my favorite part of this thread. If Brandon Graham found it even he'd be laughing his ass off at AcheTen. How someone can be so persistently wrong is a feat.
Yeah, because talented NFL players don't believe in themselves and will gladly capitulate to a rival's "success", even if that rival has only had *one* year where he was clearly better.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:12 PM    (permalink
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No NFL personnel man who gets a paycheck from a team thinks Brandon Graham is a better 43 DE than JPP. Truth is the truth.
Already a built in excuse, Graham is switching to playing in a 3-4 this year.

There are stats to back up everything, there are excuses to back up everything.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:12 PM    (permalink
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Last year, Graham was the best pass rusher on a per snap basis of any defensive player.

He had the highest Pass Rush Productivity of any defensive player. So based on that stat, no.
Well played senor, well played. I legit laughed out loud for at least a good minute at this comment.
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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Well, then, if Mike Shanahan has never mentioned an Eagles DE, they must be all worthless trash!

Why, I don't remember Mike Shanahan ever mentioning the name of JJ Watt, either. He must be bad too!

Hey, let's check to see if Mike Shanahan has ever uttered the name of the Aaron Rodgers. If he has, then maybe he's good. If he hasn't, then clearly he is trash too!

Do you know if Mike Shanahan has ever said anything about Gummy Bears? I really want to know if they are worth eating.

Also, find out if Mike Shanahan ever mentioned something about the Honda Civic. I'm thinking of buying one and want to know if it's garbage or not.
Does someone need a timeout???
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:14 PM    (permalink
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Already a built in excuse, Graham is switching to playing in a 3-4 this year.

There are stats to back up everything, there are excuses to back up everything.
I don't need an excuse to defuse this statement of his.

He basically said that he knows what every NFL personnel man in the league thinks about a particular player.

The sheer stupidity of that statement doesn't need me to manufacture excuses to counter it.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:16 PM    (permalink
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Yeah, because talented NFL players don't believe in themselves and will gladly capitulate to a rival's "success", even if that rival has only had *one* year where he was clearly better.
Because NFL players who aren't even Starters aren't always so dumb as to believe they are better than one of the premiere players at their position who has had two phenomenal years out of the 3 that he has played so far, and that as a player everyone expected to take long to develop because he was raw. Even pro athletes often have that degree of self awareness.
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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I don't need an excuse to defuse this statement of his.

He basically said that he knows what every NFL personnel man in the league thinks about a particular player.

The sheer stupidity of that statement doesn't need me to manufacture excuses to counter it.
You bring this upon yourself. Your argument is flawed, so people counter with other flawed arguments.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:17 PM    (permalink
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I don't need an excuse to defuse this statement of his.

He basically said that he knows what every NFL personnel man in the league thinks about a particular player.

The sheer stupidity of that statement doesn't need me to manufacture excuses to counter it.
I'd like you to prove that his statement is wrong.
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JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
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Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:19 PM    (permalink
AcheTen (Thumper)
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Originally Posted by Rosebud View Post
I'd like you to prove that his statement is wrong.
I don't need to, because it is a completely specious statement from the start.

He hasn't spoken to a single NFL personnel man. He can't make a completely false statement like that with any hope of validity.
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:19 PM    (permalink
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Hey guys, did you know Brandon Graham was better than JJ Watt last year?
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Damix View Post
You bring this upon yourself. Your argument is flawed, so people counter with other flawed arguments.
Actually, no, my argument is not flawed.

I broke down Graham based on stats, yearly comparisons to Pierre Paul, historical touchstones, and also went into detail about specific game-footage observations of Graham's game.

Everyone else in here is just like "OMG JPP jumped so high and OMG teh Giants won teh Super Bowl and he's a freak you are stupid for even questioning the freakiness of JPP and everyone else says it so it must be true"
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Old 06-05-2013, 01:21 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
I don't need to, because it is a completely specious statement from the start.

He hasn't spoken to a single NFL personnel man. He can't make a completely false statement like that with any hope of validity.
Sure you do, you're the one trying to prove that we're all suffering from group thinking that is tricking our eyes when we watch JPP. So the onus is on you to prove the consensus incorrect. And if you can't even provide a single NFL decision maker who would pick Graham over JPP then why should we think your argument has even the least bit of merit?
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
JPP is a better and more productive player than Brandon Graham
Quote:
Originally Posted by abaddon41_80 View Post
Is Shaun Hill a top 10 QB? Definitely not. Is he a top 20 one? Almost certainly.
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Originally Posted by JBCX View Post
Most misleading 10+ sack season EVER.
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