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Old 06-03-2013, 09:18 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Originally Posted by Denver Bronco56 View Post
Ok so again he has had all the regular season success you can ask for (just like Peyton Manning) but when he gets to the post season he cant win it all, and the blame goes to his D or lack of weapons... the same team that had no trouble during the regular season..


Im pretty sure that can be said for Peyton Manning also.... face it since they have won their last SB he hasnt done anything more that Peyton Manning has... going to a SB isnt want sets a QB apart it is winning it...

Blaming the Pats not winning their SB's because of a lack of D or mediocre weapons is the exact same excuse the Colts had during Manning's tenure there.
I'm not blaming his losses on the lack of D or weapons though. I'm saying he played with that situation yes, but if you ask me personally, I think he lost those games bc he just didn't play well.

Honestly, he didnt play well in his losses, except for the 2 SB losses, I think he played well in both of those games, he just lost fair and square both times for different reasons.

And I just don't think it's fair to compare it to Peyton's lack of playoff success, bc Brady has had more playoff success than Peyton during that span. He broke the record for most playoff wins with 17. Peyton's playoff record isn't even close to that.

The ONLY reason why we're even having this discussion is bc Brady didn't win a SB during this span. But the knocks against Peyton and Dan Marino aren't so black and white. They didn't just not win SBs during their respect playoff slumps, but they were also notorious for being 1 and done. I think there's a big difference.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:26 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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I understand the one and done arguement, but in the end losing is losing and the only thing that matters is a lombardi trophy...

Since Spygate, since becoming an elite QB, since the Pats went Offensive based instead of winning with solid Defence, since Eli Manning decided to pick up his Brothers slack .... haha idk i just think Brady gets a pass because has has won multiple SBs....


I think Brady is very good, I think Marino, Manning and Elway are very good also... but in the end its SB's that matter not regular season success.

So until Brady wins a SB and ends a 10 year drought, I think he has been nothing more that a regular season success during the last decade much like peyton manning and Dan Marino


do people remember the 90's Bills in the same sense as say the 90's Cowboys? NO... making it to a SB and winning it are different things... so no matter if say Brady wins a game or two in the playoffs before getting beat by Eli, it is really no different than losing the 1st game...

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Old 06-03-2013, 09:42 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Denver Bronco56 View Post
Ok so again he has had all the regular season success you can ask for (just like Peyton Manning) but when he gets to the post season he cant win it all, and the blame goes to his D or lack of weapons... the same team that had no trouble during the regular season..


Im pretty sure that can be said for Peyton Manning also.... face it since they have won their last SB he hasnt done anything more that Peyton Manning has... going to a SB isnt want sets a QB apart it is winning it...

Blaming the Pats not winning their SB's because of a lack of D or mediocre weapons is the exact same excuse the Colts had during Manning's tenure there.
I don't think anyone blames the defense or lack of weapons at all for the Superbowl losses.

Firstly, in 2007 he had Moss, Welker and Stallworth. To this day that is still his best ever WR group.

In 2011 he had Welker, Gronk and Hernandez.

The defense wasn't very good but actually stiffened up in the playoffs.

It's one of those things when you get to the end of the year. Every team you play is going to be good, you can't slip up and often the team to have the ball last with meaningful time left wins. In 2007 Plaxico scored his TD to put the Giants up with 35 seconds left. In 2011 Bradshaw scored with 57 seconds left.

Sure blame Brady because the Pats offense wasn't the same juggernaut as it was during the regular season, but in both Superbowls they were winning with less than 1 minute remaining.

Also, bear this in mind. Since the Patriots last won a Superbowl Tom Brady has 8 playoff wins. He also missed basically the entire 2008 season. There are only 2 QBs in the NFL with more playoff wins than Brady in that timeframe and that is Joe Flacco and Ben Roethlisberger.

Peyton Manning since 2005 has 6 postseason wins including winning a Superbowl and losing a Superbowl.
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Old 06-03-2013, 09:47 AM    (permalink
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I don't think anyone blames the defense or lack of weapons at all for the Superbowl losses.

Firstly, in 2007 he had Moss, Welker and Stallworth. To this day that is still his best ever WR group.

In 2011 he had Welker, Gronk and Hernandez.

The defense wasn't very good but actually stiffened up in the playoffs.

It's one of those things when you get to the end of the year. Every team you play is going to be good, you can't slip up and often the team to have the ball last with meaningful time left wins. In 2007 Plaxico scored his TD to put the Giants up with 35 seconds left. In 2011 Bradshaw scored with 57 seconds left.

Sure blame Brady because the Pats offense wasn't the same juggernaut as it was during the regular season, but in both Superbowls they were winning with less than 1 minute remaining.

Also, bear this in mind. Since the Patriots last won a Superbowl Tom Brady has 8 playoff wins. He also missed basically the entire 2008 season. There are only 2 QBs in the NFL with more playoff wins than Brady in that timeframe and that is Joe Flacco and Ben Roethlisberger.

Peyton Manning since 2005 has 6 postseason wins including winning a Superbowl and losing a Superbowl.
And that's why I don't think you can say that he's been Peyton Manning during this streak. It's not accurate. Brady has been much more successful in the playoffs during this span.
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Old 06-03-2013, 01:28 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Denver Bronco56 View Post
Ok so again he has had all the regular season success you can ask for (just like Peyton Manning) but when he gets to the post season he cant win it all, and the blame goes to his D or lack of weapons... the same team that had no trouble during the regular season..


Im pretty sure that can be said for Peyton Manning also.... face it since they have won their last SB he hasnt done anything more that Peyton Manning has... going to a SB isnt want sets a QB apart it is winning it...

Blaming the Pats not winning their SB's because of a lack of D or mediocre weapons is the exact same excuse the Colts had during Manning's tenure there.
No it isn't. Indy had stars on both sides of the ball, pretty well during Peton whole career, from Harrison, Wayne and Clark as receivers, he started with an all pro LT in Tarik Glenn and an all pro OC in Jeff Satuday. On defense, he had Dwight Feeney and Robert Mathis and Bob Sanders and a great FG kicker in Vinatiei.

With Denver, he has a very solid OL, including all pro Ryan Clady, excellent WR's, A future HoF LBer in Miller, Dumervil, and Champ Bailey. Peyton has never played on a team devoid of veteran talent.

He has zero excuses for his horrible playoff record.

Brady has had 1 true #1 WR during his whole career and he only had him for 1 season, Randy Moss who broke receiving TD's record that season and Brady broke the total TD record with 50 for a season. Just to prove what he could do if NE ever gave him a #1 WR on a consistent basis.

Brady has played with only one veteran OLman Mankins and with only one veteran stud on defense in Wilfolk, yet, he continues to take NE to Super Bowls. I think it is safe to say that as NE's very young defense matures, they will return to be Super Bowl champs once again, while you can give Peyton all the talent in the world, and I don't think you'll see Denver make it under his leadership, last season was a classic Peyton performance, solid regular season followed by doing zip in the playoffs and as a Denver fan, you had better get used to it because that is what your team's future holds.
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Old 06-03-2013, 04:07 PM    (permalink
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The whole Brady hasn't won since he had a defense thing doesn't make sense bc he still went to 2 SBs since then, had an undefeated regular season, and 2 of his 3 SBs he didn't have a run game.

So yeah.

Not buying it.

And let's debunk this myth that the Dolphins were Dan Marino and a bunch of scrubs. Bc that's simply not true. Marino just didn't get it done. He lost a lot of winnable playoff games.
I totally agree. And the truth behind those Dolphin teams is that only once did Marino win a playoff game when the opponent ran the ball more times than the Dolphins did. But EVERY time the Dolphins ran the ball more times than their opponent in a playoff game they won. That tells me that Marino was as much of the problem as he was the solution. His way didn't get them a ring.
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Old 06-03-2013, 04:11 PM    (permalink
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No it isn't. Indy had stars on both sides of the ball, pretty well during Peton whole career, from Harrison, Wayne and Clark as receivers, he started with an all pro LT in Tarik Glenn and an all pro OC in Jeff Satuday. On defense, he had Dwight Feeney and Robert Mathis and Bob Sanders and a great FG kicker in Vinatiei.

With Denver, he has a very solid OL, including all pro Ryan Clady, excellent WR's, A future HoF LBer in Miller, Dumervil, and Champ Bailey. Peyton has never played on a team devoid of veteran talent.

He has zero excuses for his horrible playoff record.

Brady has had 1 true #1 WR during his whole career and he only had him for 1 season, Randy Moss who broke receiving TD's record that season and Brady broke the total TD record with 50 for a season. Just to prove what he could do if NE ever gave him a #1 WR on a consistent basis.

Brady has played with only one veteran OLman Mankins and with only one veteran stud on defense in Wilfolk, yet, he continues to take NE to Super Bowls. I think it is safe to say that as NE's very young defense matures, they will return to be Super Bowl champs once again, while you can give Peyton all the talent in the world, and I don't think you'll see Denver make it under his leadership, last season was a classic Peyton performance, solid regular season followed by doing zip in the playoffs and as a Denver fan, you had better get used to it because that is what your team's future holds.
Manning came into a new situtation, he had no chemistry with any of the Broncos players and was learning an entire new offense....

A little early to call Von Miller a future HOF... Dummervil is not a HOF player... The only one that could hang them up today and be considered would be Champ...


In regards to the Patriots.. Lets not forget Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Rodney Harrison, Junior Seu, Asante Samuel, Richard Seymor ... ALL VERY GOOD defensive players.
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:42 PM    (permalink
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I'm going to go all homer and just debunk this now.

Brady is the system!!!

Do you know how many times the Patriots offensive system has changed through Brady's career?

Which type of system QB is Brady?

Is he only good because he plays in a system which limits his throws and allows the defense to take over?

Is he only good because he plays in a system which has him throw 35+ times a game, many being vertical passes and have 50TD passes?

Is he only good because he plays in a system which forces him to exploit the field horizontally with a slot WR and TEs due to no outside receiving threat?

As far as being a game manager...yes that's what he was to start his career, however a great QB needs to be able to find a balance between a game manager and someone who tries to take over all the time. You think the Lions wouldn't prefer Matthew Stafford to be more of a game manager?

And even in saying that, in 2 of Brady's complete years in his career he has averaged less than 30 attempts per game. And not to get to in depth on stats, but how can a guy who throws at 66% for 5235 yards, 39 TDs and 12 INTs be considered a game manager?

And to answer those who have said the Pats haven't won a Superbowl since Spygate...well guess what neither have 25 other teams. But the Pats were in 2 Superbowls. The Giants won in 2007 with what will possibly go down as the most miraculous escape, throw and catch in NFL history, and that's not forgetting that Asante Samuel let a sure thing INT slip thrugh his hands. In 2011, if Welker held on to a (difficult) catch the game was over. Then there needed to be an inch perfect throw and catch from Manning to Manningham to keep the Giants alive. So lets not act like since Spygate the Pats have sucked and ****.

They lost 2 Superbowls by a combined 7 points and due to some miraculous plays which the Giants t their credit were able to convert and the Pats weren't able to stop.

Give any arguments as to why Brady isn't a top whatever QB you want, but to say he is a game manager is probably about 8 years too late and the Superbowl argument is ridiculous.
1. I don't think that the systems have changed all that much. It has been the focus of the offense that has changed.

2. Here is a telling stat: In 2006, he had 24 TD's. In 2007, he had 50, but with a completely upgraded core of WR's (including Randy Moss, who had 25 TD catches that year). How does Brady get all the credit for that?

3. Another thing that helps Brady and New England is the fact that they play in one of the weakest divisions in NFL history, which is what the AFC East has been for most of the last 12 years. And, even though they were found out by Spygate, I think they still benefit from what they picked up from other teams by filming them.

And, when Doug Flutie was a backup with NE in 2005, he found out that the plays would come into the helmet longer than the allotted time. Dan LeBatard wanted to talk to him about that, but he declined.

4. Yes, the Giants did sort-of get lucky on their final drive of SB 42, but people forget what happened on the drive before the Pats took the lead. Eli Manning missed a wide open Plaxico Burress for a first down around midfield. They get that, the Tyree catch and the Samuel miss doesn't happen.
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:40 AM    (permalink
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1. I don't think that the systems have changed all that much. It has been the focus of the offense that has changed.

2. Here is a telling stat: In 2006, he had 24 TD's. In 2007, he had 50, but with a completely upgraded core of WR's (including Randy Moss, who had 25 TD catches that year). How does Brady get all the credit for that?

3. Another thing that helps Brady and New England is the fact that they play in one of the weakest divisions in NFL history, which is what the AFC East has been for most of the last 12 years. And, even though they were found out by Spygate, I think they still benefit from what they picked up from other teams by filming them.

And, when Doug Flutie was a backup with NE in 2005, he found out that the plays would come into the helmet longer than the allotted time. Dan LeBatard wanted to talk to him about that, but he declined.

4. Yes, the Giants did sort-of get lucky on their final drive of SB 42, but people forget what happened on the drive before the Pats took the lead. Eli Manning missed a wide open Plaxico Burress for a first down around midfield. They get that, the Tyree catch and the Samuel miss doesn't happen.
1. If you don't think the systems have changed then you clearly haven't been watching the Patriots for the last 10 years. Hell, take the difference between McDaniels and O'Brien. The Pats went from a wide open 3 or 4 WR set which focused on getting vertical to running multiple route combinations out of a few formations. Yes the focus changed but with that the scheme dramatically altered. You could not watch the 2007 team and then the 2010 team and said it was similar.

2. Firstly, Moss had 23 TDs, secondly, nobody is saying it was all 100% Brady, and thirdly, the offense opened up so much more and the Pats took wwwwwaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy more shots down the field than they ever did...you know when the offensive system changed.

3. Jets have been to 2 AFCCGs, Dolphins have won the division. The only consistently poor team has been the Bills who have never really been awful. Plus there is a parity in the league. A few years ago the NFC West was commonly referred to as the NFC Worst. Plus, the Patriots dominance directly corresponds to the other teams not having success. And, you think they still benefit from Spygate? With the attrition of coaches, changes of defenses, changes from signals to helmet comms to defenders I think that is one of the most absurd things I have heard.

4. Near misses happen all the time in football. The Patriots had chances in both Superbowls as well. Both teams missed good chances, half chances and slim chances, but the Giants were the ones who could get it done in the end. That's what football is all about.
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:19 AM    (permalink
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I think some people are seeing my point, and other are again blindly following Brady.


1 = Guys he has gotten better since he was drafted OBVIOUSLY... but when he became the focus on the team and the team was offensively driven they havent won a SB.

2 = BB is at fault here, he doesnt keep the proven players, whether its a money thing or his ego thinking he can develope whoever... it is a huge reason why Brady is always playing with new people and having to learn new systems because they cant year in and year out build something that is tailored to their personell...

3 = The AFC East over the last 10 years has been fairly weak, minus the flash in the pan success known as Rex Ryan, and the flukey Dolphins win.... the Patriots are still and have been the flagship team of the division.




It is not Brady's fault he isnt given a consistent set of weapons, but at the same time he is producing in the regular season so in my mind just like Manning and Marino he isnt able to translate it to SB wins... getting there and winning it are the huge difference.

Outside of the Bills in the 90's no one really remembers the losing team or gives them credit... so this he atleast go there argument is flawed because the difference is having a ring and trophy that says you won. No one plays the game to come in 2nd place
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:00 PM    (permalink
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Manning came into a new situtation, he had no chemistry with any of the Broncos players and was learning an entire new offense....

A veteran like Peyton doesn't take long to build chemistry with his team and adjust to some minor changes in offensive philosophy. They still built the offense around Manning's strengths.

A little early to call Von Miller a future HOF... Dummervil is not a HOF player... The only one that could hang them up today and be considered would be Champ...

I only suggested Miller is a future HoFer not Dummervil and I'd be willing to give odds M will make it.


In regards to the Patriots.. Lets not forget Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Rodney Harrison, Junior Seu, Asante Samuel, Richard Seymor ... ALL VERY GOOD defensive players.
Yes, they were there for their early success but they are all long gone now and Brady is stuck will a very young team which easily explains his lack of rings recently.
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Old 06-04-2013, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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Yes, they were there for their early success but they are all long gone now and Brady is stuck will a very young team which easily explains his lack of rings recently.
Lets not forget that Manning you know was still dealing with the whole rehabbing of his arm and getting it stronger.... Learning an Offense and working with 10 NEW people.


So Brady dealt with a couple new people here and there... Manning was re-learning his self, his new teammates and a whole new playbook.


** As much as i like Miller, 2 great years doesnt mean HOF... thats the problem nowadays, people are way to quick to give some one a pass to the HOF after a season or two.
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Old 06-04-2013, 02:34 PM    (permalink
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And let's debunk this myth that the Dolphins were Dan Marino and a bunch of scrubs. Bc that's simply not true. Marino just didn't get it done. He lost a lot of winnable playoff games.
Well...I don't think it was an Archie Manning situation, but at the same time the majority of his career he didn't play with that many notable players. On both sides of the ball.
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:53 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AntoinCD View Post
1. If you don't think the systems have changed then you clearly haven't been watching the Patriots for the last 10 years. Hell, take the difference between McDaniels and O'Brien. The Pats went from a wide open 3 or 4 WR set which focused on getting vertical to running multiple route combinations out of a few formations. Yes the focus changed but with that the scheme dramatically altered. You could not watch the 2007 team and then the 2010 team and said it was similar.

2. Firstly, Moss had 23 TDs, secondly, nobody is saying it was all 100% Brady, and thirdly, the offense opened up so much more and the Pats took wwwwwaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy more shots down the field than they ever did...you know when the offensive system changed.

3. Jets have been to 2 AFCCGs, Dolphins have won the division. The only consistently poor team has been the Bills who have never really been awful. Plus there is a parity in the league. A few years ago the NFC West was commonly referred to as the NFC Worst. Plus, the Patriots dominance directly corresponds to the other teams not having success. And, you think they still benefit from Spygate? With the attrition of coaches, changes of defenses, changes from signals to helmet comms to defenders I think that is one of the most absurd things I have heard.

4. Near misses happen all the time in football. The Patriots had chances in both Superbowls as well. Both teams missed good chances, half chances and slim chances, but the Giants were the ones who could get it done in the end. That's what football is all about.
Point 1: I think the focus changed more than the system. In 2010, they went away from Randy Moss (who they released), and they went more to rookies Gronk and Hernandez. They also changed the focus somewhat last year, with more carries and yards for Ridley, but it is the same basic system. I think I heard the term "amoeba offense" used once in describing New England, and it is apt.

Point 2: 23 or 25, it doesn't matter. He still had about half his TD's that year. And, again, it was the focus of the offense that changed, not the system.

Point 3: In 2009, the Jets only went to the AFC Title Game because the Colts gave them the game in Week 16 of the 09 season. They didn't want Manning getting hurt, so they took him out. If the Colts needed that win, the Jets finish at 8-8 or 7-9 and out of the postseason.

In 2010, the Jets did beat NE in the playoffs, but they kind-of got lucky against the Colts in Round 1, and the Pats blew their doors off in December.

Also, the 08 Dolphins were a mirage. The year before, they were 1-15, for crying out loud. What happened to them in the playoffs?

Since 2001, there have been three years (02, 05, 09) where nobody won 11 games in the East. Also, the Pats are the only AFC East team in that time period to have a 12+ win season (they have had seven since 2001).

So, take away the Colt mess-ups, and the Wildcat, and the AFC East has been nothing the last 12 seasons.

Point 4: I know they do. That wasn't the point. The point was that the Samuel INT miss and the Tyree play wasn't as big of a deal that everyone makes it out to be, and that the Giants weren't as lucky as some think. Besides that miss, they missed out on points in the red zone in the first half because of a INT off of a Steve Smith bobble.

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Old 06-05-2013, 05:27 AM    (permalink
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Point 1: I think the focus changed more than the system. In 2010, they went away from Randy Moss (who they released), and they went more to rookies Gronk and Hernandez. They also changed the focus somewhat last year, with more carries and yards for Ridley, but it is the same basic system. I think I heard the term "amoeba offense" used once in describing New England, and it is apt.
I have a few problems with this post.

Firstly, what consitutes a system in your eyes? Is it the way they attack defenses? Is it the general philosophy? Is it the terminology? Is it the route combinations? Because the Pats have changed all of those things in recent years.

In the early part of the last decade the Pats used to run to set up the pass. They utilised FBs more than they have since about 2007.

The terminology has drastically changed. The Pats are the first NFL to go to single word play calls. Listen to Brady at the line shout "Rita" or "Alabama" etc. As part of the up tempo, hurry up offense they cannot afford to have complex play calls as they go to the line.

The Pats have always run option routes, however since Moss they haven't been able to use the 9 to clear out defenders. A common pass play the Pats used in 2007 was Moss would run the 9, Welker would line up on the same side and run a quick out, whip, drag etc depending on coverage. Stallworth would line up wide the other side and run a slant while the RB would release to the flat to that side.

Now the Pats still use some of the same concepts, such a slant/flat to one side, however they can't stretch the defense deep therefore it doesn't have the same effectiveness. The defense can now afford to cheat up to the line of scrimmage and not push their safeties back. What they do often now is attack levels to exploit defenses.

Take it they are in 1 RB, 2 TE personnel with Lloyd outside and Welker in the slot (different sides). Lloyd was often used as a decoy to run a sideline route to basically eliminate that CB, and if the safety cheated to the middle of the field or the TEs Lloyd would continue deep in single coverage - see the Bills game from this year when Gilmore was all over him. Welker would run a route across the face of the LBs forcing them to step up to him. Gronk or Hernandez would run an intermediate in route behind the LBs and in front of the safeties while the other would run up the seam. The RB would release into the flat.

What this was designed to do is make defenders to make quick decisions and give Brady straightforward reads. If the safety to Lloyd's side doesn't play him with respect then Lloyd would go deep. If the LBs played soft zone then Brady would throw to Welker with the hopes he would make a man miss and pick up yac. If the LBs played tight then Brady would read the safeties and go with either Gronk or Hernandez. Or alternatively, if the Mike was in man coverage with the back he would go that way as it is a mismatch (ie - the pass to Vereen against NYJ on Thanksgiving).

In 2007 the Pats offense was predicated on Moss taking rolling coverage which opened up the middle of the field. In 2012 the Pats offense couldn't stretch the field vertically so they worked horizontally. The latter offense was more of a ball control offense. The Pats also based a lot of their offense last year off of strong play action. In 2007 Brady was predominantly in shotgun and play action wasn't as effective as the run threat wasn't as strong.

So to sum up;

The Pats ability to attack defenses has changed
Their personnel has changed
Their terminology has changed
Their tempo has changed
Their route combinations have changed
Their philosophy has changed

The only constants are that they run option routes and Tom Brady
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:09 AM    (permalink
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So to sum up;

The Pats ability to attack defenses has changed
Their personnel has changed
Their terminology has changed
Their tempo has changed
Their route combinations have changed
Their philosophy has changed

The only constants are that they run option routes and Tom Brady
True. So what's the point though?

Everyone's offenses evolve over time.
Everyone's personnel changes from year to year.
You can't stay the way, have to adapt... so do defenses.

The main point they are trying to make here is that it's been a long time since the Patriots were champions, and they were not a pass-happy oriented team back then.

Since they became a pass-oriented offense, whether it's the long ball year with the SuperFreak or the dynamic duo TE's, they've A) been great but B) have not won it all..... so they're in a same boat as a lot of QBs like Rodgers, Manning, Brees.

All great. But it's hard to win it all.... usually the team who has the defense step up wins it all. Or in the case of the Saints, gets Favre and the Vikings to commit 4 or 5 gift turnovers.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:12 AM    (permalink
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True. So what's the point though?

Everyone's offenses evolve over time.
Everyone's personnel changes from year to year.
You can't stay the way, have to adapt... so do defenses.

The main point they are trying to make here is that it's been a long time since the Patriots were champions, and they were not a pass-happy oriented team back then.

Since they became a pass-oriented offense, whether it's the long ball year with the SuperFreak or the dynamic duo TE's, they've A) been great but B) have not won it all..... so they're in a same boat as a lot of QBs like Rodgers, Manning, Brees.

All great. But it's hard to win it all.... usually the team who has the defense step up wins it all. Or in the case of the Saints, gets Favre and the Vikings to commit 4 or 5 gift turnovers.
The point he's trying to make is to disprove this ridiculous notion that Brady is somehow a system qb who's limited physically and benefits from a "system" that inflates his ability.

As stated by many in this thread, that notion is absolutely ridiculous and not true at all. Brady is not a system qb.
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Old 06-05-2013, 08:20 AM    (permalink
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True. So what's the point though?

Everyone's offenses evolve over time.
Everyone's personnel changes from year to year.
You can't stay the way, have to adapt... so do defenses.

The main point they are trying to make here is that it's been a long time since the Patriots were champions, and they were not a pass-happy oriented team back then.

Since they became a pass-oriented offense, whether it's the long ball year with the SuperFreak or the dynamic duo TE's, they've A) been great but B) have not won it all..... so they're in a same boat as a lot of QBs like Rodgers, Manning, Brees.

All great. But it's hard to win it all.... usually the team who has the defense step up wins it all. Or in the case of the Saints, gets Favre and the Vikings to commit 4 or 5 gift turnovers.
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
The point he's trying to make is to disprove this ridiculous notion that Brady is somehow a system qb who's limited physically and benefits from a "system" that inflates his ability.

As stated by many in this thread, that notion is absolutely ridiculous and not true at all. Brady is not a system qb.
Yup, pretty much this. My main objections to the previous posts have been around the notion that Brady has become what Peyton Manning was at the early part of the last decade, ie - a guy who is ridiculous in the regular but can't get it done in the postseason. Brady has won in the playoffs more, or equal than all QBs except Flacco and Roethlisberger since the Pats last won a Superbowl, and, that Brady is a system QB who benefits from the situation more than he creates the situation. The only real constant in the Patriots for the last 12 or 13 years has been Brady. The Patriots have been through significant changes, yet the Pats are still competitive year in, year out
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:07 AM    (permalink
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I never understood why people pinpoint playoff success/failure with QB's, same with giving QB's "wins".
Peyton and the Broncos lost in essentially double OT to the eventual Super Bowl Champ Ravens, by 3 points. The Broncos had a 7 point lead with under a minute to go, and the defense, mainly Rahim Moore, let them down.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:09 AM    (permalink
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Peyton didn't play a great game either though. They scored 2 special team TDs and Manning was picked off twice.

It just seems like Peyton's level of excellence dips in the playoffs for whatever reason. There's a clear history and pattern to this.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:15 AM    (permalink
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Peyton didn't play a great game either though. They scored 2 special team TDs and Manning was picked off twice.

It just seems like Peyton's level of excellence dips in the playoffs for whatever reason. There's a clear history and pattern to this.
One was a borderline pass interference call, the other in double OT that was a dumb throw throwing across his body.

And Manning in regulation did well enough, especially considering he was down to his 3rd string rookie RB. 250+ yards, 3 TD passes. Again, he did well enough to win the game. The defense gave up 31 points, and had to just keep the Ravens from going 80 yards in under a minute to win the game and failed.

Rahim Moore actually plays that ball correctly, are we still having this discussion? Probably not.
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Old 06-05-2013, 10:42 AM    (permalink
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It just seems like Peyton's level of excellence dips in the playoffs for whatever reason. There's a clear history and pattern to this.
Truth. Excuses or what-not, it's happened, time and time again.
Reminds me of the Gunslinger.

Also, I don't like Brady but you're right, he's clearly not just a system QB.
He IS THE system, because he's great.

Back to Marino, who here actually saw him play?
I know there's a few of you...... most haven't though.
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Old 06-05-2013, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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I saw Marino. I don't remember much from the 80s though. I have tapes of old Giant games from the 80s bc my uncle would record them, but not much on Marino from that decade.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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Truth. Excuses or what-not, it's happened, time and time again.
Reminds me of the Gunslinger.

Also, I don't like Brady but you're right, he's clearly not just a system QB.
He IS THE system, because he's great.

Back to Marino, who here actually saw him play?
I know there's a few of you...... most haven't though.
I didn't see him much, mainly due to the horrible scheduling as back then, I really only watched the Broncos and playoff games.
How horrible was scheduling before the NFL went to its new thing?
Elway and Marino, despite being in the same conference, went head to head against each other less than 5 times total in their careers, including playoffs.
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:23 AM    (permalink
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I think it's tough to classify players (especially QB's) through the Era's. Too many differences in the way the game was played, rules, and size, speed, and strength of the guys played against/with. The SB is also another thing that skews the QB debate. I'm a firm believer that it's a team accolade that tends to have a good QB on the team, instead of judging QB's with a huge curve to how many championships won. After all only one QB per year can win a championship and if they play on a crap team there is only so far they can take them. And if that's a true indictment of how good a QB truly is then Otto Graham would be the GOAT and it wouldn't be close. It would also mean that Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer are better than Marino which is as laughable as thinking Big Ben and Eli are better than Peyton. I couldn't imagine how many rings Peyton would have if he was drafted by the Steelers or any other team with a great D. Also the 'any given Sunday' term doesn't go away on SB Sunday, so the better QB or team doesn't win every time.

So with all that said I think Marino is one of the best to ever play the position. Where he would rank for me is top 10, but not sure where in the top 10 because there were a lot of great QB's and I really can't come up with an appropriate approach as to where they truly should go. He's definitely one of the GOAT and it looks like that is something everyone can agree on.
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