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Old 06-05-2013, 06:24 PM    (permalink
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Assuming that the game charting is correct (I don't know if those numbers are completely accurate), what it tells me is that in ONE game,

an offensive coordinator decided to game plan in such a way that the TEs were actively engaged in chip blocking the DEs. If I remember correctly, that game was the one in which the Eagles ran the ball uncharacteristically heavily with LeSean McCoy, and basically avoided the passing game.

Again, small sample sizes like this are misleading. That particular game was a specific game plan that the Eagles had for that team. You can't draw conclusions about Pierre Paul's entire season based on one game plan by the Eagles to run the ball heavily in a tight, low-scoring contest.

You need to break down the blocking schemes for basically every single game both players played in 2012 before we can even begin to discuss whether or not coordinators "game planned" against Pierre Paul more so than Graham, and even then, the fact that Pierre Paul may have been chip-blocked by a TE slightly more often than Graham doesn't mean that Pierre Paul's job was astronomically more difficult.
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Old 06-05-2013, 06:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by OSUGiants17 View Post
this right here blew it for me. Thought maybe he was just a delusional fan who only looks at numbers, but this gave away his troll status
Is it impossible to consider that a talented first round pick who has basically played with garbage QBs for his career so far (yes, Matt Cassel says hi) could actually be a really good WR in the future with better QB play?
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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Again, if you ask any statistics professor, he will tell you that the threshold begins in the hundreds for sample sizes.
Not even close to accurate.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:13 PM    (permalink
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This thread delivers.
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Old 06-05-2013, 07:14 PM    (permalink
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Again, if you ask any statistics professor, he will tell you that the threshold begins in the hundreds for sample sizes.
You got anything else you would like to pull out of your ass?
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Sometimes stats don't tell the whole story and all you have to do is watch them play to see who the better player is, who offenses respect more, who has a bigger impact on the games. I don't think Graham is a better player, he may have been more effective in a lesser role but that doesn't necessarily mean a player is better. There's more variables to your equation, ones that may not be easily quantified so you might want to look more big picture than just last season with limited informations and metrics.
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:52 AM    (permalink
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By AcheTen's logic, he'd rather have a guy who plays half a game racking up 1 sack than a guy who will play the whole game racking up 1 sack.

Would you rather have a guy on the field all the time to help run defense, contribute the entire game, or just half of it?
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Old 06-06-2013, 10:55 AM    (permalink
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Come on guys, JPP better overall player, but BG better pass rusher in wide 9 and in limited snaps,

I got you Ache
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Old 06-06-2013, 11:19 AM    (permalink
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So I guess the fact that 4 of Grahams sacks came in 2 games doesn't matter?

The only way Graham turns out to be better than JPP is if JPPs back actually cost him time
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:25 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by AcheTen View Post
Assuming that the game charting is correct (I don't know if those numbers are completely accurate), what it tells me is that in ONE game,
But I mean, if we take this one game, and just project that their stats will only stay the same and improve going forward, we undoubtedly have a formula that proves JPP is the superior D lineman. Thats how this works right?
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Old 06-06-2013, 12:50 PM    (permalink
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Graham sucks. He is a two bit player who can't even earn a starting job after 3 years. Any production he has is because of the scheme, coming in with fresh legs, and being an after thought for the offense. He strongly smells like a bust at this point. Nothing said so far disproves any of my facts. I see a bunch of stats that have no context. Graham is an efficient back up like Shaun Hill and nothing more. JPP is a star who had a down year.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:01 PM    (permalink
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Graham sucks. He is a two bit player who can't even earn a starting job after 3 years. Any production he has is because of the scheme, coming in with fresh legs, and being an after thought for the offense. He strongly smells like a bust at this point. Nothing said so far disproves any of my facts. I see a bunch of stats that have no context. Graham is an efficient back up like Shaun Hill and nothing more. JPP is a star who had a down year.
And /thread
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:23 PM    (permalink
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Graham sucks. He is a two bit player who can't even earn a starting job after 3 years. Any production he has is because of the scheme, coming in with fresh legs, and being an after thought for the offense. He strongly smells like a bust at this point. Nothing said so far disproves any of my facts. I see a bunch of stats that have no context. Graham is an efficient back up like Shaun Hill and nothing more. JPP is a star who had a down year.
Can't earn a starting job?

Played well (better than Pierre Paul) in his rookie season as a starter, and then was injured midway through the year.

Had to sit out 2011 entirely due to rehabbing the ACL tear + microfracture surgery.

Would have started all of 2012 if not for Jim Washburn preferring Jason Babin (with good reason - 16+ sacks in 2011, no way you bench that guy). Started the last four games after Babin and Washburn were shipped out of town.

Projected to be starting 3-4 OLB this year.

Has outplayed Pierre Paul in 2 out of the 3 years they've been in the league.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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But I mean, if we take this one game, and just project that their stats will only stay the same and improve going forward, we undoubtedly have a formula that proves JPP is the superior D lineman. Thats how this works right?
One game (roughly 40-60 snaps) is a small sample size.

400+ snaps is not.

You know simple math, right? 400 is alot bigger than ~40.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:32 PM    (permalink
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Can't earn a starting job?

Played well (better than Pierre Paul) in his rookie season as a starter, and then was injured midway through the year.

Had to sit out 2011 entirely due to rehabbing the ACL tear + microfracture surgery.

Would have started all of 2012 if not for Jim Washburn preferring Jason Babin (with good reason - 16+ sacks in 2011, no way you bench that guy). Started the last four games after Babin and Washburn were shipped out of town.

Projected to be starting 3-4 OLB this year.

Has outplayed Pierre Paul in 2 out of the 3 years they've been in the league.
So he is injury prone and isn't a starter. JPPs one 16+ sack year blows away any minor stuff Graham did as a back up. Graham hasn't done **** in this league. Maybe he turns it around this year, but Graham has been a failure as a 1st round pick so far. JPP out produces him because he can actually get on the field. Call me when Graham is at all significant.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:35 PM    (permalink
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So he is injury prone and isn't a starter. JPPs one 16+ sack year blows away any minor stuff Graham did as a back up. Graham hasn't done **** in this league. Maybe he turns it around this year, but Graham has been a failure as a 1st round pick so far. JPP out produces him because he can actually get on the field. Call me when Graham is at all significant.
One freak ACL tear != injury prone. Is Adrian Peterson injury prone now?

Graham thoroughly outplayed Pierre Paul in both their rookie seasons and in 2012. I'll take two years of better play over one year, because the NFL is littered with "one year wonders" and Pierre Paul has still not proven himself to be anything but that.

I will definitely bump this thread in a year and we'll see who was right.
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Old 06-06-2013, 01:54 PM    (permalink
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One freak ACL tear != injury prone. Is Adrian Peterson injury prone now?

Graham thoroughly outplayed Pierre Paul in both their rookie seasons and in 2012. I'll take two years of better play over one year, because the NFL is littered with "one year wonders" and Pierre Paul has still not proven himself to be anything but that.

I will definitely bump this thread in a year and we'll see who was right.
How was Graham better in their rookie year? Even if they were even as rookies, their second year JPP was all pro and Gramah was in the tub. Just 1 year of JPP has been double the production of Graham's career. Graham is a blurb while JPP is a star. I'll take the all pro. You can have the 1st round disappointment.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:03 PM    (permalink
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How was Graham better in their rookie year? Even if they were even as rookies, their second year JPP was all pro and Gramah was in the tub. Just 1 year of JPP has been double the production of Graham's career. Graham is a blurb while JPP is a star. I'll take the all pro. You can have the 1st round disappointment.
Graham outproduced Pierre Paul in sacks, hits, and hurries in their rookie seasons. And Profootballfocus gave him higher grades in all aspects of the game that year as well.

Listen to yourself. "Just 1 year". You do realize that's the definition of a "one year wonder", right? Pierre Paul hasn't proven jack yet, except that he had a good year on a Super Bowl team that was less about him and more about Eli Manning being amazing and Justin Tuck and Osi Umenyiora and Antrell Rolle and Corey Webster all playing lights-out in the post-season.

We're talking about the future here. Who's going to have the better career in total? I'm betting on Graham, who has shown more recently that he has more pass rush ability than Pierre Paul.
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Old 06-06-2013, 02:07 PM    (permalink
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Has outplayed Pierre Paul in 2 out of the 3 years they've been in the league.
Um what?!!

As a rookie, Graham played in 13 games, had 13 tackles and 3 sacks. JPP had 30 tackles, and 4.5 sacks coming off the bench.

There's been absolutely nothing to prove Graham is even close to JPP as a player, yet you keep bringing up useless information and making even dumber remarks.

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Old 06-06-2013, 02:54 PM    (permalink
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Graham outproduced Pierre Paul in sacks, hits, and hurries in their rookie seasons. And Profootballfocus gave him higher grades in all aspects of the game that year as well.

Listen to yourself. "Just 1 year". You do realize that's the definition of a "one year wonder", right? Pierre Paul hasn't proven jack yet, except that he had a good year on a Super Bowl team that was less about him and more about Eli Manning being amazing and Justin Tuck and Osi Umenyiora and Antrell Rolle and Corey Webster all playing lights-out in the post-season.

We're talking about the future here. Who's going to have the better career in total? I'm betting on Graham, who has shown more recently that he has more pass rush ability than Pierre Paul.
Out right lie on sacks in their rookie year. I'll take a 1 year of produciton over 0 years for Graham. The numbers show JPP just flat out produces Graham. 1 year of all pro >>>>>> 0 years of starting. Graham hasn't shown jack as a starter. Its like a back up RB having good numbers. Lets see him do it as a starter.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:04 PM    (permalink
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Is it impossible to consider that a talented first round pick who has basically played with garbage QBs for his career so far (yes, Matt Cassel says hi) could actually be a really good WR in the future with better QB play?
No, I wouldn't be shocked if he became a starting/good WR in the future, but to say he could become an ELITE WR and outplay Calvin Johnson(a man who will most likely go down as an all time great WR) is just ******* stupid.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:08 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by mightytitan9 View Post
Um what?!!

As a rookie, Graham played in 13 games, had 13 tackles and 3 sacks. JPP had 30 tackles, and 4.5 sacks coming off the bench.

There's been absolutely nothing to prove Graham is even close to JPP as a player, yet you keep bringing up useless information and making even dumber remarks.
Graham had more sacks+hits+pressures combined than Pierre Paul did in their rookie seasons, and also had a higher PFF grade, and had better Pass Rush Productivity ranking.
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Old 06-06-2013, 03:15 PM    (permalink
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This thread is what happens when someone who doesn't know how to use numbers tries to use numbers.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:12 PM    (permalink
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OSUGiants17 View Post
this right here blew it for me. Thought maybe he was just a delusional fan who only looks at numbers, but this gave away his troll status
I'll give him credit where it's due. He's got his story and he's sticking with it. To be logically consistent, he has to say that Baldwin may outperform Johnson, otherwise he just looks stupid(er).

Bravo!

Last edited by WCH : 06-06-2013 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 06-06-2013, 04:13 PM    (permalink
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JPP is much much much much better in run defense than Graham.

JPP had a better year than Graham in 2012 and 2011.

Graham is a good backup and decent starter. Nobody game plans for him like they do with JPP. It's a fact
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