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Old 06-06-2013, 05:32 PM    (permalink
Caulibflower
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Honestly, I think you're either ready or not. Bad qbs will fail regardless of their situation, and good quarterbacks will succeed regardless of their situation. It's really just excuses.
Do you honestly think this? You don't think coaching and/or organizations/teams have anything to do with an individual quarterback's success? I think what you just said is absurd. Learning doesn't stop when a player graduates from college, nor should it be expected to. What's more, the league is jam-packed with examples of good quarterbacks who were not ready to play as soon as they entered the league.

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David Carr was going to stink regardless of his situation. Same with Sanchez, same with Joey Harrington etc. The league is much more qb friendly now, you can tell within 2 years if your qb is going to succeed or not.

There's really no need for these guys to sit anymore. Look at Kevin Kolb. Sat for what, 3 years? Still sucked.

You either got it or you don't.
All you did was name quarterbacks who never/haven't panned out. How about Alex Smith, Kurt Warner, Trent Green, Drew Brees, Matt Hasselbeck, Eli Manning, or any number of quarterbacks who took some time to transition to the pro game? They all had help and their success can't be appreciated without considering the people they had around them. No one's saying that simply sitting a player will eventually make him into a starter, but there are surely players who needed to learn and develop for a bit before they were able to unleash their full potential.
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Old 06-06-2013, 05:40 PM    (permalink
niel89
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I strongly disagree also. Good players can and have failed because of bad situation.


Heck Tebow might have been elite if McD has kept his job in Denver...
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:32 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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I strongly disagree also. Good players can and have failed because of bad situation.


Heck Tebow might have been elite if McD has kept his job in Denver...
EXACTLY!!!


You put ANY pocket passing QB behing that Texans Oline that Carr had and i would guarantee it would be very similar... i mean there is a difference in being flat out garbage like making the wrong reads and forcing passes, but when you take the snap and before you can even finish the drop back you are getting mauled it doesnt matter who you are.


And I agree if McD was still around( THANK GOD HE ISNT) Tebow probably wouldnt have played at all until this coming up year, McD knew what he was getting with Tebow. He wanted a guy to run the spread he had established in NE and knew with Tebow's athleticism if he could groom him he would be an HUGE weapon... well that didnt work out, the McD was fired, Tebow was thrown in before he was ready due to fans, and the spread was scrapped for a power running team, and the rest is history.



But back to the point, Look at all the Super Stars that have go else where such as Oakland (Sapp and Moss) jump out to me, but even McFadden... you have bad coaching and no direction and a losing tradition all that can culminate and make a good player fail

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Old 06-07-2013, 08:46 AM    (permalink
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I agree with BBD, at least in the case of Carr. He couldn't process information and make his reads at an NFL level. Looked like Tarzan, played like he took the short bus to school.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:59 AM    (permalink
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I agree with BBD, at least in the case of Carr. He couldn't process information and make his reads at an NFL level. Looked like Tarzan, played like he took the short bus to school.
Maybe he was slow...maybe not because when i saw him play and even look back he was getting sacked left and right, and sure some of that could have been on him...but if he didnt have time to go through the progressions or check downs because he was getting sacked so often. Consider that Carr holds the #1 and #3 spot on the most sacked qb in a single season.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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If you line up as a prototypical QB behind the line the texans had in front of Carr... you cant do much if you are getting sacked before you can drop back... I really feel like he was put in a terrible situtation..

And yeah you either have it or you dont... But being Kolb or Matt Flynn is different than being a 1st or 2nd round QB. They had like 1 or 2 good games and desperate teams thought it was enough...

Simply put sitting and learning and getting better if possible is great for a young QB, but you cant turn trash into gold... Kolb was trash and had a good game..



If you know your guy is retiring in a couple years (Farve or Manning) and you dont have alot of holes, taking a very talented guy to sit and learn how a HOF QB does things and prepares is great... But again not many teams have a HOF QB and not many are in a stable situation where they can select a guy high and let him learn.
Kolb was a 2nd round draft pick.

And pressure is a subjective problem. It isn't entirely on the OL. Is Carr recognizing the blitz? Is he processing routes quickly and getting the ball out quickly? Does he have pocket presence? Carr had none of those things going for him. It's why he's still awful even after he went into good situations.

The whole Carr didn't have help thing is just an excuse. Its the typical excuse for every bad qb. When you evaluate qbs, it's important to isolate the player. No one is in a perfect situation, and you can always make an excuse for failure. That holds true for not only football, but all walks of life.

Great coaching and surroundings surely help, but they are not the determining factor in whether a qb is successful or not. If that was the case then they'd thrive when they went into a better situation.

Now has this happened in the past? Yes it has. Steve Young is obviously the best example. But how often is that? It's very rare.

And it's a different game now. The rules are qb friendly. There's no reason to sit a qb anymore.

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As perfectly illustrated by Steve Young in Tampa Bay.
I'll give you that. He's an exception though, it's very rare to see this. And to be fair, it's a different era with different rules.

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Originally Posted by Caulibflower View Post
Do you honestly think this? You don't think coaching and/or organizations/teams have anything to do with an individual quarterback's success? I think what you just said is absurd. Learning doesn't stop when a player graduates from college, nor should it be expected to. What's more, the league is jam-packed with examples of good quarterbacks who were not ready to play as soon as they entered the league.



All you did was name quarterbacks who never/haven't panned out. How about Alex Smith, Kurt Warner, Trent Green, Drew Brees, Matt Hasselbeck, Eli Manning, or any number of quarterbacks who took some time to transition to the pro game? They all had help and their success can't be appreciated without considering the people they had around them. No one's saying that simply sitting a player will eventually make him into a starter, but there are surely players who needed to learn and develop for a bit before they were able to unleash their full potential.
See the difference is, all those players who you stated who panned out flashed potential even when they were bad. They werent complete duds who just turned the light on (except Alex Smith whom I don't think is very good anyway).

I'm not saying you have to be Joe Montana right away, but if you don't flash the potential to be special then there's cause for concern.

Take Blaine Gabbert. You knew right away that he sucked and there was no fixing him. Didn't matter if he sat 4 years, he'd still suck. Same with Clausen.

I think successful quarterbacks will at the very least flash potential to be good right away. The consistency comes with time. But if they don't flash, I doubt they ever will.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:49 PM    (permalink
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For me, the biggest case of a good player failing in a bad situation was Tim Couch.

That man could throw the ball and was intelligent but the Browns sent him out there wayyyy to early and got him completely smashed.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:01 PM    (permalink
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See the difference is, all those players who you stated who panned out flashed potential even when they were bad. They werent complete duds who just turned the light on (except Alex Smith whom I don't think is very good anyway).

I'm not saying you have to be Joe Montana right away, but if you don't flash the potential to be special then there's cause for concern.

Take Blaine Gabbert. You knew right away that he sucked and there was no fixing him. Didn't matter if he sat 4 years, he'd still suck. Same with Clausen.

I think successful quarterbacks will at the very least flash potential to be good right away. The consistency comes with time. But if they don't flash, I doubt they ever will.
It's true that I don't think Gabbert will ever be good. And I thought so well before he played a snap in the NFL. But there are also guys who have always flashed and have never really panned out. you might very well invoke JaMarcus Russell here, or Jeff George, or hell, even Vince Young. I could list more, but the point isn't to create a catalog. I just didn't think what you said on the last page made sense. You said:

Quote:
Bad qbs will fail regardless of their situation, and good quarterbacks will succeed regardless of their situation.
I might actually give you the first part, but juxtaposing it with "good quarterbacks will succeed regardless of their situation" makes it seem like any quarterback who fails to achieve "franchise" status, or whatever, must be inherently "bad" somehow, and that just isn't true.
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Old 06-07-2013, 02:57 PM    (permalink
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I think Big Blue is stuck on the recent success of rookies, but sitting and learning while working out in a pro regiment is never a bad thing. It also mean the team has a competent QB in place that is nearing the end...why not groom his heir?


Teams that can afford the luxury of doing so are usually not flawed teams... EXE. Aaron Rogers, or even Kapernick was drafted for that reason, if Smith doesnt get hurt Kap doesnt touch the field atleast not at all this past year. What Denver is doing is also similar, not very many holes, and knowing Manning is only there for a short window they made the choice of taking Brock and letting him learn, letting him work on things and see how Manning prepares and handles his buisness.


Teams that need a QB to come in right away and start are not the teams im talking about .... if you are drafting a QB #1 overall your situation cant get much worse unless he ends up sucking and then you are financially stuck with him. But if you can take a QB late 1st or even 2nd round and let him sit you are obviously already a good team not needing him to come in right away.
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:17 PM    (permalink
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Well he is trying.

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Free agent JaMarcus Russell weighed 267 pounds at his Bears workout Friday.
For points of reference, Russell measured 6-foot-5 1/2, 265 at the 2007 NFL Scouting Combine. He was supposedly 311 pounds when his comeback began. While ESPN's Chris Mortensen reports Russell will not be signed by the Bears, the weigh-in at least confirms Russell is serious about his comeback attempt. Russell's trainer, Jeff Garcia, says JaMarcus is willing to take his talents to Canada if no NFL teams want to sign the 27-year-old.
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Old 06-07-2013, 04:36 PM    (permalink
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Bears reportedly not signing JaMarcus. Darn.

As a Bears fan, I was obviously hoping that he'd go in there, look like a beast, get signed, prove me wrong, and lead the team to the next six super bowls.

I hate being right.

It's encouraging to see him drop a billion pounds, but I still think he's too dumb to play QB at the NFL level. Just not enough IQ to work with...like asking a janitor to be an air traffic controller.
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Old 06-07-2013, 04:43 PM    (permalink
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Honestly, I'm a lot more excited for the Trent Edwards workout. I know Cutler reportedly really likes having McCown hold his clipboard, but Edwards seems like he'd be a much better West Coast backup.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:08 PM    (permalink
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Honestly, I'm a lot more excited for the Trent Edwards workout. I know Cutler reportedly really likes having McCown hold his clipboard, but Edwards seems like he'd be a much better West Coast backup.
I really wanted the Ravens to draft Edwards before we got Flacco. Edwards wasn't doing that bad in Buffalo before he got some concussions and he mentally changed from it. I could have envisioned him being a decent player but he just got so much more hesitant. In another life he could have been a low level stater.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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It's true that I don't think Gabbert will ever be good. And I thought so well before he played a snap in the NFL. But there are also guys who have always flashed and have never really panned out. you might very well invoke JaMarcus Russell here, or Jeff George, or hell, even Vince Young. I could list more, but the point isn't to create a catalog. I just didn't think what you said on the last page made sense. You said:



I might actually give you the first part, but juxtaposing it with "good quarterbacks will succeed regardless of their situation" makes it seem like any quarterback who fails to achieve "franchise" status, or whatever, must be inherently "bad" somehow, and that just isn't true.
You bring up a great point that I didnt really think about. There are plenty of qbs who flash and don't produce as well. Those guys you mentioned didn't pan out bc of work ethic though. Not ability. Vince Young could be playing right now if he ever put in the effort.

I guess it's fair to say its not a black and white issue. You just don't know what you have until you use live bullets.

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Originally Posted by Denver Bronco56 View Post
I think Big Blue is stuck on the recent success of rookies, but sitting and learning while working out in a pro regiment is never a bad thing. It also mean the team has a competent QB in place that is nearing the end...why not groom his heir?


Teams that can afford the luxury of doing so are usually not flawed teams... EXE. Aaron Rogers, or even Kapernick was drafted for that reason, if Smith doesnt get hurt Kap doesnt touch the field atleast not at all this past year. What Denver is doing is also similar, not very many holes, and knowing Manning is only there for a short window they made the choice of taking Brock and letting him learn, letting him work on things and see how Manning prepares and handles his buisness.


Teams that need a QB to come in right away and start are not the teams im talking about .... if you are drafting a QB #1 overall your situation cant get much worse unless he ends up sucking and then you are financially stuck with him. But if you can take a QB late 1st or even 2nd round and let him sit you are obviously already a good team not needing him to come in right away.
I don't have a problem with sitting and developing a qb if you already have a franchise qb who's getting up there in age. That's fine. I just don't see the point in it if you don't have a franchise qb. You need that guy to show his worth right away, you don't have the luxury to sit him. Coaches get 3 years to produce results, they don't have the luxury to sit a qb for 2 years.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:45 PM    (permalink
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I think successful quarterbacks will at the very least flash potential to be good right away. The consistency comes with time. But if they don't flash, I doubt they ever will.
Meh. Drew Brees didn't flash potential until he was about to get cut. Actually, he essentially turned the light on after three years of below average quarterback play. Then he had his two good years with the Chargers where he actually looked like a legitimate quarterback.

Steve McNair didn't look that great for his first five or so years in the mid 1990's. Of course, he didn't need to be a mad bomber with the type of offense they were running at the time, which was centered around Eddie George. It wasn't until Mike Heimerdinger came along and took over the offense that things started to open up.

Personally I think it's all relative. Every situation and player is going to be different. I will say that it should be a lot easier with rookie quarterbacks to come in and start producing at a high level. I also believe there has been more scrutiny on scouting players from high school to college, and the pros. Especially since the money aspect with college and professional sports has bloomed within just the last ten years even.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.

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Old 06-07-2013, 05:52 PM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Wait...what? When did Vince Young flash potential as a passer? I don't think any amount of studying was going to fix Vince Young's horrendous accuracy problems. Maybe though.
His throwing motion isn't any worse than Phillip Rivers. He could have fixed his accuracy with some effort in footwork mechanics. I don't think he'd ever be great but he'd be better than he is now.
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Old 06-08-2013, 04:27 PM    (permalink
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Still such a shame he got a work out and Tebow hasn't yet. Nfl is messed up right now. Cleveland or Jacksonville should be looking at Tebow but oh well there loss.
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Old 06-08-2013, 05:40 PM    (permalink
WCH
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I thought Brees showed plenty of potential in 2002, before regressing in 2003.
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Old 06-08-2013, 05:43 PM    (permalink
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Still such a shame he got a work out and Tebow hasn't yet. Nfl is messed up right now. Cleveland or Jacksonville should be looking at Tebow but oh well there loss.
After all this time, I still can't tell whether you're serious or acting.
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Old 06-08-2013, 05:48 PM    (permalink
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Still such a shame he got a work out and Tebow hasn't yet. Nfl is messed up right now. Cleveland or Jacksonville should be looking at Tebow but oh well there loss.
Everyone understands you're frustrated as a Tebow fan.

I'll reiterated a point that's been made (and this is coming from someone who feels Tebow deserves a shot somewhere in the NFL), he simply comes with too much of a circus to even bring into training camp. The organization is forced to devote additional time to accommodate everything that comes with the media and attention attached to Tebow wherever he goes, and the talent he is with respect to the QB position does not outweigh the media circus.

The Bears bring in Russell, who possesses the skill set teams desire more in their QBs (size, orthodox throwing motion, strong arm, schematic fit), and it got a mention on ESPN but came with absolutely zero fanfare. Bears were able to run business as usual.
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Old 06-08-2013, 05:51 PM    (permalink
WCH
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After all this time, I still can't tell whether you're serious or acting.
I thought he was serious for the longest time, but this is getting too over the top.
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Old 06-08-2013, 08:42 PM    (permalink
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Everyone understands you're frustrated as a Tebow fan.

I'll reiterated a point that's been made (and this is coming from someone who feels Tebow deserves a shot somewhere in the NFL), he simply comes with too much of a circus to even bring into training camp. The organization is forced to devote additional time to accommodate everything that comes with the media and attention attached to Tebow wherever he goes, and the talent he is with respect to the QB position does not outweigh the media circus.

The Bears bring in Russell, who possesses the skill set teams desire more in their QBs (size, orthodox throwing motion, strong arm, schematic fit), and it got a mention on ESPN but came with absolutely zero fanfare. Bears were able to run business as usual.
The media circus crap is all on ESPN fault. So why is Tebow to blame? If ESPN would stop following his every practice he would get on a team. It's not like Tebow wanted the media attention well maybe I dunno. But again blame ESPN . Probably NFL N it all started back at the senior bowl. I understand that teams don't want the media all over there fields and what not but come on NFL get rid of the coverage and he'll land on a team.


Just saying.
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Old 06-08-2013, 10:49 PM    (permalink
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He's looking good baw

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Old 06-08-2013, 11:04 PM    (permalink
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At least Russell is getting his life together. Gotta give my boy Garcia a lot of credit. He really seems to have helped him. And if things don't work out here, at least he can try Canada.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 06-09-2013, 12:21 AM    (permalink
niel89
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At least Russell is getting his life together. Gotta give my boy Garcia a lot of credit. He really seems to have helped him. And if things don't work out here, at least he can try Canada.
I'd actually really like to see him test out the CFL for a couple years. It gives him a chance to maybe actually get on the field. If he can turn it around there and then come back down and give it another go with some good momentum.
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