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Old 06-06-2013, 04:18 PM    (permalink
niel89
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Additionally I think that only looking at this years snaps is foolish and much too small of a sample to look at. We have 3 years of snaps that clearly show that JPP is a star and Graham is a chump. The two have looked comparable at times, but JPP has played at an elite level while Graham has only put up some modest numbers when he isn't hurt.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:06 AM    (permalink
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Additionally I think that only looking at this years snaps is foolish and much too small of a sample to look at. We have 3 years of snaps that clearly show that JPP is a star and Graham is a chump. The two have looked comparable at times, but JPP has played at an elite level while Graham has only put up some modest numbers when he isn't hurt.
Except that:

a.) in 2010 Graham outperformed Pierre Paul on a per snap basis as well - he had more hits+hurries+sacks per snap than Pierre Paul that year.

b.) In 2011 Graham simply couldn't play. Chalk that year up as a victory for Pierre Paul, but again, if we are looking into the future, we have to give Graham a pass for this year.

c.) In 2012 Graham outperformed Pierre Paul on a per snap basis again.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:08 AM    (permalink
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Additionally I think that only looking at this years snaps is foolish and much too small of a sample to look at. We have 3 years of snaps that clearly show that JPP is a star and Graham is a chump. The two have looked comparable at times, but JPP has played at an elite level while Graham has only put up some modest numbers when he isn't hurt.
First, I am an eagles fan...and this thread is a joke.

2nd of all, you can't say Graham is a chump...he simply hasn't played. When he has, he has been very productive.

3rd, this thread is a joke. JPP is an elite end in this league, and Graham? he simply hasnt played.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:09 AM    (permalink
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JPP is much much much much better in run defense than Graham.
How exactly can you substantiate this?

I'm going by Profootballfocus run defense grades, which basically rates Graham just as highly as Pierre Paul, or maybe slightly less, but not much less. Pierre Paul is a very good run defender, but he's not head and shoulders about Graham or anyone else.

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JPP had a better year than Graham in 2012 and 2011.
Again, substantiate this claim please. Are you going by the ole "CUZ EVERYONE SAYS SO AND OMG JPP JUMPED SO HIGH AND OMG SUPER BOWL" reasoning? Is that where your (sluggish) train of thought is currently boarding?

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Graham is a good backup and decent starter. Nobody game plans for him like they do with JPP. It's a fact
Yeah, it's a real "fact" when "Maybe This Year Mayhew" talks out of his ass on a random internet forum and doesn't bother checking any stats or game tape or anything that would, you know, lend credence to his argument.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:10 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SickwithIt1010 View Post
First, I am an eagles fan...and this thread is a joke.

2nd of all, you can't say Graham is a chump...he simply hasn't played. When he has, he has been very productive.

3rd, this thread is a joke. JPP is an elite end in this league, and Graham? he simply hasnt played.
Elite ends don't play 850+ snaps in the NFL and reach the same level of production as a DE like Graham who played HALF that number.

Pierre Paul is a solid DE who had one good year so far. Other than that he's been pretty mediocre, and I'm betting on him being mediocre in the future more so than good.

Everyone is blinded by factors that color their perception of Pierre Paul: the fact that he was on a recent Super Bowl winning team that featured a strong defensive line in the playoffs, and the fact that the media hypes him up so much because he's a New York player, and the fact that he looks like a big black Gumby, which fascinates football fans who are drawn to "freaks" historically, even if those "freaks" don't necessarily know how to play as well as someone who looks like a normal human being.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:14 AM    (permalink
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Shut up, Thumper.
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:15 AM    (permalink
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Shut up, Thumper.
Contribute something of value to this thread and use some actual reasoning and logic or GTFO.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:16 AM    (permalink
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Thumper?
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I wouldn't be sir prized if he passed McCoy on the depth chart. I think he might have a better arm and accurate arm then him from the highlights I thought. He also got some wheels too help us prepare for QB's as Wilson , RG3 and other runners etc.
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Old 06-07-2013, 12:46 AM    (permalink
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Contribute something of value to this thread and use some actual reasoning and logic or GTFO.
Edit: can't believe I posted in this thread.
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Old 06-07-2013, 01:28 AM    (permalink
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I think the title of this thread is stupid, and should be changed. If you're going to make an argument, at least identify what your are trying to convey. There is no argument that says Brandon Graham is a better player than Jason Pierre Paul based on their three years of NFL experience. And that's exactly what "Brandon Graham is a better player than Jason Pierre Paul" means. Based on what they've done, your coming out and saying that Brandon Graham is a better player. That's not an opinion, that's not subjective. It's blatantly wrong.

If you're trying to say that Graham will develop into a better player down the road, then that's one thing. That's a projection based on potential. When both players were coming out I liked both immensely. I thought Graham had less of a risk factor since his pass rushing technique was so good, especial for a college player. But he was also small with short arms, which stunts the potential of a defensive end and lowers their ceiling.

Pierre Paul had obscene length and size. His athleticism was just as good, if not better, than the much smaller Graham. But his awareness, production, experience and technique were severely lacking for a Top 5 caliber talent. He was more of a mystery player. He had the tools to be called the most gifted player in the draft, but he was so raw and so inexperienced that you were left to wonder how big his learning curve was, and if he was ever going to develop the technique to become a consistent double digit sack guy.

You knew what you were getting with Graham. Not nearly as much upside as JPP, but much less mystery. To make this thread after both players have been in the league for three years is, what I find, a bit perplexing. The OP is stilling hanging his hat on Graham' potential, which I still like, but JPP has already reached levels that you thought he could become if he panned out. Three years later you have to take away the mystery with Pierre Paul because he has developed in all facets of the game. He's a complete player that rushes the passer very well and plays the run at a high level for a 43 defensive end. For his position, he's Top 5 against the pass and Top 5 against the run. What are JPPs weakness three years into his career? Graham is no where close. And he probably doesn't have the potential to be an elite defensive end; like JPP has shown that he is. Yes, he had a down year compared to his defensive player of the year type sophomore season. But he still had a much better season than anything Graham has to show for thus far.

I was one of Graham' biggest fans coming out of college. He has done nothing but disappoint thus far in his career (in my book anyway). He's not a starter. He doesn't get starting reps and a fairly large knock on him was lack of size. A question was how well would he hold up against bigger stronger linemen over the course of a game and season; as a starter. We still don't know that answer. Graham playing less snaps with a fresh pair of legs is much easier than JPP playing significantly more snaps while garnering more attention and double teams on tired legs.

Graham was a good rotational player last year. He showed that he has promise. But he has not shown that he can be a Trent Cole type player and dominate game after game after game, snap after snap after snap. That's what separates good players from great players. JPP, while tired and winded, is just as much of a threat as Brandon Graham coming off the bench when he's well rested for two or three plays. That's the difference between the two players. One is proven, the other is still hanging onto potential (still earning a starting job).

Comparing stats and saying Graham was just as productive, or nearly as productive in half the amount of snaps last year does not tell you anything. It says that Graham was, probably, an effective swing DE working in a rotation, which he was. It also says that JPP had a solid season, but nothing noteworthy. Which was accurate for JPP. He was good last year. He wasn't great. But neither was Graham. And Graham was good to a much lesser degree. He was good for what he did. And he wasn't asked to do too much. JPP was asked to be the anchor of an aging, declining defensive line. And he had a solid season.
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Old 06-07-2013, 03:08 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by SickwithIt1010 View Post
First, I am an eagles fan...and this thread is a joke.

2nd of all, you can't say Graham is a chump...he simply hasn't played. When he has, he has been very productive.

3rd, this thread is a joke. JPP is an elite end in this league, and Graham? he simply hasnt played.
I actually like Graham quite a bit and I'm just trying to mess with Thumper by calling Graham a chump and other names. I liked Graham coming out and he really should fit well with the new defense. He can be a real nice player.

Its funny how he clings to 2 years where both players were just ehh and then completely ignores the year one wasn't playing and the other put up an elite all pro year.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:02 AM    (permalink
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Everyone is blinded by factors that color their perception of Pierre Paul: the fact that he was on a recent Super Bowl winning team that featured a strong defensive line in the playoffs, and the fact that the media hypes him up so much because he's a New York player, and the fact that he looks like a big black Gumby, which fascinates football fans who are drawn to "freaks" historically, even if those "freaks" don't necessarily know how to play as well as someone who looks like a normal human being.
Do you have any sort of solid factual evidence to "substantiate your claims", or are you just pulling stuff out of your ass once again?
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:36 AM    (permalink
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Again, substantiate this claim please. Are you going by the ole "CUZ EVERYONE SAYS SO AND OMG JPP JUMPED SO HIGH AND OMG SUPER BOWL" reasoning? Is that where your (sluggish) train of thought is currently boarding?
He can use the same damn thing you use to substantiate your argument by using PFF which rated JPP higher in 2011 and 2012. The only difference here is you refuse to acknowledge it if it doesn't fit the narrative you're trying to argue, along with the other 5 dozen or so arguments you've completely disregarded.
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Old 06-07-2013, 05:59 AM    (permalink
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Connor Barwin will lead the Eagles in sacks AND start.

Brandon Graham needs to try to be better than Barwin before he comes after JPP.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:01 AM    (permalink
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Edit: I also can't believe I posted in this thread. I hate feeding trolls.

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Old 06-07-2013, 06:10 PM    (permalink
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Graham is 50x the player that Barwin is.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:11 PM    (permalink
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He can use the same damn thing you use to substantiate your argument by using PFF which rated JPP higher in 2011 and 2012. The only difference here is you refuse to acknowledge it if it doesn't fit the narrative you're trying to argue, along with the other 5 dozen or so arguments you've completely disregarded.
Where did PFF rate Pierre Paul higher than Graham?

They only put him higher on the top101 list because of the number of snaps he played, as the top101 list was based on TOTAL contributions, not on efficiency or talent.

Graham was ranked higher in Pass Rush Productivity and by 4-3 DE player grades on PFF.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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Graham is 50x the player that Barwin is.
That's a very scientific evaluation.
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Old 06-07-2013, 06:46 PM    (permalink
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Where did PFF rate Pierre Paul higher than Graham?

They only put him higher on the top101 list because of the number of snaps he played, as the top101 list was based on TOTAL contributions, not on efficiency or talent.

Graham was ranked higher in Pass Rush Productivity and by 4-3 DE player grades on PFF.
They rated him as having a better season. That's the entire point of their list. You said that he needed to have something to substantiate his claim, and PFF did exactly that. They weighed total contributions by player and concluded that JPP had a better season in 2012 than Graham did.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:05 PM    (permalink
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AcheTen makes the board way more entertaining than it has any right to be during the offseason.
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I heard that Sylvester Stallone wrote The Expendables with The Alex in mind. He had to keep it realistic though and split The Alex's abilities into multiple characters. Stallone thought that critics would pan it for being too far-fetched if he just had one character effing everyone up.
The end. Cut to black. Audience goes ****ing ape****.
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:23 PM    (permalink
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They rated him as having a better season. That's the entire point of their list. You said that he needed to have something to substantiate his claim, and PFF did exactly that. They weighed total contributions by player and concluded that JPP had a better season in 2012 than Graham did.
Don't you understand the whole point of my thread? That Graham is a BETTER TALENT than Pierre Paul.

He can be a better player who is more adept at generating pressure even if he played half the snaps. In fact, he produced basically as much as Pierre Paul, or only slightly less, in half the snaps. That makes him far more efficient, especially as a pass rusher, which makes him a better talent and projects him as a better player into the future.

They didn't rate Pierre Paul as having a "better season" but only producing more total than Graham. Pierre Paul played 850+ snaps while Graham only played 421 on defense. But Graham was by far the more efficient player, and more productive per snap. That's why PFF also gave Graham a higher player grade in the 4-3 DE rankings and a higher Pass Rush Productivity score.

Why is this basic concept so hard to understand for you?
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:27 PM    (permalink
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Don't you understand the whole point of my thread? That Graham is a BETTER TALENT than Pierre Paul.
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Originally Posted by Your thread title
Bold Statement: Brandon Graham is a better player than Jason Pierre Paul
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Old 06-07-2013, 08:31 PM    (permalink
cmarq83
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Don't you understand the whole point of my thread? That Graham is a BETTER TALENT than Pierre Paul.

He can be a better player who is more adept at generating pressure even if he played half the snaps. In fact, he produced basically as much as Pierre Paul, or only slightly less, in half the snaps. That makes him far more efficient, especially as a pass rusher, which makes him a better talent and projects him as a better player into the future.

Why is this basic concept so hard to understand for you?
You attacked another poster for having nothing to substantiate his claim that JPP was better in 2011 and 2012 than Graham was. However, an independent party which you have been keen to cite many times came to the same conclusion as that poster. It doesn't matter the efficiency of those players, because they concluded that JPP"s contributions > Graham's contributions in 2012. It's as simple as that. You are welcome to go ahead with your awful efficiency argument, but your claim that the other poster has nothing to substantiate that Paul's 2012 was better than Graham's is false.

If anybody is short of things to substantiate their claim it is you.

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They didn't rate Pierre Paul as having a "better season" but only producing more total than Graham.
That's not the point of the list, here is a description of how PFF views it's own list:

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So here we are. The top twenty. The guys who in my opinion played their positions better than any other.
Not was more productive, the word better is used right in the reference.

Last edited by cmarq83 : 06-07-2013 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:17 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by cmarq83 View Post
You attacked another poster for having nothing to substantiate his claim that JPP was better in 2011 and 2012 than Graham was. However, an independent party which you have been keen to cite many times came to the same conclusion as that poster. It doesn't matter the efficiency of those players, because they concluded that JPP"s contributions > Graham's contributions in 2012. It's as simple as that. You are welcome to go ahead with your awful efficiency argument, but your claim that the other poster has nothing to substantiate that Paul's 2012 was better than Graham's is false.
Total Contributions is NOT the same as Efficiency. When we look at a player's talent, we look at their efficiency.


In 2009, Cameron Wake was a part-time OLB for the Dolphins. That same year, Manny Lawson was a full-time OLB for the 49ers. Lawson played almost double the number of snaps as Wake.

That year, Wake put up 5.5 sacks and 10 tackles. Lawson managed 6.5 sacks and 49 tackles.

Cameron Wake didn't produce as much as Lawson did that year, but he did produce slightly less in far fewer snaps. Which player showed more pure talent that year, the guy who did almost as much in less snaps or the starter who had to play double the number of snaps just to slightly outproduce Wake?

Similarly, Pierre Paul did produce more in total than Graham, but not much more, and it took him DOUBLE the number of snaps to do so. In this case, Pierre Paul is like Lawson and Graham is like Wake, in that the part time player nearly produced as much as the full time player, and in the future, if that part time player is given a chance to be a full time starter, he could very well do the exact same thing that Wake has done: become a dominant starter.

Lawson, obviously, is an inferior talent compared to Wake and now that Wake has been a full-time starter for 3 years, this has proven to be true.
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Old 06-07-2013, 09:25 PM    (permalink
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Total Contributions is NOT the same as Efficiency. When we look at a player's talent, we look at their efficiency.


In 2009, Cameron Wake was a part-time OLB for the Dolphins. That same year, Manny Lawson was a full-time OLB for the 49ers. Lawson played almost double the number of snaps as Wake.

That year, Wake put up 5.5 sacks and 10 tackles. Lawson managed 6.5 sacks and 49 tackles.

Cameron Wake didn't produce as much as Lawson did that year, but he did produce slightly less in far fewer snaps. Which player showed more pure talent that year, the guy who did almost as much in less snaps or the starter who had to play double the number of snaps just to slightly outproduce Wake?

Similarly, Pierre Paul did produce more in total than Graham, but not much more, and it took him DOUBLE the number of snaps to do so. In this case, Pierre Paul is like Lawson and Graham is like Wake, in that the part time player nearly produced as much as the full time player, and in the future, if that part time player is given a chance to be a full time starter, he could very well do the exact same thing that Wake has done: become a dominant starter.

Lawson, obviously, is an inferior talent compared to Wake and now that Wake has been a full-time starter for 3 years, this has proven to be true.
Not at all interested in this argument because it doesn't address what I brought up. However, I do find it interesting that you brought up Wake and Lawson because from 2008-2010 Manny Lawson was more productive rushing the passer on a PER SNAP basis than Wake. Obviously he is the superior talent right?
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