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Old 06-18-2013, 08:17 AM    (permalink
WCH
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The first was a concussion where he did not slide down to get out of bounds until too late and he took a hit to the head, so not even a hit to the leg.

The second was a freakish play again the result of not sliding conventionally and Griffins leg wrapping round Ngata.
This is why I literally stop breathing every time Aaron Rodgers decides to run. He scares the living crap out of me because he has a history of being an idiot and getting injured.
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Old 06-18-2013, 08:42 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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I dont see a difference in terms of your most important player (QB) being injured, whether it is a concussion or rib injury or whatever... by him running around and becoming a target is not ideal.

Give me a guy like Peyton Manning, Dan Marino, Tom Brady over a guy that is going to try and make a play instead of throwing the ball away or just taking what the D gives you and next thing you know your starting guy, the guy you are paying 10+ mil a season to is out for a couple games.


Like previously stated even Packers fan are scared when Rogers decides to run... the only QBs that are capable of the punishment in my are Tebow and Newton.



The trend of running QBs will continue until 1)D finally bottle it up or 2) QBs are starting to get hurt frequently

and with only two of "new" qbs really built for it i can see injuries being a big reason for its demise.
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Old 06-18-2013, 09:27 AM    (permalink
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The rise of the running QB motif will stop getting as much press soon, simply because these guys will stop running as much as they take the next step on the path to becoming successful NFL QBs and will get handed more and more "traditional" responsibilities. And as these guys get better at reading defenses and riping them up with their arms they'll rely less and less on their legs, and as they run less and less we'll talk less and less about running QBs. The only way this doesn't happen is if these kids don't progress as passers and have to continue relying on their running to make them effective.

I brought up Elway on the previous page as he's the quintessential example of a phenomenal athlete who can make magic happen with his legs, but develops his passing until it overtakes his running to the point where his mobility is used almost entirely to avoid hits in the pocket, and not to weave his way down the field.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:12 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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Elway is somewhat a good example for this. But Elway had one of the best arms the game has ever seen.... it just so happened that he was one of the better athletes to play QB also.

His transition from dual threat to Pocket passer i think was a scheme and age thing, he was already a good passer early in his career he just didnt have the talent around him so often his stats didnt reflect that..

Back to my point, Elway is a good example though because to last in the NFL as an athletic QB you can go to ways

1) Elway's - Transition from athlete to pocket passer

or

2) Steve Young - Athlete that used his running ability often that led to numerous concussions that cut his career short.


Obviously not everyone is going to fall into this...but as a general rule of thumb the more you run the more you are going to get hit and thus increase your chance to be injured and by taking off and running for say 10 yards you might not be looking at the wide open WR down the field for 30 yards..

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Old 06-18-2013, 11:37 AM    (permalink
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Elway is somewhat a good example for this. But Elway had one of the best arms the game has ever seen.... it just so happened that he was one of the better athletes to play QB also.

His transition from dual threat to Pocket passer i think was a scheme and age thing, he was already a good passer early in his career he just didnt have the talent around him so often his stats didnt reflect that..

Back to my point, Elway is a good example though because to last in the NFL as an athletic QB you can go to ways

1) Elway's - Transition from athlete to pocket passer

or

2) Steve Young - Athlete that used his running ability often that led to numerous concussions that cut his career short.


Obviously not everyone is going to fall into this...but as a general rule of thumb the more you run the more you are going to get hit and thus increase your chance to be injured and by taking off and running for say 10 yards you might not be looking at the wide open WR down the field for 30 yards..
No disagreements with this post, however I would question whether or not Elway was a good passer early in his career. I've always described Elway as a playmaker the first five years of his career and less an accomplished passer; Elway was a guy who could run well enough and pass competently enough for the Broncos to win games and get to SBs.

But it was the 4th quarter when Elway became an exceptional player and elevated his game.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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Lets also not forget that pocket passers miss time for injuries as well. Brady & Manning have both missed a year. Tony Romo missed time 2 years ago I think after a sack against the Giants. Schaub missed the end of last year, Alex Smith obviously got injured too. Can't remember all of these injury situations, but they certainly aren't run-option QBs, just Qs trying to make a play.
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Old 06-18-2013, 11:54 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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Lets also not forget that pocket passers miss time for injuries as well. Brady & Manning have both missed a year. Tony Romo missed time 2 years ago I think after a sack against the Giants. Schaub missed the end of last year, Alex Smith obviously got injured too. Can't remember all of these injury situations, but they certainly aren't run-option QBs, just Qs trying to make a play.
Very true, but the difference is the injuries that occur to the pocket passer would be possible for any QB to get from a blindside sack etc.


Injuries that the mobile QBs would be getting would most likely not be applicable to the pocket QBs such as Mike Vicks ribs or Steve Youngs concussions...


im not saying mobile qbs are the only ones that get hurt, but they are raising their % of becoming a ball carrier and thus raising the number of times that they are potential targets.

This raise in targets and lowering their protection from the rules that QBs get... is a big cause for concern because while a blind side sack is very dangerous, factoring in lets say 120 rushing attempts and 36 sacks, that is allowing the D to hit your QB exponetially higher than say a pocket guy that gets sacked 21 times combined with 23 rushing attempts is around 1/3 of the possibilties that the D could Tee off on the QB and cause a potential injury.



**In a perfect world i would love a Peyton Manning with Cam Newton size and Mike Vicks Speed.... but its not possible, so with that said give me the guy that is not one rushing attempt from a bum ankle, rib or concussion. Give me a guy that will stand tall in the pocket and scan the field instead of just taking off once he feels a little pressure.


Longevity is what im going for in a franchise QB not someone that will make sports center a couple times a year but is hurt for a couple games also.

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Old 06-18-2013, 11:15 PM    (permalink
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Regarding Steve Young...

The majority of the diagnosed concussions he suffered were on designed pass plays.

The two, most major concussions are somewhat indicative. In 1997 versus the Buccaneers, Young attempted to avoid a broken pocket on a roll-out and was kneed in the head after being sacked.

The career-ending concussion in 1999, was a crushing sack, dead in the center of the pocket when Lawrence Phillips didn't pick up a blitz from Aeneas Williams.

Those two major concussions, with the last being the 2nd in 3 weeks (also behind the line of scrimmage) were what ended his career.

It would be difficult to directly correlate his knack for running the ball with these injuries.
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Old 06-22-2013, 10:27 AM    (permalink
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Towards the end of the year, Kaepernick really displayed his pocket presence and used the legs when things broke down and saw the running room. In that instance, Kap is extremely scary for opposing defenses. He can sit back and throw beautiful lasers on the money and if you pressure him, he's strong enough to bounce off and his 4.5 speed is on display.

Kap is a guy who will just adjust to anything in my opinion. Smart, confident, level headed. Just think a full off-season as the starter and reps will do for him. Niners will be scary.

I like Russell Wilson a lot as well. I think he is going to be that type of QB that is scrappy in the pocket. Excellent awareness, smart intelligent, and can make plays with his feet. Not as dangerous as Kap, but right behind him. I think these two guys are built to play Qb for the long haul.

RG III? I have had mixed opinions on him since he came out. Although he had a good rookie season, I just don't see him being durable in this league. He has a fragile frame to begin with. Excellent athlete, but I question his ability to become a drop back passer. His legs and speed were his main threat, and it opened up the pass. I compare him to mike vick, although he's more accurate. However, durability is going to be an issue. Even if he changes his style of play, can he take the hits in the pocket? he's what, 6'2 210-215 ? He's already had a concussion and torn acl. QB is one position that you rarely see a torn ACL injury occur. Not saying he can't recover, but you look at how big RGIII is and wonder, can he continue to take the punishment?
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Old 06-22-2013, 11:02 AM    (permalink
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RG3 was 6'2, 223# at the combine, and he's 225# this offseason. It's not frailty that his problem, it's the decisions he makes when he runs, like deciding to run back into the heart of pursuit because he thinks he can score on any carry.

If you think RG3's main threats were his athleticism and speed, you simply didn't watch many snaps he played last season.

CK and Russell Wilson play behind massive olines and have the luxury to drop back and survey the the field. That's not the case in D.C., which is partly why Kyle and Mike SHanahan innovated read option/pistol concepts for the SKins offense, to slow down the pass rush.

Remember the SKins ran the read-option on about 20% of their offensive snaps. RG3 still was the league's best passer under heavy pressure(1-2+ blitzers).

I still think CK long term has slightly more upside; huge frame, bigger arm and very similar game speed to RG3. I just don't like hearing people drop that RG3's biggest threat posed to defenses is his legs.

He was a pass first guy at Baylor and he's still a pass first guy in the NFL. Don't be distracted because he happens to possess cornerback speed.

The only thing he and Mike Vick have in common IMO are athletic ability and arm strength. From the neck up they are nothing alike as passers or how they play the game.
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Old 06-22-2013, 11:32 AM    (permalink
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RG3 was 6'2, 223# at the combine, and he's 225# this offseason. It's not frailty that his problem, it's the decisions he makes when he runs, like deciding to run back into the heart of pursuit because he thinks he can score on any carry.

If you think RG3's main threats were his athleticism and speed, you simply didn't watch many snaps he played last season.

CK and Russell Wilson play behind massive olines and have the luxury to drop back and survey the the field. That's not the case in D.C., which is partly why Kyle and Mike SHanahan innovated read option/pistol concepts for the SKins offense, to slow down the pass rush.

Remember the SKins ran the read-option on about 20% of their offensive snaps. RG3 still was the league's best passer under heavy pressure(1-2+ blitzers).

I still think CK long term has slightly more upside; huge frame, bigger arm and very similar game speed to RG3. I just don't like hearing people drop that RG3's biggest threat posed to defenses is his legs.

He was a pass first guy at Baylor and he's still a pass first guy in the NFL. Don't be distracted because he happens to possess cornerback speed.

The only thing he and Mike Vick have in common IMO are athletic ability and arm strength. From the neck up they are nothing alike as passers or how they play the game.
They can list RG III at 225 all they want, but when I look at CK and Wilson compared to RG III, those two are thicker. RG III has the thinner frame.

100% agree with you that he needs to improve in his decisions when running outside the pocket and when to slide and get out of bounds. I think that will come, but I still question if he can take the hits a normal QB will take. Also, I just think he has that instinct that could be hard to break as is to run and make a play out of it, thus, exposing himself to hits.
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