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Old 06-24-2013, 09:49 AM    (permalink
AntoinCD
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Originally Posted by jth1331 View Post
lol what?????
It's not actually that ridiculous to say. Amendola has better long speed, is as quick as Welker, probably has better hands and is a threat to be way more explosive. What he lacks compared to Welker is an unbelievable chemistry with Brady and the ability to stay healthy.

Put it this way, if Amendola stays healthy for 16 games (big IF), I predict he will surpass Welker's totals in yards and TDs from last year, but maybe not the total of receptions.

Now Welker's worth to the Pats was way more than his catch total, yardage etc, often those little dump offs for 5 or 6 yards ended up being drive sustainers and it is debatable to see whether Amendola can do that too, however in terms of skillsets the Pats upgraded. However it is all how it translates on the field which will determine how it ends up.

I wouldn't be surprised if Amendola absolutely blows up for the Pats and puts up stupid numbers, though I also wouldn't be surprised if he never really topped his totals from his St Louis days and ends up inactive through injury more often than not
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:36 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
and you know, his route running and general ability as a slot receiver. but whatever. let's act like the .07 second 40-yard time difference is meaningful, real quick.
I wasn't referring to his 40 time because being honest neither guy has what would be described as a great 40. I was talking about his ability to get behind defenders vertically, something which Welker struggled with, as you will see all too close this season.

And yes, while it is only offseason workouts, but Amendola has drawn praise for his precise routes and quickness out of his breaks.

I am not naive, nor blindly homeristic enough to believe Amendola can replicate Welker's production in New England given that Welker put up all time numbers here, but I don't think it's that ridiculous a statement to see that from a talent level Amendola is every bit, and IMO more, the talent that Welker was however the other things such as health and chemistry with the QB are what set Welker apart.

Bear in mind some Pats fans, and most others just assumed that Welker's production can easily be replicated by pretty much anyone. Now I stated numerous times that this notion is ridiculous and that football is more than just being the biggest, fastest guy on the field.

Welker's intangibles (chemsitry, work ethic, toughness, intelligence etc) are what made him the best slot WR of all time in New England. I am not saying Amendola is all of a sudden going to become the best of all time simply because he is in the right place, but his abilities, once again IMO, are better than Welker's.

As I mentioned he can get behind defenses, he is more explosives in his breaks, he has better hands, his route running isn't something to be sniffed at, he offers more positional flexibility than Welker (he can line up on the perimeter) - if you remember when the Pats went 2 WRs at the start of the year Welker wasn't in that package due to his inability to win on the perimeter.

But Amendola's success, or lacktherof, will be dependent on 2 things:

1. His ability to stay healthy - historically he hasn't. If he isn't on the field it doesn't matter what he can do

2. His chemistry with Brady - we have seen it so often throughout the years. If Brady doesn't trust the WR to run the right route or make the catch he just won't throw it to him. At times Brady force fed the ball to Welker simply because he knew he would be in the right place at the right time.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:41 AM    (permalink
Denver Bronco56
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I wasnt a big Welker fan, but you have to respect him and what he does.

When i see other slot receivers ahead of him on lists it's a joke, plain and simple for a couple reasons.

1) Playing in the slot isnt about the biggest or the fastest player if that was the case slot receivers would be no different than the typical #1 receiver and be in the 6'2"+ range....Its about quickness and knowing the ins and outs of route running


2)He has proven year after year after year, he cant be stopped doing what a slot receiver is suppsoed to do. That is go across the middle expose the holes between the LBs and Safties while in zone and be able to beat the nickle guy in man. I mean he simply gets open

3)Another thing he get a knock for (for whatever reason) is his amount of receptions but low yard per catch numbers.... Ladies and Gentlemen he is a SLOT RECEIVER, he isnt running routes downfield for the most part. He is exploiting holes in the underneath coverage that allows for a security blanket, and most importantly EXTENDS drives.

As a broncos fan i have seen first hand how damaging it is if you cant convert on 3rd downs (The ravens game) it doesnt matter how many big plays you have if you are not able to convert 3rd downs during drives that would have led TD's or field goals those drives are turned into punts... The value of someone that is always open for a 1st down to keep a play going is a HUGE HUGE HUGE value.




So in a nutshell im not out here trying to lobby for Wes Welker to be in the discussion for top 5 WR or something(even though his stats are better than anyones over the last 5 years...) Because he isnt a #1 receiver, he is not even the best WR on the broncos.


BUT!!! in terms of slot receivers and the responsibilites that the position comes with(he has been hands down the best slot receiver over the last 5 or so years and arguably the best ever). There is not a better slot receiver, that doesnt mean he is the biggest, the fastest etc... it simply means he does what a slot receiver is supposed to better than anyone else lining up in slot position and has yet to show any indication that he is declining.

People want to point out the chemistry with Brady, i completly understand chemistry is important and Peyton Manning does also thats why he is spending alot of time with him outside of otas and minicamp to get some extra work in. And knowing how much Peyton uses his slot receiver i dont expect Welker to see a big drop off in production, with Decker and Thomas he wont be the "Go-to-Guy" but his presence alone will cause nightmares for Defences and then not really allow for any one guy to get special attention because any of the 3 WRs are capable of being the guy it should be very special to watch.

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Old 06-24-2013, 10:51 AM    (permalink
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Talking about this "I'd take blah blah blah" over Peyton in the playoffs is bushit and this is why. It's the ultimate team game. One person can only give you so much and the other factors play a bigger part collectively and the sample sizes so small that it's all just really bull crap in the end. Brady is an Adam Vinatiere(sp?) from being Jim Kelly and a few lucky plays on the other end from being above Montana and the GOAT without much of a debate.
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I want to frame this post and put it on my wall. Some people have a hard time wrapping their head around this.

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Old 06-24-2013, 11:08 AM    (permalink
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I want to frame this post and put it on my wall. Some people have a hard time wrapping their head around this.

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Agreed.... The Pat's would be this generation's Bills had it not been for Mr.Clutch's kicks (Vinatieri)
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:29 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i'm not even a big welker fan (frankly, i thought signing him was a horrible decision, and am still firmly against it), but given what amendola has done so far in his career, i see no reasonable way to suggest that he's better or more talented, unless we're talking purely from a vernon-gholston-esque way, which is completely irrelevant to anything.
Talent is NOT Amendolas problem. Trust me. I'm a niner fan and have seen my share of him. Dudes oozing with talent.

He's just made of glass.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by njx9 View Post
i'm not even a big welker fan (frankly, i thought signing him was a horrible decision, and am still firmly against it), but given what amendola has done so far in his career, i see no reasonable way to suggest that he's better or more talented, unless we're talking purely from a vernon-gholston-esque way, which is completely irrelevant to anything.
EXACTLY, as a Broncos fan I'm all about giving Peyton more weapons for his disposal but Welker wouldnt have been my top choice....

But yeah unless we are going off combine numbers from years ago there is no reason,proof, any idication Amendola is even in the same class as Welker.

Welker has done things NO OTHER PLAYER HAS EVER DONE, so to even compare someone that cant stay healthy to one of the best ever is not reasonable.

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Old 06-24-2013, 11:43 AM    (permalink
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Talent is NOT Amendolas problem. Trust me. I'm a niner fan and have seen my share of him. Dudes oozing with talent.

He's just made of glass.
Staying healthy is a HUGE part of being good...

If you can only give me a couple games a year it doesnt matter how much you are "oozing".... Because the guy that can play in 16+ games a year will most likely outproduce everytime and be there when his team needs him.
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Old 06-24-2013, 12:05 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Denver Bronco56 View Post
Staying healthy is a HUGE part of being good...

If you can only give me a couple games a year it doesnt matter how much you are "oozing".... Because the guy that can play in 16+ games a year will most likely outproduce everytime and be there when his team needs him.
I don't really understand what you're trying to say. I pointed out that he's made of glass.

Talent, IMO, has nothing to do with ability to stay healthy. It's your ability to produce IF healthy.
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Old 06-24-2013, 12:42 PM    (permalink
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i'm not sure where anyone said it was a problem. but, based on nothing, he's not simply better than an established player, 'just because'. in his one full season, he didn't show anything to support the original assertion.
I jumped to that after the Vernon Gholston name drop. I remember him being rather ineffective even if healthy.
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Old 06-24-2013, 01:40 PM    (permalink
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I jumped to that after the Vernon Gholston name drop. I remember him being rather ineffective even if healthy.
Njx9 was simply referring to the Gholston statement as to having nothing but measurables as the reasoning for people saying Danny is just as good or will be better than Wes. There is nothing Danny has done over his career to even consider him close in terms of slot receiver status.


I dont see the fact of being a little taller and faster as any basis to simply say he will be better either.

If people want to point out the insane chemistry with Brady as a reason for Wes' production then you have to also take that into consideration when thinking Danny will be able to step in, he hasnt played a single snap with Brady... so if you are going to knock Wes and say it was simply the chemisty then you have to hold that against Danny also. But again speed and size in the slot doesnt beat route running and knowledge when playing in the slot.

If that was all that mattered than the slot receiver would be just another #1 or #2 guy... but it is about getting open, going across the middle and being able to find the hole in the zone, and knowing that instead of getting hit by CBs you are going to be most likely getting hit by LBs and Safties. So Danny's history of being made of glass isnt going to help him in the same role as a Welker.
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Old 06-24-2013, 02:31 PM    (permalink
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But my top 10 would be in the following order

1) Denver

Simply look at the roster on paper and they upgraded their weak areas (DT, HB and secondary) they have brought in a proven pass rusher in Phillips to help minimize the lose of Dumervil (who was a liability in the running game, but still was one of my favorite players)

They had a very good group of cornerbacks and brought in DRC at very little risk but could show the talent he had displayed before going to the "dream team". They have one of/if not the best nickle backs in the game in Chris Harris. Quenton Jammer was brought in to play saftey and if that doesnt really workout he can always provide CB depth.

Their Offense should not only be better simply by the addition of Wes Welker and the draft class, but the healthy of Peyton Manning and his arm is not really discussed but from all reports is much stronger than where he was last year..considering he had his 2nd best year statistically last year it will be interesting to watch how he does this year. Demaryius Thomas and Eric Decker should get better and throw in Welker and potentially a healthy Julius Thomas (my "camp" guy this year) Manning could quite easily have the best targets he has ever had in his career.

If Montee Bal is who we think he is, he should provide everything Willis McGahee brought to the table plus the idea of actually staying healthy(fingers crossed)



2) Green Bay

Dont have a huge write up like I do for Denver, but they appear to doing just fine with Rodgers at the healm. The addition of Lacy should provide some threat to Defenses that could allow somethings to open in the passing game.

The loss of Jennings is going to hurt in the sense of losing a player of his caliber is NEVER a good thing, but considering he wasnt on the field much of last season anyways a player that can step up and stay healthy should help them out. They still have good targerts for Rodgers and their Offense shouldnt have any issues.



3) Atlanta

Their Offense is loaded and their WRs should continue to provide Ryan with great targets and being able to bring back Gonzo at TE should help. My question with them is the running game and will they be able to play defense enough to allow their Offense to build some leads?



4) San Francisco

They have built a team that could honestly beat anyone on any sunday because they have an Awesom defense and a good Oline. Throw in that they have a good stable of Running backs and a top 5 TE, who from reports might actually move to WR in certain situations to help ease the lose of Crabtree.

The concern i have with them is how will Kapernick be? Is he going to pick off where he left off last year? or Is he going to hit some growing pains? Is he going to be even better? If he does come back better then the sky is the limit for them.



5) Seattle

Very Similar reasoning and write up as the 49ers, they have all the talent in the world but it will come down to QB play. I really like their squad but again it isnt all about bringing in a bunch of big names, if that was the case the Skins from the early 2000's would have won multiple SBs



6) New England

The team is playing in an easy conference and with Tom Brady at the healm and BB calling the shots they should be competitive, but with questions regarding their two best targets in Hernandez and Gronk coupled with the loss of Wes Welker im not sure who Tom is going to throw to.

They do have a solid running game now so they should be fine but again alot of questions keep them from being higher.



7) New Orleans

Kind of a suprise pick but Drew Brees is back with his guy in Sean Payton and I believe they will pick off where they left off before Bounty Gate.

They are not really loaded at any given position but Drew Brees has never had an issue of spreading the ball around and with Jimmy Graham and Colston he still has some weapons.



8) Houston

They should as always(thanks to the Broncos made famous running scheme) a solid ground game, tied in with Andre Johnson coming back and the drafting of Hopkins they Texans should be fine on Offense.

They are getting Cushing back and they still have managed to elude the league and have been able to get Superman eligble to play DE for them they just told him to say his name is JJ Watt.



9) Indianapolis

The team had a remarkable turn around with Luck at the healm and they should only get better. Much like Seattle and San Francisco this team will go as far as their Sophomore QBs take them.


The 10th spot was tough because i see a couple teams that could suprise us..but in the end I went with the team that has the least boom or bust feel..

I was thinking of the Ravens ( but they lost alot of talent and their heart and soul), the Lions (But if last season was any indication..they could win 10 games or they could win 4..) and the Vikings (but they are in my opinion going to be decent only because of Peterson, unless Ponder can shoulder some of the load the team is not going to be any better then they were last season and again Ponder's performance is key so they could be worse taking in account I dont see Peterson having another MVP season)



10) Pittsburgh

The team might have found a replacement for Mike Wallace and also a solid running back in Bell. They know what they are doing on the defensive side of the ball and with Troy coming back healthy they should be fine, Jarvis Jones should be able to step in and help but again that is a big question.

But in the end Big Ben is a top QB and should be able to work his Big Ben magic and if they have a healthy HB coupled with a deep threat this team could be right up there at seasons end.
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:48 PM    (permalink
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The patriots didn't sign Amendola because of a 40 time or vertical. They signed him because when he's healthy he is a legitimate playmaker.

It's your right to defend Welker, but acting like Amendola is a talentless workout warrior just isn't the right way to do it.
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:15 PM    (permalink
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Agreed.... The Pat's would be this generation's Bills had it not been for Mr.Clutch's kicks (Vinatieri)
Or maybe they would have won SB XXXVIII without the drama had Vinatieri just hit the first 2 kicks he missed in that SB.
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Old 06-24-2013, 07:06 PM    (permalink
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Instead of a regular power ranking, I'm going to list the top 10 teams I'd be most worried about coming from the Seahawks perspective. I'm not going to rank them, because it always depends on the week, the momentum, injuries, focus, etc.

San Francisco - Quite a lot has been made of Michael Crabtree's injury, but looking at their roster they actually have quite a bit of young talent at receiver. AJ Jenkins should make some strides this year, they drafted in Vance McDonald and Quinton Patton, they've got Vernon Davis and brought in Anquan Boldin. That group by itself looks pretty good on paper and Mario Manningham is coming back from an injury as well. Getting the young guys experience early in the year could mean the 9ers are stacked and primed to make a strong run later in the season. I'm going to say I believe in Kaepernick, too. The colors he wears make me want to trash talk by default, but I definitely think he has what it takes to win. We already know the defense and offensive line are solid, and they've got some nice young running backs to take the pressure off of Frank Gore and keep a fresh rotation churning all game. A well-rounded, deep team with some exceptional talents at key positions.

Denver - This team is tailor-made to get Peyton a shot at another Super Bowl before he retires. This is the best group of wideouts he's had since Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne and Brandon Stokley were in Indianapolis and in their prime at the same time. I think Denver's defense is a little suspect on the back end, but their offense is built for a shootout, and that means I don't expect them to ever be out of the game.

New England - this team isn't looking as strong as it has in recent years, but they've got some running backs that I like and the foundation to stay competitive. If I was ranking them, the Pats would probably be closer to the bottom of the top-10, but they're still in there. I can't call them a Super Bowl contender right now.

Miami - surprised? I think Miami's going to make the playoffs this year. Big fan of Tannehill. Mike Wallace is the perfect receiver for that offense. Not a whole lot to say about this team other than that I like Tannehill a lot and expect him to make big strides with the additions of Wallace and Dustin Keller.

St Louis - they have a seriously underrated defense and have given us problems lately. Also, Bradford has legitimate weapons for literally the first time in his career. I also have a feeling that Tavon Austin is the kind of player who's capable of torching our defense.

Arizona - another terrific defense who would appear to have fixed its offensive problems this offseason. No one thinks that they're done thinking about quarterback or running back, but for this year, I fully expect them to be a dangerous team. Carson Palmer is going to be very focused. He knows he's never going to land in a situation this good ever again. If Malcolm Floyd turns the switch, teams are going to have a very, very hard time defending the pass against them, and I also expect Rashard Mendenhall to be motivated and determined to show he's still got the skills that got him drafted in the first round. Arizona's defense is so good that the offense only needs to be competent for them to be a dangerous team, and I think they could be more than that.

New York Giants - I believe in Eli.

Green Bay
Atlanta
Cincinnati
Indianapolis


And I'm tired of writing. Indianapolis is going to be an offensive juggernaut in Andrew Luck's second year. Atlanta is a well-rounded, deep team with a good defense and explosive players on offense. Cincinnati just needs Andy Dalton to manage their offense and everyone else can take care of the rest. If Cincy had a top-tier quarterback they'd be a sexy Super Bowl pick. They're pretty stacked right now. Green Bay has the best quarterback in the league. (for now)
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Old 06-24-2013, 08:06 PM    (permalink
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please quote where i called him talentless, or called him a workout warrior. i said suggesting he'd be an upgrade because of some numbers on paper is ridiculous.
The talentless thing wasn't directed at you.

Comparing him to Vernon Gholston is calling him a workout warrior. That comparison was as lousy as it gets.
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Old 06-24-2013, 08:10 PM    (permalink
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Danny Amendola is better than Wes Welker in more or less the same way that Brandon Graham is better than Jason Pierre-Paul.

Edit: on second thought, I don't think that's true, either.
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Old 06-24-2013, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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unless we're talking purely from a vernon-gholston-esque way, which is completely irrelevant to anything.
Explain 'Vernon Gholston-esque' to us folk who can't read please
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Old 06-24-2013, 08:31 PM    (permalink
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I like Amendola and think he's not made of glass, just had some bad luck.
But he'll be playing outdoors now instead of that indoor turf in St Louis, and I see him staying healthier this year than ever.... he's going to be a fantasy stud, especially with Hernandez behind bars and Gronkowski (also made of glass?) out for awhile.
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Old 06-24-2013, 09:03 PM    (permalink
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I don't see route running, YAC, or hands as measurables but maybe I'm just old fashioned.
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Old 06-25-2013, 03:03 AM    (permalink
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Amendola is a really hard worker. He is focused, he is a quick learner, a student of the game. He will give everything he has. He also has trouble staying healthy; I'm not sure if he is fragile or if he has just had a string of bad luck. We will see what the future holds. For what it's worth, I never felt like the Rams had any intention of giving him big money, and that belief was based solely on his inability to stay healthy.

Is he better than Welker? It's hard to say. Welker definitely gets loose for YAC more often. How much of that is his ability, and how much of it was the fact that Amendola was almost always the only receiver that had a lot of respect from defenses? I will say this, though...Welker has had 5 seasons with 100+ catches and 1000+ yards. If 5 is the over/under for Amendola doing the same thing in his career, I would have to take the under.
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Old 06-25-2013, 04:27 AM    (permalink
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I'm not sure where the idea of Amendola putting up better measurables is coming from. They're pretty much the same, athletically. Amendola's production has been hampered by his inability to stay on the field, but his career in St. Louis has been a lot like Welker's was in Miami, and this just looks like a classic Patriots move where they bring in a player of lesser reputation that they think can replace a more-expensive veteran's role in their offense. I don't think there's that much to talk about. I think if Amendola stays healthy there's a good chance he finishes in the neighborhood of 100 catches, but it's just a stat. That's just the job description for slot receivers in New England. He doesn't need to beat anyone over the top, he just needs to make quick breaks in the middle of the field, which is what he does best, and Brady will make sure the ball is there at the right time.
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Old 06-25-2013, 05:06 AM    (permalink
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I'm not sure where the idea of Amendola putting up better measurables is coming from. They're pretty much the same, athletically. Amendola's production has been hampered by his inability to stay on the field, but his career in St. Louis has been a lot like Welker's was in Miami, and this just looks like a classic Patriots move where they bring in a player of lesser reputation that they think can replace a more-expensive veteran's role in their offense. I don't think there's that much to talk about. I think if Amendola stays healthy there's a good chance he finishes in the neighborhood of 100 catches, but it's just a stat. That's just the job description for slot receivers in New England. He doesn't need to beat anyone over the top, he just needs to make quick breaks in the middle of the field, which is what he does best, and Brady will make sure the ball is there at the right time.
I think what Amendola will offer the Patriots will be slightly different to what Welker brought to the table. The Pats right now don't have anyone who can stretch the field vertically on the outside (Dobson could be the guy if he develops). However, Amendola can stretch the seams and get behind safeties from the slot - watch the STL v SF game from last year. The Pats offense will once again be different this year because as it looks right now there is nobody on the perimeter who is worthy of attracting extra attention, at least Lloyd had some production last year. Therefore I see Amendola being used as the guy who can back off safeties.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:13 AM    (permalink
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I think what Amendola will offer the Patriots will be slightly different to what Welker brought to the table. The Pats right now don't have anyone who can stretch the field vertically on the outside (Dobson could be the guy if he develops). However, Amendola can stretch the seams and get behind safeties from the slot - watch the STL v SF game from last year. The Pats offense will once again be different this year because as it looks right now there is nobody on the perimeter who is worthy of attracting extra attention, at least Lloyd had some production last year. Therefore I see Amendola being used as the guy who can back off safeties.
It will be interesting to see what good ole' Josh McDaniels will cook up with the injury to Gronk, possible jail time for Hernandez and the addition with Danny.

I assumed he would come in and play the Welker role, but he might come in an be a down the field guy who knows... It will def. be interesting.




BUT to touch on it one more time the lack of respect for what Welker has done over the time in NE is arguably the best production from a slot WR in the history of the game.... Again im not saying he is a Jerry Rice kind of player, im simply saying as a slot WR he has done what no other player has done(Take into account that the 3+ wr formations are becoming more and more the base package as of late)

So comparing him to a guy that has never had more than 700 yards receiving and has always whether it be bad luck or glass bones found a way into the training room and not being able to help his teams is ridiculous.

The comparison is selling Welker so short it is like saying " I think this other WR that is 6'6 but really hasnt done anything can be just as good if not better than Calvin Johnson."

AGAIN I dont think he is even the best WR on the Broncos, but i do still think he is the best slot WR in the game and arguably the best ever.
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Old 06-25-2013, 08:39 AM    (permalink
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Another thread that turns into a Patriots thread?
Carry on gents.......
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