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Old 07-19-2013, 11:11 AM    (permalink
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And LeBeau and Capers ran essentially the exact same scheme, but Capers runs more man coverage and LeBeau more zone. LeBeau learned a lot of his principles under Capers.

Plus he changed much of his scheme under Tomlin to reflect more of a Tampa 2 style defense that Tomlin runs. Tomlin's wrinkles are all over the current Steelers defense.

You're giving LeBeau way more credit than he rightfully deserves.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:36 AM    (permalink
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Didn't we have a shot at Capers? Why'd we pass and who did we pass on him for? Someone please refresh my memory on this one.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:39 AM    (permalink
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Didn't we have a shot at Capers? Why'd we pass and who did we pass on him for? Someone please refresh my memory on this one.
We did have a shot at Capers. In fact we had first dibs. We passed bc we wanted to keep the same 4-3 defense we just won a SB with under Spags and wanted to keep the same scheme, so we promoted Bill Sheridan hoping he'd run the same scheme as Spagnuolo.

In the end, sticking with the 4-3 defense was the right move, we just picked the wrong coordinator.

And Dom has fallen off quite a bit now. He's getting long in the tooth, it happens to the best of them. Dom was the first DC smart enough to make the nickel his base defense though. He realized you rather give up 150 on the ground instead of 350 in the air. It took other DCs a little longer to accept this reality.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:42 AM    (permalink
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Uggh that was another mess up then. Capers still a million times better than Sheridan.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:46 AM    (permalink
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But we don't get JPP if we go 3-4 defense and probably don't win the SB in 2011.

So it worked out in the end. We need to stick to a 4-3 defense as long as JPP can recover successfully from his back surgery. He's the building block we need to build around.

If he can't recover, then I'm totally fine with going to a 3-4 defense in the future.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:53 AM    (permalink
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I'm being greedy but I want a 3rd Manning/Coughlin SB. We need it.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:55 AM    (permalink
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It's possible. We have the offense for it. We just need a defensive overhaul.

We don't have the roster for one right now, but maybe one good offseason that's defense heavy can get us where we need to be.
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Old 07-19-2013, 11:57 AM    (permalink
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Our defense is going to be so awful this year. It's just bad. The back 7 is loaded with turtles and we lost some pass rush sizzle.

It's gonna be bad.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:11 PM    (permalink
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I think you're making it out to be way worse than it will be. I don't understand the Knicks homerism who haven't given you a reason to believe in decades but you rag on the Giants. Mind boggled.
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Old 07-19-2013, 12:21 PM    (permalink
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I think you're making it out to be way worse than it will be. I don't understand the Knicks homerism who haven't given you a reason to believe in decades but you rag on the Giants. Mind boggled.
I'm much harsher with the Giants bc I expect success. Whereas the Knicks...half of that is for fun. Plus in basketball you always have a chance if your star gets hot.

Football is more team oriented, coach oriented, there's a lot more to it.

We have potential on defense with some unproven guys, but it's such a hard sell man. Like we literally have to hope for every piece to fall in place to have a good defense this year.

What I see is, we lost some pass rush. We lost Osi. Tuck is Tuck. JPP is going to play hurt for awhile, Moore is an unproven commodity who may be too slow to play in this league (could also be a diamond in the rough), Kiwi is a JAG, and Tracy is unproven. Too many ifs there.

Our DT group improved. I'll give us that.

Our LBs are just awful. You can't spin it any other way. I think we improved our run stuffing in the LB core but the coverage is going to be brutal. Only hope we have is if JWill can get and stay healthy. But this is not a strong unit.

Our secondary is slow. That's the truth. Webster is older now, Prince is good but he's not a burner but i do expect growth from him. Ross is old and stiff. Thomas is coming off of 3 ACLs. Hoseley has potential but strictly as a nickel. Rolle is more of SS/nickel CB than a FS. He takes horrible angles. We have no idea who our SS is gonna be.

We have a lot of question marks that are hard to ignore. Oh and Perry Fewell.

It's just a hard sell right now if you want to be realistic about it.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:26 PM    (permalink
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Thats just not accurate bro. He had Tim Lewis yes, but before Tim Lewis he had Dom Capers who was every bit the DC if not better than LeBeau. And he didn't win a SB with Capers either.

Cowher had great success but no SBs until he got a quarterback. That's pretty much it.

You can't give LeBeau credit for the SBs. That's not fair at all. LeBeau was also DC in Pittsburgh in the mid 90s and Cowher didn't win a SB then with him either.

He won a SB bc of Ben. Not LeBeau. Pittsburgh always had a great defense. Before LeBeu, and they will after.


I disagree big time. Capers was good but left. Dick L. took them to a SB. They lost to a Dallas team. Ben was good but you are not factoring Ken W. in the picture. He was my favorite OC. Excellent system that was the antithesis of our system. We throw like 557 times, and he had Ben in a training wheel system. Run, Run, play action and it was so well designed.

You had 3 Qbs on the field at any given time with Ben, Ward, and Randel el. They won the Sb despite Big Ben. Lowest QB rating for a SB winning QB. 22.6 I believe it was. That trick play El to Ward was beautiful. Just a great play call.

Dick Lebeau is the reason for their success. Their defensive players nearly threw a fit when Lewis was there. I posted articles on this on giants.com, before I was a BBI member. I went over this in detail because I talked to my best friend and cousins. They warned me about Tim lewis. Prior, Cowher had our very own Gilbride.

I followed them. A QB helped but the Dick L. again was the catalyst who fit perfectly with Ken Whisenhunt. You give credit to him because of the 4 appearances and 2 wins. That trio of Cowher, KW, and DL, reminded me of TC, Spags, and Gilbride. It was the perfect trio. They had the perfect trio but it's DL's defense which is ranked top 10 since 2004.


Total Defense Rank

..........Pitts..................NYG
------------------------------[Fewell]
2012....1......................31
2011....1......................27
2010....2.......................7
-----------------------------[Sheridan]
2009....5.......................13
----------------------------[Spags]
2008....1.......................5
2007.....1......................7
...........................................[Tim Lewis]
2006.....9......................25
2005.....4......................24
2004.....1.......................13





Total Offense Rank

..........Pitts..................NYG

2012....21......................14
2011....12......................08
2010....14.......................05

2009....14.......................08

2008....22.......................07
2007.....17......................16
...........................................[Huffangel]
2006.....07......................14
2005.....15......................04
2004.....16.......................23



They had the 16th ranked offense, but that mixed with the # 1 total defense was what got them to win. You're giving props to a guy who defecated the bed in the 1st Sb. He played well in the playoffs but the SB, the biggest game he set the all time lowest QB rating. That's just god awful.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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Ken Whistenhunt looked great when he had Big Ben and Kurt Warner at qb. 2 HOF quarterbacks. He looked like dog **** when he didn't. Coincidence? No.

Dick LeBeau is one of the best defensive minds of the game, but to give him credit for their SBs is just flat out wrong bro, I can't get in line with that. He was part of it sure, but he's not the main reason at all.

Ben was.
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Old 07-19-2013, 01:31 PM    (permalink
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In all 3 Super Bowls that LeBeau coordinated in (this past decade), his defense was mediocre at best. Warner carved them up. Rodgers carved them up. Hasselbeck did too but then the refs screwed Seattle.

You can't say Ben played a bad SB then give LeBeau credit when he coached like **** in all the SBs he coached in.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:23 PM    (permalink
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Warner and AR are great QBs. Did you expect a shut out? I know come SB time I expect good offenses and defenses to get tested. I don't expect teams now in this time to put on a defensive clinic. I get agree to any of that.

Ben wasn't the reason for their success. He helped sure, at the end of the day lowest QB rating of any winning QB. They won despite of him. It was a great play call by KW which did wonders. KW had two QBs that could play. Is he supposed to make Kevin freaking Kolb into a stud? Did you honestly expect that? I know I didn't. I didn't expect the other QBs to do anything either.

In fact, I know that Arizona would be flavor of the year until Warner was there and drop back down to being garbage. How much of KW was in that offense? He is an offensive minded coach but was he calling the plays? Was it his system or did he let the OC do everything and just oversaw things?

My point is when Dick L. coaches you get to Sbs and win them. That's the bottom line. The litmus test is a QB setting an all time record for stinking and STILL the team wins. That's just god awful. I'll take DL's defense any given day. You can take whoever you want. I know if we have DL's defense we'd be good to go.
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Old 07-19-2013, 06:40 PM    (permalink
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I'm much harsher with the Giants bc I expect success. Whereas the Knicks...half of that is for fun. Plus in basketball you always have a chance if your star gets hot.

Football is more team oriented, coach oriented, there's a lot more to it.

We have potential on defense with some unproven guys, but it's such a hard sell man. Like we literally have to hope for every piece to fall in place to have a good defense this year.

What I see is, we lost some pass rush. We lost Osi. Tuck is Tuck. JPP is going to play hurt for awhile, Moore is an unproven commodity who may be too slow to play in this league (could also be a diamond in the rough), Kiwi is a JAG, and Tracy is unproven. Too many ifs there.

Our DT group improved. I'll give us that.

Our LBs are just awful. You can't spin it any other way. I think we improved our run stuffing in the LB core but the coverage is going to be brutal. Only hope we have is if JWill can get and stay healthy. But this is not a strong unit.

Our secondary is slow. That's the truth. Webster is older now, Prince is good but he's not a burner but i do expect growth from him. Ross is old and stiff. Thomas is coming off of 3 ACLs. Hoseley has potential but strictly as a nickel. Rolle is more of SS/nickel CB than a FS. He takes horrible angles. We have no idea who our SS is gonna be.

We have a lot of question marks that are hard to ignore. Oh and Perry Fewell.

It's just a hard sell right now if you want to be realistic about it.
To me it's not even so much the players that I'm worried about. I think the DL will be fine, we improved greatly at DT and moving Kiwi to DE/drafting Moore should help.

I think the LBs should be fine, they're that important for us anyways. With Connor, Paysinger, Williams, Herz(who apparently has been doing well), Rivers and Curry we should be ok. Plenty of room for rotation and on 3rd downs we only need two of em.

I think Prince steps it up big this year, Webster bounces back(but still nowhere near his 2011 form), Ross/Thomas/Hosley one of these guys if not 2 of them will pan out and help out the secondary. Safety is my biggest concern hands down, I think we get beat deep a lot this year, especially playing teams like GB, Chicago, Carolina and Seattle. Not only for our **** safeties/slow corners, but because Fewell sucks. Too many times have I seen our DBs get confused and **** up their assignments mainly with zone coverage.

I think this year the defense will give up a lot of deep balls. We're gonna need to force a lot of turnovers and pressure the QB to help make up for our weak secondary, but Fewell isn't aggressive enough. Next year without Fewell, guys like Moore and Hankins entering year two and most likely a new safety or two, we should see a big improvement.
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Old 07-20-2013, 09:46 AM    (permalink
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Hey, Did anyone else hear or see that MSG will be covering the Giants training camp live? Is this true? Like a set time frame where we just watch practice? That's what I envision when they say that. Anyone?

http://www.msg.com/shows/giants.html


What does this mean when you see this? Just updates or actually camera pointing towards practice?
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:22 PM    (permalink
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I will admit I am a Dick LeBeau fan. Sure it isn't always effective, teams are always adjusting.

I do think he would have been a good fit here with his no frills, physical defensive style. As for not drafting JPP, I am not sure on that either, he was rated as a 3-4 OLB in the draft and plenty of teams have used college DEs as pass rushing OLBs

I think some of the Steelers issues has been how they have assembled their roster, you can' blame a DC for that. The other factor is that 3-4 are better at defending the run, Warner and Rogers had truly amazing aerial attacks.

I think BBD is being a little harsh on DLB, but that's his opinion.

I also don't think we can purely write off our defence. Sure they were terrible last year and you are only as good as your last game. But we have reloaded, we are healthier and our coaches are good teachers. Let's see how these guys play, they do have ability. We do have a history of getting effective players from relative obscurity who can do a capable job.
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Old 07-20-2013, 10:24 PM    (permalink
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Hey, Did anyone else hear or see that MSG will be covering the Giants training camp live? Is this true? Like a set time frame where we just watch practice? That's what I envision when they say that. Anyone?

http://www.msg.com/shows/giants.html


What does this mean when you see this? Just updates or actually camera pointing towards practice?
I didn't realise this, thanks for posting. It means I will get to see more of our training camp here in australia.
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Old 07-20-2013, 11:05 PM    (permalink
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I have been looking at our schedule this year.

It is worth remembering that we had a particularly brutal schedule last year and we still ended up at 9-7 and almost play-off bound.I actually think this year's team is improved from last year's and our schedule has much better match ups for us.

Looking at the games this season and how they match up, here are my early prediction of how the Giants 2013 season unfolds.

Week 1 Dallas Cowboys - Cowboys Stadium (Win)

Week 2 Denver Broncos - MetLife Stadium (Loss)

Week 3 Carolina Panthers - Bank of America Stadium (Win)

Week 4 Kansas City Chiefs - Arrowhead Stadium (Loss)

Week 5 Philadelphia Eagles - MetLife Stadium (Win)

Week 6 Chicago Bears - Soldier Field (Win)

Week 7 Minnesota Vikings - MetLife Stadium (Win)

Week 8 Philadelphia Eagles - Lincoln Financial Field (Loss)

Week 9 Bye

Week 10 Oakland Raiders - MetLife Stadium (Win)

Week 11 Green Bay Packers - MetLife Stadium (Win)

Week 12 Dallas Cowboys - MetLife Stadium (Win)

Week 13 Washington Redskins - FedEx Field (Win)

Week 14 San Diego Chargers - Qualcomm Stadium (Loss)

Week 15 Seattle Seahawks - MetLife Stadium (Win)

Week 16 Detroit Lions - Ford Field (Win)

Week 17 Washington Redskins - MetLife Stadium (Loss)


I am picking us at 11-5

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Old 07-20-2013, 11:43 PM    (permalink
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Will Hill suspended 4 games again.
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Old 07-21-2013, 12:13 AM    (permalink
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Will Hill suspended 4 games again.
Yep. This is why I do not trust this guy. Substance abuse this time right? Any idea what it was? Not that it really matters.

Plus I don't think he's that good anyway.
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Old 07-21-2013, 12:20 AM    (permalink
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Probably weed or coke. Don't think molly gets tested for.
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Old 07-21-2013, 12:52 AM    (permalink
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It's so dumb. You KNOW you're going to be tested for this ****.
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Old 07-21-2013, 12:56 AM    (permalink
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Will Hill suspended 4 games again.
I think Will Hill could have an uphill battle for a roster spot.

Rolle and Brown are the incumbent starters, Coach Merritt is very high on Mundy and we have Cooper Taylor with a lot of potential.

I could see us taking at least 5 corners with Amukamara, Webster, Ross, Thomas, Jernigan and the last DB roster spot coming down to either Drake, Sash or Hill.
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Old 07-21-2013, 11:54 AM    (permalink
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I think Hill is done. They talk up Mundy all the time and then I have a feeling Thomas if decent moves to S.
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