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Old 08-01-2013, 01:09 PM    (permalink
Ravens1991
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I still cant believe our LB corp. Thomas had 11 sacks, Suggs had 9.5, Scott had 9.5 and Ray Lewis had 5. To go w/ 3 pro bowls in the secondary. Also Trevor Pryce had 13 sacks. Imagine if we made it to the super bowl and actually faced Rex Grossman. sweet mother of pearl that would have been savage.
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Old 08-01-2013, 01:29 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Eazy Picks View Post
yea i remember that game. I think that was the game i concluded Rex Ryan was the best defensive mind in football. He had Reed backing way up presnap and taking away anything deep and Manning didnt know what to do and then of course Reed would choose the perfect time to break on short routes. Was it Steve McNair at QB for the Ravens that year? its too bad they couldnt get a legit QB until the tail-end of Ray and Eds careers.
Yes McNair was the quarterback that year. He was fairly steady that season. In the playoffs though his performance essentially cost them the game against the Colts with two interceptions near the goal line.
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:04 PM    (permalink
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Ravens
- The D featured arguably the best MLB of all time and best safety of all time, had great years in 01,02,03,04,06,08,09,10,11.
Steelers
- Just like the Ravens have consistently had great defenses throughout the decade, 01,04,07,08,10,11 stand out to me.
Buccaneers
- Under Kiffin there defenses in the first half of the decade were outstanding. Like the Ravens their defense won them a Super Bowl.
Bears
- They had pretty good defenses in 01 before falling off and coming back in 04 or 05. Their defense single handily got them to a Super Bowl.
Dolphins or Giants
- The Dolphins defenses were superb the first half of the decade before declining for a while under Cameron but they have always been solid on defense throughout the decade. If one things for sure, it's that this team's offense was the reason they were so mediocre this past decade. On the other hand the Giants defense has been amazing as well, Strahan comes to mind. They'll always be one of my favorite defenses to watch play, especially the past 5 years.
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:14 PM    (permalink
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Yes McNair was the quarterback that year. He was fairly steady that season. In the playoffs though his performance essentially cost them the game against the Colts with two interceptions near the goal line.
yea i remember he was still a decent player but only a shell of his former self.
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:16 PM    (permalink
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best safety of time
Ronnie Lott for the win.
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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yea i remember he was still a decent player but only a shell of his former self.
He was serviceable for the regular season. Baltimore didn't know what a serviceable QB looked like so we were so stoked. But he was done by the time the post season came around. He was garbage in 2007 and we had a lot of injuries on D. We somehow almost beat the undefeated patriots that year which was just insult to injury for ppl still bitter about that colts playoff game. This lead to billick being fired and the harbaugh/Flacco reign beginning.
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Old 08-01-2013, 02:20 PM    (permalink
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Ronnie Lott for the win.
JW where do Ray, Reed and other superstars of the 2000s rank in your all time rankings?
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Old 08-01-2013, 03:19 PM    (permalink
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JW where do Ray, Reed and other superstars of the 2000s rank in your all time rankings?
Hmm....if we're just talking strictly defensive players? It's so hard to compare eras, but I'll give it a whirl. I'm going to cut it off in the 1950's cause frankly it's hard to say much about guys before TV was around. It's also hard because certain stats, like sacks, weren't recorded before 1982.

Defensive End
1) Reggie White
2) Deacon Jones
3) Bruce Smith
4) Gino Marchetti
5) Michael Strahan

Best Active: Julius Peppers (career), J.J. Watt (current)
Commentary: Nobody active is currently close to the top 5 of all-time. Peppers has peaked and is a boderline HOF guy. Watt needs a lot more seasons like last before he's even under consideration.

Defensive Tackle
1) Bob Lilly
2) "Mean" Joe Green
3) Merlin Olson
4) Randy White
5) Warren Sapp

Current: Haloti Ngata. Ngata is only 29, so there's some potential there. He's on his way to the HOF, but I don't know that he'll go down as one of the all-time greats, especially with Ray Lewis around to hog so much of the glory.

Outside Linebacker
1) Lawrence Taylor
2) Jack Ham
3) Derrick Brooks
4) Ted Hendricks
5) DeMarcus Ware

Current: DeMarcus Ware. He's already up there. Although he's a bit of a one-trick pony, he's the 2nd best 3-4 OLB of all-time without question, and basically a better version of Derrick Thomas. (Ware is helped considerably by the fact that historically, the best linebackers were always put in the middle). Clay Matthews has some potential, but I doubt he reaches top 5 level.

Inside Linebacker
1) Ray Lewis
2) Dick Butkus (tough, because Butkus was the better player, but Lewis had the better career due to health and supporting cast)
3) Mike Singletary
4) Bill George (Da Bears!)
5) Jack Lambert

Junior Seau is tough to leave off the list.

Current: It's obviously Patrick Willis. He needs more continued success as a team, but he's well on his way to being in the top 5.


Cornerback
1) Deion Sanders
2) Dick "Night Train" Lane
3) Rod Woodson
4) Mike Haynes/Willie Brown
5) Champ Bailey/Charles Woodson

Secondaries are the toughest to judge across eras (they're tough to judge even when you're watching the game because you don't know all the variables), so I kinda fudged it here.

Current: Well Bailey and Woodson are already up there. I don't think Darrelle Revis will have the longevity for being great, so that's probably it.

Safety
1) Ronnie Lott
2) Ed Reed
3) Emlen Tunnell
4) Larry Wilson
5) Ken Houston

Current: Brian Dawkins and Troy Polamalu both had great careers, but I'm not sure either is even a HOF guy. Earl Thomas is way too young to say, but the potential is certainly there.


This isn't a great era for defense. If I made an offensive list it would have a lot more current players.
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Old 08-01-2013, 03:32 PM    (permalink
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based on your post and the posst you made in the peterson/jim brown debate....its safe to say you are pretty older-school oriented

Good list, but definitely set in the old school mentality
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"He won't be able to just use his arm power to throw defenders around at the next level!"

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Old 08-01-2013, 03:35 PM    (permalink
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Ronnie Lott for the win.
When somebody told me that they thought Ed Reed was the greatest safety of all time I too thought that Ronnie Lott was a better safety, however after looking at the stats I came to the conclusion that Reed was better. Here is why:

Reed led the league in interceptions three times, Lott did twice. In 11 seasons Reed is only two interceptions shy of Ronnie Lott's total career interception number. Reed is the record holder for most interception return yards of all time and has more touchdowns off interception than Lott. Reed's FF and FR number are comparable to Lott's, in 14 season's Lott had 16 FF and 17 FR, through 11 seasons Reed has 11 FF and 13 FR. Sacks are fairly comparable too, Reed has six and Lott has eight and a half. Reed has two touchdowns off of FR, Lott has none. So in a shorter period of time Reed has more total defensive touchdowns than Lott, and Reed could meet or exceed many of Lott's career numbers.

In addition if accolades mean something in this comparison Reed has the same amount of first team All-Pro selections and just one less Pro Bowl selection as Lott, and once again this is in a shorter period of time than Lott's playing career. Also Reed won DPOY in 2004 and Lott never won the award.

If you're going to use Lott's Super Bowls to separate him from Reed I feel it should be noted that Lott had one of the best offenses of all time playing when he wasn't on the field, where as for the majority of Reed's time in Baltimore he did not have an above average QB.
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Old 08-01-2013, 04:19 PM    (permalink
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Ahhh yes, the end-all-be-all "looking at the stats" approach. Never fails.
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Old 08-01-2013, 04:42 PM    (permalink
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based on your post and the posst you made in the peterson/jim brown debate....its safe to say you are pretty older-school oriented

Good list, but definitely set in the old school mentality
Not at all. Let's review.

Guys from the 1950s= 4
Guys from the 1960s= 5
Guys from the 1970s = 5
Guys from the 1980s = 5
Guys from the 1990s = 4
Guys from the 2000-2013 = 7

There are guys that border each spot, so you could shift the numbers a bit, but the point stands.

The problem is that most people on this board don't know **** about football before 1995ish (if that).
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Old 08-01-2013, 04:44 PM    (permalink
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When somebody told me that they thought Ed Reed was the greatest safety of all time I too thought that Ronnie Lott was a better safety, however after looking at the stats I came to the conclusion that Reed was better. Here is why:

Reed led the league in interceptions three times, Lott did twice. In 11 seasons Reed is only two interceptions shy of Ronnie Lott's total career interception number. Reed is the record holder for most interception return yards of all time and has more touchdowns off interception than Lott. Reed's FF and FR number are comparable to Lott's, in 14 season's Lott had 16 FF and 17 FR, through 11 seasons Reed has 11 FF and 13 FR. Sacks are fairly comparable too, Reed has six and Lott has eight and a half. Reed has two touchdowns off of FR, Lott has none. So in a shorter period of time Reed has more total defensive touchdowns than Lott, and Reed could meet or exceed many of Lott's career numbers.

In addition if accolades mean something in this comparison Reed has the same amount of first team All-Pro selections and just one less Pro Bowl selection as Lott, and once again this is in a shorter period of time than Lott's playing career. Also Reed won DPOY in 2004 and Lott never won the award.

If you're going to use Lott's Super Bowls to separate him from Reed I feel it should be noted that Lott had one of the best offenses of all time playing when he wasn't on the field, where as for the majority of Reed's time in Baltimore he did not have an above average QB.
Look at the run/pass ratio in the past versus today. Comparing statistics in a vacuum is a gigantic waste of time.

Having seen a lot of both of them, Lott had a lot more unmeasurable value as well, especially his ability to absolutely murder and terrify people who went across the middle on him.

While you are correct that Lott never won a DMVP, that was in no small part because the peak of his career coincided with some of the greatest single talents of all-time (LT, Reggie White, Singletary), to say nothing of the fact that the year Reed won it, the Ravens were 9-7.
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Old 08-01-2013, 05:01 PM    (permalink
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Not at all. Let's review.

Guys from the 1950s= 4
Guys from the 1960s= 5
Guys from the 1970s = 5
Guys from the 1980s = 5
Guys from the 1990s = 4
Guys from the 2000-2013 = 7

There are guys that border each spot, so you could shift the numbers a bit, but the point stands.

The problem is that most people on this board don't know **** about football before 1995ish (if that).
i hear ya, i was born in 89 so i take a pretty modern approach to evaluating, but id rather do that than act like im older and saw everyone whos ever played like i see the guys now....not that i dont know the history and the legends of the game, but i can only go off of what i know. And like you said before, era to era is endless rambling.

Past is always better and tougher, present is always bigger, faster and stronger and round and round we go

like i said, good list. Mine would definitely be more modern but a lot of lock names
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The hell he won't, lol.
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Old 08-01-2013, 05:39 PM    (permalink
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Look at the run/pass ratio in the past versus today. Comparing statistics in a vacuum is a gigantic waste of time.

Having seen a lot of both of them, Lott had a lot more unmeasurable value as well, especially his ability to absolutely murder and terrify people who went across the middle on him.

While you are correct that Lott never won a DMVP, that was in no small part because the peak of his career coincided with some of the greatest single talents of all-time (LT, Reggie White, Singletary), to say nothing of the fact that the year Reed won it, the Ravens were 9-7.
While Lott did have stiff competition in certain years he had his shot at winning DPOY. The players you mentioned did win the DPOY during his best years, guys like Doug Betters, Kenny Easley, Keith Millard won the award over him. One of his best seasons, with the Raiders in 91, he lost to Pat Swilling. So although he did face stiff competition he had his chances agains't players who most would say are inferior to him.

While Lott did have an effect on WRs coming over the middle of the field, I don't think you can measure a player off an arbitrary measurement like terrifying people. That's like using clutchness to try and measure a baseball player. It's useless because you can't measure that or say when occurred. As a whole I don't think it's smart to judge a player on things you can't measure. In fact I think if you're going to say that then you could say that Ed Reed struck fear in QBs who made a conscience effort not to throw to his part of the field and tried to scheme passing patterns around him, especially as his career went on.

And while yes passing has increased since Lott's day Reed had his DPOY season in a season where he faced some of the lowest passing offenses in the league. His divisional opponents were all in the lower half of the passing offenses and he the Ravens played Buffalo and Washington who were in the bottom of third of passing.
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Old 08-01-2013, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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in the 2000s, i just always remember the bears being mentioned year after year as being a top defensive team. urlacher made everyone, who's ever been on that defense, shine
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Old 08-01-2013, 06:58 PM    (permalink
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While Lott did have stiff competition in certain years he had his shot at winning DPOY. The players you mentioned did win the DPOY during his best years, guys like Doug Betters, Kenny Easley, Keith Millard won the award over him. One of his best seasons, with the Raiders in 91, he lost to Pat Swilling. So although he did face stiff competition he had his chances agains't players who most would say are inferior to him.

While Lott did have an effect on WRs coming over the middle of the field, I don't think you can measure a player off an arbitrary measurement like terrifying people. That's like using clutchness to try and measure a baseball player. It's useless because you can't measure that or say when occurred. As a whole I don't think it's smart to judge a player on things you can't measure. In fact I think if you're going to say that then you could say that Ed Reed struck fear in QBs who made a conscience effort not to throw to his part of the field and tried to scheme passing patterns around him, especially as his career went on.

And while yes passing has increased since Lott's day Reed had his DPOY season in a season where he faced some of the lowest passing offenses in the league. His divisional opponents were all in the lower half of the passing offenses and he the Ravens played Buffalo and Washington who were in the bottom of third of passing.
Your argument isn't without merit, but football isn't baseball, and to simply shrug off things that can't be quantified I think is missing the point.
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:15 PM    (permalink
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Hmm....if we're just talking strictly defensive players? It's so hard to compare eras, but I'll give it a whirl. I'm going to cut it off in the 1950's cause frankly it's hard to say much about guys before TV was around. It's also hard because certain stats, like sacks, weren't recorded before 1982.

Defensive End
1) Reggie White
2) Deacon Jones
3) Bruce Smith
4) Gino Marchetti
5) Michael Strahan

Best Active: Julius Peppers (career), J.J. Watt (current)
Commentary: Nobody active is currently close to the top 5 of all-time. Peppers has peaked and is a boderline HOF guy. Watt needs a lot more seasons like last before he's even under consideration.

Defensive Tackle
1) Bob Lilly
2) "Mean" Joe Green
3) Merlin Olson
4) Randy White
5) Warren Sapp

Current: Haloti Ngata. Ngata is only 29, so there's some potential there. He's on his way to the HOF, but I don't know that he'll go down as one of the all-time greats, especially with Ray Lewis around to hog so much of the glory.

Outside Linebacker
1) Lawrence Taylor
2) Jack Ham
3) Derrick Brooks
4) Ted Hendricks
5) DeMarcus Ware

Current: DeMarcus Ware. He's already up there. Although he's a bit of a one-trick pony, he's the 2nd best 3-4 OLB of all-time without question, and basically a better version of Derrick Thomas. (Ware is helped considerably by the fact that historically, the best linebackers were always put in the middle). Clay Matthews has some potential, but I doubt he reaches top 5 level.

Inside Linebacker
1) Ray Lewis
2) Dick Butkus (tough, because Butkus was the better player, but Lewis had the better career due to health and supporting cast)
3) Mike Singletary
4) Bill George (Da Bears!)
5) Jack Lambert

Junior Seau is tough to leave off the list.

Current: It's obviously Patrick Willis. He needs more continued success as a team, but he's well on his way to being in the top 5.


Cornerback
1) Deion Sanders
2) Dick "Night Train" Lane
3) Rod Woodson
4) Mike Haynes/Willie Brown
5) Champ Bailey/Charles Woodson

Secondaries are the toughest to judge across eras (they're tough to judge even when you're watching the game because you don't know all the variables), so I kinda fudged it here.

Current: Well Bailey and Woodson are already up there. I don't think Darrelle Revis will have the longevity for being great, so that's probably it.

Safety
1) Ronnie Lott
2) Ed Reed
3) Emlen Tunnell
4) Larry Wilson
5) Ken Houston

Current: Brian Dawkins and Troy Polamalu both had great careers, but I'm not sure either is even a HOF guy. Earl Thomas is way too young to say, but the potential is certainly there.


This isn't a great era for defense. If I made an offensive list it would have a lot more current players.
A couple of questions/observations:

1. Strahan 5? At first I thought this might be too high, but then I went over the top 10 in my eyes, and I guess it's fair to say Strahan is top 5. Never thought of it before. I'd probably rank him ahead of Youngblood, Howie Long, Eller, Haley, Dent etc.

2. No Allan Page?

3. Gotta put Junior in the top 5. Also Willie Lanier? The top 5 MIKE list is probably the most difficult one to make bc there are so many names. I think Ray, Butkus, Singletary and Lambert have to be there. But the 5th guy is debatable. Could be Junior, could be Willie, could be Huff, could be Nitschke, etc.

4. I think by the end of Revis' career, he'll go down as the 2nd best CB ever.

5. Glad to see you have Lott ahead of Reed. Taking nothing away from Reed, but Lott was better. He was every bit the ballhawk Reed was plus he was a hell of a lot meaner and more of an enforcer.
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Old 08-01-2013, 08:50 PM    (permalink
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Being a Bucs fan that Tampa 2 D from 98 to 08 was really something to watch. It was amazing how the Ravens and Bucs were almost the same team for about a 6 year span. Bucs had Brooks, Ravens had Lewis. Ravens had Suggs/Boulware, Bucs had Rice. Bucs had Lynch, Ravens had Woodson then Reed. CB's Ravens with McAlister and Starks, Bucs Barber and Kelly.

Even Rb's... Ravens with Lewis and Holmes, Bucs had Dunn and Alsotott.

Both just didn't have a QB
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:30 PM    (permalink
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A couple of questions/observations:

1. Strahan 5? At first I thought this might be too high, but then I went over the top 10 in my eyes, and I guess it's fair to say Strahan is top 5. Never thought of it before. I'd probably rank him ahead of Youngblood, Howie Long, Eller, Haley, Dent etc.
Me too.

Quote:
2. No Allan Page?
Alan Page. And no, but you could make an argument between anyone after the top 2.

Quote:
3. Gotta put Junior in the top 5. Also Willie Lanier? The top 5 MIKE list is probably the most difficult one to make bc there are so many names. I think Ray, Butkus, Singletary and Lambert have to be there. But the 5th guy is debatable. Could be Junior, could be Willie, could be Huff, could be Nitschke, etc.
You are very much sleeping on Bill George, who basically invented the mlb position in a 4-3 defense. He's probably underrated at 4, honestly.


Quote:
4. I think by the end of Revis' career, he'll go down as the 2nd best CB ever.
That's saying a lot. I doubt it, but we'll see.

Quote:
5. Glad to see you have Lott ahead of Reed. Taking nothing away from Reed, but Lott was better. He was every bit the ballhawk Reed was plus he was a hell of a lot meaner and more of an enforcer.
That is correct.
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Old 08-01-2013, 09:31 PM    (permalink
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Being a Bucs fan that Tampa 2 D from 98 to 08 was really something to watch. It was amazing how the Ravens and Bucs were almost the same team for about a 6 year span. Bucs had Brooks, Ravens had Lewis. Ravens had Suggs/Boulware, Bucs had Rice. Bucs had Lynch, Ravens had Woodson then Reed. CB's Ravens with McAlister and Starks, Bucs Barber and Kelly.
Completely different schemes. Similar in talent level, but two totally different teams.
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Old 08-02-2013, 07:17 AM    (permalink
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Me too.


Alan Page. And no, but you could make an argument between anyone after the top 2.


You are very much sleeping on Bill George, who basically invented the mlb position in a 4-3 defense. He's probably underrated at 4, honestly.



That's saying a lot. I doubt it, but we'll see.


That is correct.
I thought Sam Huff was the first 4-3 MIKE? Didn't Landry invent the 4-3 and build it around Huff?
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Old 08-02-2013, 09:46 AM    (permalink
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George played four years before Huff, but I dunno. That's what I always read.
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Old 08-02-2013, 10:01 AM    (permalink
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George played four years before Huff, but I dunno. That's what I always read.
From my understanding, and I could be wrong, but the standard defensive front was a 5-2 until Landry created the 4-3 defense and designed it around Sam Huff. Sam Huff was the original 4-3 MIKE.

I could be wrong, but that's what I've read and seen on TV fwiw.
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