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Old 08-09-2013, 08:52 AM    (permalink
Rob S
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
Rings are not overrated. Especially in basketball where a superstar can take over games.

Baseball yes. Football...somewhat. Not basketball. Rings matter in basketball.
There is still a fuckton of luck that goes into winning a title. Look at the Heat this year.

I agree that rings matter more in basketball, but the notion that 'player x' can never be higher than 'player y' until he has the same number of rings or more is completely asinine.
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Old 08-09-2013, 08:54 AM    (permalink
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I think Lebron gets at least two more rings before he retires. I don't really see the point of the ring argument until their careers are over.
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Old 08-09-2013, 08:56 AM    (permalink
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There is still a fuckton of luck that goes into winning a title. Look at the Heat this year.

I agree that rings matter more in basketball, but the notion that 'player x' can never be higher than 'player y' until he has the same number of rings or more is completely asinine.
I agree with that. I'm just saying, rings matter. You can't tell me a guy with 1 ring is on the same level as a guy with 6 for example. It's not the end all argument but it does carry weight.

Even when we take the rings out of the conversation Kobe is more established and has accomplished more than LeBron right now. It's just completely unfair to say that LeBron is already better.

Kobe's best season was with his worst team in his career. And I think that season and what he did there was just as great if not better than anything LeBron has done.
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Old 08-09-2013, 08:56 AM    (permalink
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I do think rings can be a great tie breaker when comparing similarly valuable players. That said, MVP awards are way more important than rings (even if the voters do **** it up quite often). Much less luck involved.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:00 AM    (permalink
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I don't know how legit MVP awards are. Popularity contest awards are often incredibly misleading.

Like Karl Malone won the MVP award when he didn't deserve it.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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Kobe's best season was with his worst team in his career. And I think that season and what he did there was just as great if not better than anything LeBron has done.
Oh please. Lebron already has 5 or 6 seasons better than 05-06 Kobe.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:03 AM    (permalink
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I don't know how legit MVP awards are. Popularity contest awards are often incredibly misleading.

Like Karl Malone won the MVP award when he didn't deserve it.
I'm paraphrasing, but I remember Simmons talking about this: "I read in the newspaper 'Why can't Karl Malone win MVP?' Why can't Karl Malone win MVP!?! Because Michael Jordan is playing in the NBA. How's that for a reason?"
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:06 AM    (permalink
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I don't know how legit MVP awards are. Popularity contest awards are often incredibly misleading.

Like Karl Malone won the MVP award when he didn't deserve it.
They are far more accurate in judging a players' value than rings.....I think that is pretty obvious. Even if they **** up the MVP, it is still a much better barometer.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:10 AM    (permalink
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Yeah that makes sense except for the fact that Kobe won 2 rings without Shaq.

His #2 was Pau Gasol. Last time I checked Pau isn't 50% Dwayne Wade let alone Wade + Bosh.
The year Kobe won it with Pau as his sidekick, Pau realized he couldn't be a ***** and maned up. During those playoffs he was a different player. I thought that would've carried over, but sadly it didn't.

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I do think rings can be a great tie breaker when comparing similarly valuable players. That said, MVP awards are way more important than rings (even if the voters do **** it up quite often). Much less luck involved.
Kinda like Hibbert calling out the media on the DPOY voting.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:44 AM    (permalink
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Did I say "Bosh and Wade are better than Shaq?". Or did I say the complaint for Kobe was that he played with one other superstar during his rings while no one questions Lebron's needing to grab two superstars for his team.

Just saw Rob as well. The point I was making is you can't use the need of a star supporting player as a negative for one player and not the other. I'll edit the original post so as to reflect this. I never made a comparison between Shaq vs Old Wade + Bosh.

I do 100% agree that Shaq is easily better than Lebron's supporting cast/future supporting cast. Honestly if Shaq applied himself throughout his career he would be in the greatest conversation over both the aforementioned Kobe/Lebron debate.
One player played with the most dominant big man, and one of if not the most dominant players of all time. The other is playing with one All Star and one fringe HOFer at best, imo.

The point is you made a comparison of Kobe playing with Shaq to Lebron playing with Wade/Bosh. While I get the comparison and what you are arguing, you can't just lump all superstars in the same category and assume it's the same situation.

Implying the hypocracy of people knocking Kobe for having Shaq, but not for Lebron having Wade (the better of the 2 partners) is not only a baseless, but also pointless because EVERYONE knocks Lebron for teaming up and needing not 1, but 2 other stars to win his rings. The argument is whether Kobe or Shaq led them to the rings, whereas everyone knows Lebron led them to their rings. The 2 situations are comparable but not all that alike.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:55 AM    (permalink
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Also, from the moment he stepped on the court in his rookie year, LeBron has been THE guy. Kobne wasn't THE guy for the first half of his career.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:02 AM    (permalink
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You just hate Kobe. Your opinion on players you hate is completely irrelevant bc of the ridiculous amount of bias you carry.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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One player played with the most dominant big man, and one of if not the most dominant players of all time. The other is playing with one All Star and one fringe HOFer at best, imo.

The point is you made a comparison of Kobe playing with Shaq to Lebron playing with Wade/Bosh. While I get the comparison and what you are arguing, you can't just lump all superstars in the same category and assume it's the same situation.

Implying the hypocracy of people knocking Kobe for having Shaq, but not for Lebron having Wade (the better of the 2 partners) is not only a baseless, but also pointless because EVERYONE knocks Lebron for teaming up and needing not 1, but 2 other stars to win his rings. The argument is whether Kobe or Shaq led them to the rings, whereas everyone knows Lebron led them to their rings. The 2 situations are comparable but not all that alike.
How about the supporting cast where each has won 2 rings (Pau Gasol vs Wade + Bosh)? I highly doubt even you are going to come up with a way to spin that to somehow favor Pau. Kobe won two rings with a lesser supporting cast than the one Lebron has and yet he it is a stupid criticism of Kobe without being the same for Lebron.

Don't use silly arguments for one player and not the other. -_-
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:12 AM    (permalink
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Yeah I love how we keep ignoring how Kobe won 2 rings with Pau. Let's keep talking about Shaq as if that's relevant anymore.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:19 AM    (permalink
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Lebron is just better.....he probably has the 5 best seasons between the 2 of them. Where you place them all time is always difficult to measure before careers are over, but Kobe has never come close to reaching the highs that Lebron has consistently been able to hit.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:20 AM    (permalink
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Yeah I love how we keep ignoring how Kobe won 2 rings with Pau. Let's keep talking about Shaq as if that's relevant anymore.
Pau was the best player in the playoffs for the second ring, absolutely no question.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:23 AM    (permalink
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Lebron will undoubtedly be better when his career is over. To say he already is better is completely unfair.

And Snowflake, stop with your nonsense.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:25 AM    (permalink
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Lebron will undoubtedly be better when his career is over. To say he already is better is completely unfair.

And Snowflake, stop with your nonsense.
How is it nonsense? Did you happen to miss the playoffs that year because you were too busy sulking as the Knicks failed to make the playoffs again? Pau was dominant on D and offense, and was far more consistent than Kobe.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:26 AM    (permalink
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How about the supporting cast where each has won 2 rings (Pau Gasol vs Wade + Bosh)? I highly doubt even you are going to come up with a way to spin that to somehow favor Pau. Kobe won two rings with a lesser supporting cast than the one Lebron has and yet he it is a stupid criticism of Kobe without being the same for Lebron.

Don't use silly arguments for one player and not the other. -_-
No, that's a perfectly fine comparison. You can argue the situation and who actually led the team, but the comparison of players is at least closer.

Like I said, I couldn't care less about the Kobe-Lebron argument, but including the fact that people rag on Kobe having Shaq when Lebron has Wade/Bosh is just asinine. I just wanted to make sure no one actually thought Shaq was relevant in an argument such as this.

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Old 08-09-2013, 10:30 AM    (permalink
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The teammate debate should only really come into play when a player is clearly the #2 banana imo. Even then, I don't love it, but the fact remains that Lebron has always been the #1 offensive and defensive option for the entirety of his career. That is categorically false for Kobe.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:32 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Brodeur View Post
How is it nonsense? Did you happen to miss the playoffs that year because you were too busy sulking as the Knicks failed to make the playoffs again? Pau was dominant on D and offense, and was far more consistent than Kobe.
I can't wait until Melo leaves nut indentations on your forehead this year.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:47 AM    (permalink
iowatreat54
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Originally Posted by bigbluedefense View Post
I can't wait until Melo leaves nut indentations on your forehead this year.
Whether they are on Brody's forehead or your chin, nut indentations are still nut indentations...
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:48 AM    (permalink
bigbluedefense
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Whether they are on Brody's forehead or your chin, nut indentations are still nut indentations...
At least my star player plays through injuries.

*shots fired*
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:55 AM    (permalink
iowatreat54
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At least my star player plays through injuries.

*shots fired*
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:59 AM    (permalink
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At least my teams star player.... was the first player in Big Ten history to be either 1st or 2nd in points, assists, and rebounds in the same season. SUCK IT.

Also, Adrian Griffin no longer in the running for coach. Brett Brown, Kenny Atkinson, and Jay Larranaga are the finalists.
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