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Old 08-11-2013, 03:27 AM    (permalink
JordanTaber
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Originally Posted by TheFinisher View Post
I hope Aeneas Williams can get in one of these years. He played the same time as Deion and was a polar opposite personality, which combined with playing on a lackluster Cardinals team kept him from becoming the household name that Deion, Darrell Green and Rod Woodson were... but IMO he was right up there with being the best CB in the league. He locked guys down in the desert for a decade and was still an upper echelon CB in his twilight years with the Rams.

He retired with 55 career INTs and returned 9 of them for TDs, which is good for 4th All-Time. 8 Time Pro-Bowler and 3 Time All-Pro, he's got the credentials to get in and seeing he was a finalist the past 2 seasons it should only be a matter of time.
He was better than any of them from what I've seen.

Especially Rod Woodson, who was burned all the time. Playmaker, sure...but he was no shutdown corner, even relative to how the term is usually used.

Darrell Green could cover anyone but he was too short, and bigger receivers definitely took advantage of that.

Deion was beatable on some routes, but there were certain routes you just couldn't run on him at all.
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:29 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
Yards/carry is a terrible stat to use to evaluate running backs.
You obviously a troll but they are it shows how good vision, quickness, foot work a rb has.
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Old 08-11-2013, 03:37 AM    (permalink
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RB need numbers but they also need more then that. Just because you have big numbers in itself does not mean anything. RB rushing for 13,000 yards is not common but does make the rb necessarily special. It could just mean the player played for a long time had a great o line his whole other career and other factors. Football HOF is less concerned with stats then baseball.

True, 13K rushing is just a number and doesn't mean anything in a vacuum.
But consider that only 7 RBs in the history of the NFL have ever hit that mark, and all of them are in the HOF, except Bettis,(He will be).

Every RB who's rushed for over 12K in a career, 14 players total, is in the HOF except Edgerrin James and Bettis.

IMO to rush for over 13K in a career requires that a RB be 'special'. You can't hit that number just by collecting garbage yardage in meaningless carries.


It's much harder for a RB to hit 13K rushing when potentially 11 players are a threat to tackle him on any carry than it is for a WR to accumulate 13K career receiving yards.

13K for a RB is like 150 sacks for a pass rusher or 3 SB titles for a QB. It's one of those stats that's hard to ignore and puts a player on the short list for the HOF.
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Old 08-11-2013, 05:09 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by JordanTaber View Post
He was better than any of them from what I've seen.

Especially Rod Woodson, who was burned all the time. Playmaker, sure...but he was no shutdown corner, even relative to how the term is usually used.

Darrell Green could cover anyone but he was too short, and bigger receivers definitely took advantage of that.

Deion was beatable on some routes, but there were certain routes you just couldn't run on him at all.
Darrell Green was the fastest player of our time, and put it to use as well. I remember clearly watching him run down Eric Dickerson in a playoff game like he was standing still. I wish I could find the video...Dickerson breaks in the clear and is off to the races. You see Green come into the picture at midfield when Dickerson is at the 35, and pulls him down at the 15. He saved many a long play that way in his career. It's a luxury that so few teams ever have.

I also remember later in his career when the Redskins played the Seahawks. A reporter asked Green how fast Joey Galloway was. Green's reply was, "Well, he and Alexander Wright are the only two players who have ever forced me to run full speed." At that time Green was about 36 years old.

A couple of years ago he ran a 4.43 in the 40, on his 50th birthday. If I could have any 2 cb's on my team, he would be one of them, no question.
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Old 08-11-2013, 09:03 PM    (permalink
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Darrell Green was the fastest player of our time, and put it to use as well. I remember clearly watching him run down Eric Dickerson in a playoff game like he was standing still. I wish I could find the video...Dickerson breaks in the clear and is off to the races. You see Green come into the picture at midfield when Dickerson is at the 35, and pulls him down at the 15. He saved many a long play that way in his career. It's a luxury that so few teams ever have.
Just a brief glimpse of the Dickerson tackle at 0:30

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Old 08-21-2013, 03:36 AM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by 49ers1984 View Post
You obviously a troll but they are it shows how good vision, quickness, foot work a rb has.
It's terrible because a RB's success is so largely determined by the blocking scheme/ability to open creases/holes.

Let's see Shaun Alexander and Terrell Davis try to run in New Orleans during the time Dalton Hilliard was pounding away in the late 80s.
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Old 08-21-2013, 04:05 PM    (permalink
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Raiders punter Ray Guy and Falcons DE Claude Humphrey are the two Seniors Committee nominations for the Class of 2014.

Of the 20 candidates nominated since 2004, when the committee started picking two rather than one former player to consider, 16 have been enshrined. But Humphrey is one of the four who wasn’t, having been voted down as a senior candidate in 2009. Guy and Humphrey automatically advance to the last day of voting, where their names will be considered in a yes or no vote along with the five finalists selected by the entire Hall of Fame committee.

http://www.profootballhof.com/enshri...014-finalists/
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Old 08-21-2013, 05:37 PM    (permalink
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Raiders punter Ray Guy and Falcons DE Claude Humphrey are the two Seniors Committee nominations for the Class of 2014.

Of the 20 candidates nominated since 2004, when the committee started picking two rather than one former player to consider, 16 have been enshrined. But Humphrey is one of the four who wasnt, having been voted down as a senior candidate in 2009. Guy and Humphrey automatically advance to the last day of voting, where their names will be considered in a yes or no vote along with the five finalists selected by the entire Hall of Fame committee.

http://www.profootballhof.com/enshri...014-finalists/
We could debate whether or not Ray Guy is actually the greatest punter ever; but I think he should make the hall just because he's probably the only punter who every single football fan can name. The legend of Ray Guy is Hall of Fame worthy.
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Old 08-21-2013, 06:20 PM    (permalink
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We could debate whether or not Ray Guy is actually the greatest punter ever; but I think he should make the hall just because he's probably the only punter who every single football fan can name. The legend of Ray Guy is Hall of Fame worthy.
I would love for Ray Guy to get into the Hall of Fame. He deserves it and it's criminal that he's had to wait this long.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 08-21-2013, 10:54 PM    (permalink
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Do specialists deserve a bust in Canton??

If STers are eligible, then Steve Tasker, Devin Hester and Brian Mitchell are candidates too.

I've heard some NFL players from the 1970s really rip into the notion of a kicker/STs gunner/KR/PR being in the HOF.

I'm conflicted because there's been a shift in the recognition special teams plays in winning games and its role in fielding a complete football team.

The Giants beat the 49ers a few years ago in the NFCC because one team was knock-out on specials and the other wasn't.

If you don' think special teamers are part-time players and instead are the crucial third part of any football team, then Ray Guy and a handful of others need to be selected for Canton.
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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I was just looking at Ray Guys profile on Pro Football Reference and was wondering why such a well regarded punter who dominated his position in the 1970s was only credited with 3 first team All Pros during his entire career. At the bottom of Guys PFR page where it lists his accolades, I was curious why he wasn't selected as the AP All Pro from 1973-75 when everybody else was voting him as their number one punter for that particular season. Who could AP be possibly selecting instead as their punter?

http://www.pro-football-reference.co...G/GuyxRa20.htm

As it turns out, and after researching the All Pro teams for 1973-75 listed on PFR, there was actually nobody else being selected ahead of Guy because AP did not start naming a Punter on their All Pro teams until 1976. Guy is therefore credited with 3 first-team AP All Pros from 1976-78; but he was also the consensus All Pro from 1973-78 with 3 other organisations:

Pro Football Writers
Newspaper Enterprise Association
Pro Football Weekly

Im not sure what the story is behind AP not naming a punter on their All Pro teams until 1976 (they were naming kickers). In fact Guy ended up with a clean sweep of 1st team All Pro honours from every voting organisation for the first 6 seasons of his career.
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Old 08-22-2013, 12:58 AM    (permalink
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Do specialists deserve a bust in Canton??

If STers are eligible, then Steve Tasker, Devin Hester and Brian Mitchell are candidates too.

I've heard some NFL players from the 1970s really rip into the notion of a kicker/STs gunner/KR/PR being in the HOF.

I'm conflicted because there's been a shift in the recognition special teams plays in winning games and its role in fielding a complete football team.

The Giants beat the 49ers a few years ago in the NFCC because one team was knock-out on specials and the other wasn't.

If you don' think special teamers are part-time players and instead are the crucial third part of any football team, then Ray Guy and a handful of others need to be selected for Canton.
All I know is that I'm glad we have Andy Lee on our team as one of the NFL's finest punters. Definitely helps give an already great defensive team another advantage. I remember when the Steelers tried to claim him after his rookie deal too I think it was. Happy we matched it.
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Old 08-24-2013, 12:02 AM    (permalink
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RG3 had to wait this long? But he's SO dynamic! He can pass AND run! Defenses can't gameplan for him! He's unstoppable! There shouldn't even need to be a ballott!
There wasn't a ballot. They actually changed it to the RG3 of Fame... Everyone else's bust was transported to another broken down city to sit and rot due to the pure magnificence of his highness...
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Old 08-24-2013, 12:22 AM    (permalink
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He was better than any of them from what I've seen.

Especially Rod Woodson, who was burned all the time. Playmaker, sure...but he was no shutdown corner, even relative to how the term is usually used.

Darrell Green could cover anyone but he was too short, and bigger receivers definitely took advantage of that.

Deion was beatable on some routes, but there were certain routes you just couldn't run on him at all.

You cannot be a real person... Sure Williams deserves to get in but don't discount Green, Woodson, and Prime to do it. All four players were ridiculously top notch at their position.

Green was simply the fastest guy I've ever seen play football... It was like he was flying. Prime, you just didn't throw it his way or it was six the other way. Run it his way, sure, but still he's the PRIME example of what we dream a DB is supposed to do and that's shutdown his half of the field.

The fact I even had to make a post about the first two, the third should be self explanatory.. Woodson was simply an amazing entity wherever they lined him up at and to do it at two positions is simply ridiculous.

I agree with you on Williams though. I think he's one of the best to ever play the game and deserves to be in but there's only so much room.

AASN: Ray Guy should be in the HOF IMHO and guys like Hester, Vinatieri, etc should get props for what they've accomplished since ST's is 1/3 of the game after all.
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Old 08-24-2013, 03:06 AM    (permalink
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It's terrible because a RB's success is so largely determined by the blocking scheme/ability to open creases/holes.

Let's see Shaun Alexander and Terrell Davis try to run in New Orleans during the time Dalton Hilliard was pounding away in the late 80s.
Of course that helps but is also on the rb to find the openings and break tackles which is not easy. Bettis was a big back who relied on power then speed so he did nt get many yards per carry.
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Old 08-24-2013, 03:16 AM    (permalink
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True, 13K rushing is just a number and doesn't mean anything in a vacuum.
But consider that only 7 RBs in the history of the NFL have ever hit that mark, and all of them are in the HOF, except Bettis,(He will be).

Every RB who's rushed for over 12K in a career, 14 players total, is in the HOF except Edgerrin James and Bettis.

IMO to rush for over 13K in a career requires that a RB be 'special'. You can't hit that number just by collecting garbage yardage in meaningless carries.


It's much harder for a RB to hit 13K rushing when potentially 11 players are a threat to tackle him on any carry than it is for a WR to accumulate 13K career receiving yards.

13K for a RB is like 150 sacks for a pass rusher or 3 SB titles for a QB. It's one of those stats that's hard to ignore and puts a player on the short list for the HOF.
So only 7 have reached it so far. That does not mean if someone reaches it they were a great player it could mean they played for a long time. So are you saying if someone like Corey Dillon or Warrick Dunn had gotten 13000 yards they should be in? There is no milestone numbers in football like baseball. Bettis never lead the league in rushing yards and was only All Pro twice in his career.
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Old 08-24-2013, 07:24 AM    (permalink
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So only 7 have reached it so far. That does not mean if someone reaches it they were a great player it could mean they played for a long time. So are you saying if someone like Corey Dillon or Warrick Dunn had gotten 13000 yards they should be in? There is no milestone numbers in football like baseball. Bettis never lead the league in rushing yards and was only All Pro twice in his career.
Why do so many fans discount the value of durability in a RB??
What ends most RB's careers?? The accumulation of hits which ultimately breaks down their bodies and limits their ability to perform.

What's been one of the Steelers' biggest problems since Bettis retired?? Finding any RB who could stay healthy for an entire season.

People like to pretend numbers don't count in consideration for the HOF, but you won't see a QB in the modern era who makes it into Canton with more INTs than TD passes.
Likewise you won't see a modern era WR make the HOF who doesn't meet a minimum standard of catches, yards and TDs.

THere are no automatic numbers in football for the HOF, but you can bet HOF voters analyze every player's stats who comes up for HOF consideration.
You can't ignore Bettis' numbers at that position. The same way Curtis Martin's career stats bulldozed his way into the HOF.

It's the same reason I'm confident Kevin Greene will eventually make it into Canton. His 160 sacks, 3rd alltime, make him one of the greatest pass rushing OLBs in the history of the game.

If Julio Jones and AJ Green end their careers with stats similar to Art Monk's, they both will most likely never make the HOF,(assuming their modest career stats aren't offset by playoff excellence).

No NFL RB lucks their way into 13000 career rushing yards. It just doesn't happen, not at that position.

Yes if Corey Dillon and Warrick Dunn had rushed for 13K, they'd be HOFers.
Dillon came very close to having a HOF career as it is, so did Dunn.

All-Pro teams are fool's gold. Great players make the All-Pro team multiple times, but many don't.
Joe Montana only made All-Pro 3x. Marcus Allen, 2x.

There are going to be very few modern era RBs who make it to Canton.
Other than AD, who else looks capable of reaching the 13K threshold, or who's considered dominant enough so that his numbers don't matter?

Look at Edgerrin James, a great RB who had 4 seasons of 1500+ yards, over 12K career and 91 total career TDs(80 rushing).
Is he a HOFer?? Very close IMO.

Also I think Bettis is going to graded among a subset of RBs; the big powerback. In which case he may be the best 245+# RB to ever play the game.

When you take a step back and compare Bettis to Czonka/Riggins/Earl Campbell, he definitely belongs among that group, all of whom are HOFers.
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Old 08-24-2013, 09:35 AM    (permalink
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I think that Corey Dillon could have definitely been a Hall of Famer if his career had played out just a little bit differently. He certainly had the talent (he even has one of the NFL's all-time great games by a RB). If those Bengals teams had more talent to distract the defense, and had spent more time preserving a lead by running out the clock late in games, he probably would have walked right into The Hall. He was 30 when he finally landed on a good team, and he posted career numbers.

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Old 08-24-2013, 04:24 PM    (permalink
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When Curtis Martin got in, it opened the door for a lot of guys IMO. You no longer have to be a great runner or special player to get in as a RB. I think 13k is a pretty good number for a back to get in and even 12k is pretty good for a RB with the way they fizzle out these days and how much of a passing league the NFL has become. There's probably not even a good argument anymore for what should get in or not. I can't find the logic in it.
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Old 08-24-2013, 04:57 PM    (permalink
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I think that Corey Dillon could have definitely been a Hall of Famer if his career had played out just a little bit differently. He certainly had the talent (he even has one of the NFL's all-time great games by a RB). If those Bengals teams had more talent to distract the defense, and had spent more time preserving a lead by running out the clock late in games, he probably would have walked right into The Hall. He was 30 when he finally landed on a good team, and he posted career numbers.
Dillon isn't getting into the Hall of Fame because he played for Cincinnati and the media didn't like him. Or rather he didn't like the media. It's kind of like the Ricky Watters effect. He is another player who also deserves to be in, but because he wasn't a media darling like Hines Ward or Curtis Martin he isn't getting in.
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Old 08-25-2013, 12:49 AM    (permalink
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Why do so many fans discount the value of durability in a RB??
What ends most RB's careers?? The accumulation of hits which ultimately breaks down their bodies and limits their ability to perform.

What's been one of the Steelers' biggest problems since Bettis retired?? Finding any RB who could stay healthy for an entire season.

People like to pretend numbers don't count in consideration for the HOF, but you won't see a QB in the modern era who makes it into Canton with more INTs than TD passes.
Likewise you won't see a modern era WR make the HOF who doesn't meet a minimum standard of catches, yards and TDs.

THere are no automatic numbers in football for the HOF, but you can bet HOF voters analyze every player's stats who comes up for HOF consideration.
You can't ignore Bettis' numbers at that position. The same way Curtis Martin's career stats bulldozed his way into the HOF.

It's the same reason I'm confident Kevin Greene will eventually make it into Canton. His 160 sacks, 3rd alltime, make him one of the greatest pass rushing OLBs in the history of the game.

If Julio Jones and AJ Green end their careers with stats similar to Art Monk's, they both will most likely never make the HOF,(assuming their modest career stats aren't offset by playoff excellence).

No NFL RB lucks their way into 13000 career rushing yards. It just doesn't happen, not at that position.

Yes if Corey Dillon and Warrick Dunn had rushed for 13K, they'd be HOFers.
Dillon came very close to having a HOF career as it is, so did Dunn.

All-Pro teams are fool's gold. Great players make the All-Pro team multiple times, but many don't.
Joe Montana only made All-Pro 3x. Marcus Allen, 2x.

There are going to be very few modern era RBs who make it to Canton.
Other than AD, who else looks capable of reaching the 13K threshold, or who's considered dominant enough so that his numbers don't matter?

Look at Edgerrin James, a great RB who had 4 seasons of 1500+ yards, over 12K career and 91 total career TDs(80 rushing).
Is he a HOFer?? Very close IMO.

Also I think Bettis is going to graded among a subset of RBs; the big powerback. In which case he may be the best 245+# RB to ever play the game.

When you take a step back and compare Bettis to Czonka/Riggins/Earl Campbell, he definitely belongs among that group, all of whom are HOFers.
Durability is not a skill it is about taking care of your body and getting lucky that you do not get hurt. Why would 1300 make a difference for Dillion or Dunn they were good players not great. You can't compare Bettis to Czonka, Riggins or Campbell because they all have either Superbowl or Regular season MVP's something that Bettis does not. Your right Joe Montana only had 3 All Pro's but he had a lot of other stuff in his career that made up for that like winning so many Super Bowls and winning regular season and Super Bowl MVP's. Bettis does not have that. Of course numbers count when considering the HOF but it is only a part of it. You say it matters that Bettis is 6th all time in yards then lets put Vinny Testaverde in he is 7th all time in passing yards.

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Old 08-25-2013, 04:31 AM    (permalink
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Durability is not a skill it is about taking care of your body and getting lucky that you do not get hurt. Why would 1300 make a difference for Dillion or Dunn they were good players not great. You can't compare Bettis to Czonka, Riggins or Campbell because they all have either Superbowl or Regular season MVP's something that Bettis does not. Your right Joe Montana only had 3 All Pro's but he had a lot of other stuff in his career that made up for that like winning so many Super Bowls and winning regular season and Super Bowl MVP's. Bettis does not have that. Of course numbers count when considering the HOF but it is only a part of it. You say it matters that Bettis is 6th all time in yards then lets put Vinny Testaverde in he is 7th all time in passing yards.

Every RB who rushed for 13K is in the HOF. THere's really no way to spin that into something less significant.
It's not the same as a QB sticking around as a starter/backup for 20 years compiling stats.

Being durable is something that's partly mental and a trait physically some RBs are born with, others aren't. Keeping your body in shape doesn't make you durable.
Bo Jackson was in shape, he couldn't avoid shredding his hip socket on a fluke tackle.
If you aren't durable and can't avoid injuries, you can't play in the NFL at RB.
It's the reason why you don't see 185# starting RBs in the NFL anymore. They aren't durable; they can't take the pounding game after game and remain productive.

There may be a chance element to it, but durability is as important a trait for a RB having a chance to play long enough to compile a HOF career as is any other RB skillset.

If Corey Dillon and Warrick Dunn had 13K career yards, they would be universally considered great RBs, not merely good.
Numbers matter at RB for HOF consideration. Numbers may not be sacred like they used to be in baseball, but they're still very important.
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:37 PM    (permalink
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Every RB who rushed for 13K is in the HOF. THere's really no way to spin that into something less significant.
It's not the same as a QB sticking around as a starter/backup for 20 years compiling stats.

Being durable is something that's partly mental and a trait physically some RBs are born with, others aren't. Keeping your body in shape doesn't make you durable.
Bo Jackson was in shape, he couldn't avoid shredding his hip socket on a fluke tackle.
If you aren't durable and can't avoid injuries, you can't play in the NFL at RB.
It's the reason why you don't see 185# starting RBs in the NFL anymore. They aren't durable; they can't take the pounding game after game and remain productive.

There may be a chance element to it, but durability is as important a trait for a RB having a chance to play long enough to compile a HOF career as is any other RB skillset.

If Corey Dillon and Warrick Dunn had 13K career yards, they would be universally considered great RBs, not merely good.
Numbers matter at RB for HOF consideration. Numbers may not be sacred like they used to be in baseball, but they're still very important.
Every rb that has 13000 yards has gotten in so far that is no guarantee in the future. Do you think that the reason they are in the HOF has to do more then just a number that they were great players. HOF should be for great players who were best players in the game not players who were good who hung on a long time like Bettis. Bettis was many times in the top ten in rushing attempts so no wonder he has so many yards. What proof do you have that durability is something someone is born with?
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:46 PM    (permalink
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Thinking about three of the four coaches who made the HOF from the 80s, are Jimmy Johnson, Mike Holmgren, and Mike Shanahan in play for the Hall? I'm pretty sure I'd vote for none of them.
Maybe Jimmy Johnson but Holmgren and Shannahan success were to much of a by product of having HOF QB's.
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Old 08-25-2013, 03:59 PM    (permalink
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But in the NFL it's not the hall of great players, it's the hall of fame where a lot of just very good players wove themselves so tightly into the story of the NFL that they have and will continue to get in despite never having been really dominant or having stuck around long enough to have great careers. But you know that's what makes football different from basketball, hockey or even soccer, one really great player can rarely just take ever so the most effective and productive guys aren't always the best or most talented
Emmitt smith was never a dominant runner, but he was part of a dominant running game and had amazing longevity, even in those final years in the dessert he managed to squeeze 900+ yards out of it despite barely being able to go faster than a jog and having a crap OL. He had a special career and got in still, cause that's how the NFL does it.
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