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Old 08-22-2013, 03:14 PM    (permalink
Ness
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Originally Posted by K Train View Post
he torpedoes and whiffs but i cant really think of any time he hurt someone. Ryan clark has "clean" tackles that make players come on the field and pray...its a fine line
Oh I remember when he hurt someone. Vernon Davis during the 2007 season. Missed two games because of a sprained MCL.

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Davis was injured on one such pivotal play. He made an apparent catch at the Steelers' 10-yard line, but referee Gerald Austin ruled Davis dropped the ball as he hit the turf. After reviewing the film overnight, the 49ers made it clear they respectfully disagreed.

"I thought it was a catch," said Davis, who took a shot from safety Troy Polamalu on the play.
http://www.mercurynews.com/49ershead...nclick_check=1

Troy dived right at Vernon's legs, which caused him to somersault and "fumble" the ball.
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Oh, my bad. Didn't realize SWDC was the pinnacle of class and grace.
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Old 08-22-2013, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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I mean i figured there was cases of players getting hurt, but hes not an overall dirty or malicious player imo.

Theres a video of him at USC nearly killing a guy on a punt return (maybe fair catch?)
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Old 08-22-2013, 03:28 PM    (permalink
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Carl Nicks has a staff infection...Tampa bay has not been kind to nicks

Forgot bentley played with the saints too....weird coincidence
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Old 08-22-2013, 04:19 PM    (permalink
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I mean i figured there was cases of players getting hurt, but hes not an overall dirty or malicious player imo.

Theres a video of him at USC nearly killing a guy on a punt return (maybe fair catch?)
I don't think he's malicious either or has a reputation like say Rodney Harrison did.

I was just pointing out an example of how his tackling ways have jeopardized someone's season and/or career.
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Old 08-22-2013, 05:34 PM    (permalink
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I mean i figured there was cases of players getting hurt, but hes not an overall dirty or malicious player imo.

Theres a video of him at USC nearly killing a guy on a punt return (maybe fair catch?)
Yup, against K-State (my team), he demolished the punt returner ( I believe it was 5'7" 155 Aaron Lockett) who had already called fair catch.

This was also when the halo rule was in effect I believe.

Really cheap shot, luckily no one got hurt.
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Old 08-22-2013, 05:38 PM    (permalink
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Carl Nicks has a staff infection...Tampa bay has not been kind to nicks

Forgot bentley played with the saints too....weird coincidence
It's the MRSA form of staph, which I had several years ago. My doctor said something like 60% of the people that get it have to be hospitalized and 75% of people that get it will get it again in the next few months because the virus never leaves you, once you have it you have it forever.

I was lucky enough not to need hospitalized because I squeezed out all the infection, sanitized it like crazy and was able to rip the infected part out.

I was able to stick a 2 inch needle into my hip and was not able to feel it because it was that infected.
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Old 08-22-2013, 06:45 PM    (permalink
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I like how some people are acting like if the NFL were to try and keep players from torpedoing into ballcarrier's knees, all tacklers would be forced to take a runner's shoulder into their open chest. Come on. For one thing, no one has suggested that the lower legs are "off limits." The suggestion is that maybe it should be illegal for a defensive player to bring an offensive player to the ground by throwing his entire force into a runner's exposed knees. Swearinger didn't even try to grab Keller; he just plowed through his legs. Look at the play! Keller would still have had no yards after the catch if, instead of recklessly throwing his body low, Swearinger had hit him in the waist, grabbed cloth, and kept churning his legs, driving him backwards. Swearinger had all the momentum there, and part of form tackling is not justing hitting in a certain place, but maintaining leverage and drive until the runner has hit the ground. The fact that so many people think runners would be running wild down the field if defenders weren't allowed to go for the legs tells me there are a lot of posters here who may not have ever actually played football. Or at least, never grasped the fundamentals of tackling.

It's not about saying there cannot be contact with the head or the legs. Even with the no-headhunting rules, obviously there are helmets clacking against each other on every play. We also see frustrating calls like Kam Chancellor getting flagged for hitting Vernon Davis in the chest too hard and perfectly breaking up a pass. Frankly, we are already forced to be ok with refs making judgement calls. They're never perfect. If a player is diving and all he can reach is a running back's ankle, that's obviously not going to be a penalty. I think the kind of hit we're talking about is pretty obvious. It's a certain kind. You're talking about a defender coming in with no intent of wrapping up. That's the key. He's using his body simply as a blugeon and aiming it at one of the weakest points of the body, and I don't have a problem with the NFL saying, "That is not a legal way to bring down a ballcarrier." The league mandating it means that players will be taught other techniques. When they are taught other techniques, their coaches will have different expecations of them. Yes, the game will be played a little differently, and that's fine with me if it means having to watch fewer guys' knees explode. The game has evolved drastically from its origins, and I see no reason to insist that it can't change again. In other posts, I have noted that most rule-changes seem to benefit offensive players, and I'd like to see pass interference rules loosened up significantly. Call it a trade; defenders can't target a player's knees, and in turn they can push them around more when the ball's in the air so it's not all about that first moment they're allowed contact. I don't really buy the arguments about how they're all "trained to go low from birth (or whatever. hyperbolic)," either. Just don't buy it. Might take a season or to, but if the rule changes, it'll be stressed in camps and practices, and when a tackler is running towards a ballcarrier he'll know he has to tackle him, and not just force him to go down to avoid having his leg broken.

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Old 08-23-2013, 05:04 AM    (permalink
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And who's your team?

All it says is Connecticut. Who's your team, ESPN in Bristol?
Iím a Browns fan.

But, to be honest, I fail to see the relevance of either question. For example, Trent Richardson blew up Kurt Coleman in Week 1 of last season. Richardson received the hand-off and cut outside the hashes. Coleman got caught flat-footed and met him in a lane. He went high. Right at the numbers. Richardson lowered the boom and put him right on his backside.

You know what? If Coleman found himself in a similar situation later in the game, and Richardson was bearing down on him again while flat-footed, I wouldnít have blamed him one bit if he went low. And if that meant Colemanís helmet made contact with Richardsonís knee and sidelined our first-round pick for the entire season then, well, those are the breaks.

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Form tackling only has "theoretical merit" the ****?
Yes.

Itís a simplified explanation in a vacuum. For starters, people are overestimating the size of that window. That window isnít static. It expands and shrinks from snap-to-snap. Take the above scenario with Coleman and Richardson. Coleman doesnít have three feet of surface area available to him. The reason? Richardson lowered his head. The numbers arenít a realistic target for him.

And, sure, Iím aware of the new Richardson Rule. But it still isnít illegal for running backs to lower their head. Itís just the judgment call of the crown and the hairline of the helmet. Regardless, runners arenít upright the moment before a hit. Youíre not hitting a tackling sled.

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you seem to lack a general concept of the basic tackling techniques if you are in any way shape or form suggesting that you are somehow more likely to miss a runner by going center mass on them. Hips do not lie. A runner goes the same way his hips go. If you dive at someones waist (which, you shouldn't dive anyways) you are less likely to miss if you wrap up than if you dive at their feet or knees.
Hmm?

In that example, I describe a defender using the waist as an aiming point. But, again, that doesnít mean the runner is just compelled to quit moving. Letís take a running back and a linebacker. The running back releases past the line of scrimmage and curls back for a check-down pass. The runner turns and finds himself one-on-one with a linebacker. He starts moving toward the sideline and sticks. The linebacker cuts down on the angle. The defenderís lead arm crosses the ball carrierís midsection. He moves to wrap up around the hips. But, before he can secure the tackle, the runner plants and explodes in a different direction and the point of contact slides down and shatters the knee.

Thatís what Iím talking about. What started as a form tackle turned into a ďknee shotĒ. And Iím aware that youíre not implying the described hit should be a penalty. But a black-and-white NFL ruleÖ

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I'm guessing you didn't play much defense....
Most defenders that I know donít/didnít want to injure someone. There was a desire to hurt an opponent, of course, but thatís different. As far as Iím concerned, ďinjuringĒ holds a much stronger connotation, whereas ďhurtingĒ is seen as inflicting pain and imposing will. I havenít come across a significant amount of defenders that arenít satisfied until theyíve delivered season-ending and/or career-ending injuries to anyone in their way.

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Oh for ***** sake you are missing the goddamn point. The point is most guys don't even attempt the form tackle. A lot of DB's just try to dive at knees and take out runner that way since the fine is up high. Of course accidents and anomalies occur. I have never once advocated penalizing tackling the knees or suggested that every tackle ever should be perfect form. Accidents happen. People get hurt. It is part of playing a contact sport. But diving into someones knee has always been a part of the sport I hated.
Iím not missing the point. You (and others) want to curtail devastating knee injuries that can result from reckless tackles. Iím reluctant to agree to those changes because Iíve seen how rule changes can evolve with unintended consequence and disagree that all of these tackles are as deliberate as depicted.

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Im sure mangling someones knee isn't on their mind as THEY DIVE AT THEIR ******* KNEE.
Youíre projecting intent thatís impossible to prove. Itís quite plausible that a rookie tackler is just concerned with getting the ball carrier down and avoiding a fine. We donít know. Some of these tacklers could do a lot better. Some of these tacklers could be a lot more responsible. Iím not arguing that. But, even on the questionable tackles, the prospect of tearing ligaments or dislocating the kneecap isnít certain.

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I like how some people are acting like if the NFL were to try and keep players from torpedoing into ballcarrier's knees, all tacklers would be forced to take a runner's shoulder into their open chest. Come on. For one thing, no one has suggested that the lower legs are "off limits." The suggestion is that maybe it should be illegal for a defensive player to bring an offensive player to the ground by throwing his entire force into a runner's exposed knees. Swearinger didn't even try to grab Keller; he just plowed through his legs. Look at the play!
All right. Let me be as clear as I can be at 5:40 in the morning because I donít know if I have been in previous posts.

Swearingerís hit was an exhibit in poor form and poor judgment. Itís indefensible and there doesnít have to be a place in the game for those kind of hits. Youíre not going to get an argument from me on that specific hit.

If the NFL were to institute a rule where tacklers couldnít launch themselves at the exposed knee area of a defenseless receiver, and that was guaranteed to be the extent of it, then I wouldnít oppose that. Because thereís nothing to oppose if thatís the conclusion of the rule.

But I just donít see that happening. The slope is slipperier than people want to admit or recognize.

When a perennial Pro Bowler and eventual Hall of Famer like Gonzalez speaks to the media and blasts the NFL for failing to protect the knees, both the NFL and the NFLPA listen. Gonzalez is one of the most respected veterans in the league and his voice carries weight in all locker rooms. If more members of the NFLPA start criticizing the NFL and echoing the sentiment that the league isnít doing enough to protect their knees, then whatís next? Whatís the league going to do? Itís going to do the same thing it did with brain trauma and concussions. Itís going to attempt to distance itself from potential litigation and the landslide of unwanted expenses and negative press that comes with it. The NFL isnít in the business of jeopardizing its bottom-line. Whatís costlier than fighting a winnable court case? Fighting a court case where ďreasonableĒ preventative measures with precedent werenít taken into full consideration.

So, no. No one in this thread seems to be talking about a full ďstrike zoneĒ. But I donít believe itís ridiculous to suggest the first step makes subsequent steps easier.

Look no further than the recent crackdown on head issues for proof. The current set of rules werenít ushered in all at once. Itís been a gradual introduction. And the prevailing wisdom is that each series of changes has deteriorated the defensive game.

I brought it up earlier, but the Bostic incident is a cogent example. Forget about football a decade ago. Letís just talk about a few seasons ago. And ignore the crown of the helmet component of the hit. Imagine someone said that a receiver who caught the ball, turned upfield, and took two steps would be ruled a defenseless receiver. You would have laughed. Yet that happened. Not on the field in real-time. But in the VP of officiatingís office with all of the luxuries that rewind and slow motion afford. He watched it numerous times and still came to that conclusion.

In the end, I donít doubt that thereís going to be new legislation, but it doesnít mean that I have to like the direction.

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The fact that so many people think runners would be running wild down the field if defenders weren't allowed to go for the legs tells me there are a lot of posters here who may not have ever actually played football. Or at least, never grasped the fundamentals of tackling.
Running wild is a mischaracterization. I believe that additional rules (such as a clear-cut strike zone) could create a moment of hesitation in defenders in certain circumstances and leave runners with an opening to gain an extra yard or two in most situations. That doesnít minimize the value of those yards in the scheme of field position though.
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:42 AM    (permalink
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A) Iím a Browns fan.

B) In the end, I donít doubt that thereís going to be new legislation, but it doesnít mean that I have to like the direction.

I believe that additional rules (such as a clear-cut strike zone) could create a moment of hesitation in defenders in certain circumstances C) and (could) leave runners with an opening to gain an extra yard or two in most situations.
A) That explains all the pent-up anger & frustration :)

B) You not liking the safer rules, or us not liking ACL's get blown up and careers ended, I'll err on the side of caution. There will still be plenty of other injuries, for those who seem to enjoy those.

C) It's not easy to run. I see very few open spaces, running lanes. Maybe that's just my crappy Packers OL, but it's tough on there.

D) I think every TE/receiver/RB we have heard comment about these things has said they'd for sure rather be hit in the head than in the knee.
I think the only reason the NFL has gotten so strict with the head stuff is of course the $ lawsuits. They are trying to protect their $, nothing more. Their care for players health hasn't changed, just their focus on lawsuits.

E) I'd like to see studies, what would happen, if players helmets were old-school leather. Would people still use their helmets as weapons? I suspect they'd naturally not, at least most people.... this might force them to learn to tackle with proper form. And keep their eyes up instead of diving face down, eyes on the grass, crown of helmet forward.

The wicked hits to the head on DeSean Jackson, Mohammad Massaquoi, and Anquan Boldin before that.... all those guys were hurt, but they didn't have ACL, MCL, PCL's blown up and career ended.

Keller, Shipley, Mughelli, Culpepper, Carson Palmer off the top of my head, they were/will be never the same afterwards and Shipley & Ovie lost their jobs as a result.
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Old 08-23-2013, 07:45 AM    (permalink
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Jackson got hit in the chest, his face mask made contact with Robinsons helmet.
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Old 08-23-2013, 08:49 AM    (permalink
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A) That explains all the pent-up anger & frustration :)

B) You not liking the safer rules, or us not liking ACL's get blown up and careers ended, I'll err on the side of caution. There will still be plenty of other injuries, for those who seem to enjoy those.

C) It's not easy to run. I see very few open spaces, running lanes. Maybe that's just my crappy Packers OL, but it's tough on there.

D) I think every TE/receiver/RB we have heard comment about these things has said they'd for sure rather be hit in the head than in the knee.
I think the only reason the NFL has gotten so strict with the head stuff is of course the $ lawsuits. They are trying to protect their $, nothing more. Their care for players health hasn't changed, just their focus on lawsuits.

E) I'd like to see studies, what would happen, if players helmets were old-school leather. Would people still use their helmets as weapons? I suspect they'd naturally not, at least most people.... this might force them to learn to tackle with proper form. And keep their eyes up instead of diving face down, eyes on the grass, crown of helmet forward.

The wicked hits to the head on DeSean Jackson, Mohammad Massaquoi, and Anquan Boldin before that.... all those guys were hurt, but they didn't have ACL, MCL, PCL's blown up and career ended.

Keller, Shipley, Mughelli, Culpepper, Carson Palmer off the top of my head, they were/will be never the same afterwards and Shipley & Ovie lost their jobs as a result.
The major difference between ACL injuries and head injuries is that head injuries have a far more long lasting effect. Most players and fans only see the short term. They don't care if their favourite player ends up with severe mental disabilities later in life as long as his knee is in good shape during his career. If a football player blows out his knee and can't play football anymore then it is a devestating blow for him, but there is life after football.

If you can't tie your own shoelaces due to severe brain trauma after countless hits to the head then there is nothing after football for you, but hey, if you helped your team win a Superbowl then who cares? Right???

The NFL is rightfully cracking down on violent hits to the head. There is imperical evidence to support brain trauma caused by these. Knee injuries are horrible, but they aren't even a career killer anymore. Yes in an ideal world they wouldn't happen but it's silly to think they can be eradicated.

I am definitely not a fan of guys diving low, but what happens if there is 1 minute left in the Superbowl and it's Adrian Peterson against a CB. You think that guy is going to go for a form tackle or just do whatever the hell it takes to take Peterson down?
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:01 AM    (permalink
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Regarding leather helmets or no helmets, it's important to realize that modern helmets weren't designed to prevent concussions. They were designed to prevent deadly skull fractures (particularly in the amateur ranks), and they've been very effective in that regard.

What we need is new technology, not old technology.
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Old 08-23-2013, 09:06 AM    (permalink
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We need soft helmets with a hard inner shell, with gell and air foam cushion on the inside.
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Old 08-23-2013, 12:37 PM    (permalink
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If Cudders thinks form tackling is a myth, Im just going to assume he has never actually watched football.
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Old 08-23-2013, 03:05 PM    (permalink
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I'll just mention as well that most of the research I've read regarding degenerative brain diseases related to concussions find that the symptoms are the results of many impacts of varying severity; it's not like there's a line somewhere where this concussion is going to add to the aggregate damage but this smaller impact won't. It all does. Whereas, a knee ligament is basically torn or it isn't. The knee injuries should be easier to prevent.

Also, why can't bigger, tougher players just benefit from their natural advantage? Why do we have to allow smaller players who don't want to take a blow take them down in a way that can and has ended runners' careers? Just don't make it a "contact" rule; let the refs flag players they see "diving at the knees." It's really pretty obvious when it happens. It's when the runner is running towards the defender and the defender doesn't want to hit him full-on. And it doesn't happen as often as some people are implying. I've been watching for it lately as I watch the preseason games on Preseason Live, and implementing a rule that discouraged defenders from targeting knees wouldn't have a huge impact on the game. It just tells them not to leave their feet as they're going in for the tackle; target the midsection, wrap up and drive. Much, much less of an impact than the headhunting rules have.

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Old 08-24-2013, 07:18 PM    (permalink
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Any injuries tonight? For us Stevie Brown. Looks like a knee injury couldn't put weight on it. So that can be potentially bad news.
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Old 08-25-2013, 12:40 AM    (permalink
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http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-...h-ankle-injury

Broken leg for Jonathan Cooper :(
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Old 08-25-2013, 12:43 AM    (permalink
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Any injuries tonight? For us Stevie Brown. Looks like a knee injury couldn't put weight on it. So that can be potentially bad news.
Non contact injury, too. Those are always scary.

And sad for Jonathan Cooper. How was he looking prior to the injury?
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Old 08-25-2013, 08:05 AM    (permalink
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Terrible.

Cardinals first round pick LG Jonathan Cooper suffered a fractured left leg in Saturday night's preseason game.

It's a massive downgrade to an already weak offensive line and means that the Cardinals will be forced to start Chilo Rachal or move one of Levi Brown or Bobby Massie to left guard. Cooper was the seventh overall pick in April's draft.

Source: Darren Urban on Twitter


How's the health of the Niners Iupati, Davis, Staley?
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Old 08-25-2013, 08:36 AM    (permalink
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How's the health of the Niners Iupati, Davis, Staley?
better than crabtree omg so lucky! injuriezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wahhhhhh

no need to mention their starting QB went down in the midst of chasing the playoffs last year. they happened to have a good backup but if rodgers went down thatd be worth at least three new threads and 50 whiney posts from you.
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Orton will never be in the same class as the Drew Brees or the Peyton Mannings or the Tom Bradys of the world. Kevin Kolb has the potential to be that kind of player.
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:02 AM    (permalink
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Non contact injury, too. Those are always scary.

And sad for Jonathan Cooper. How was he looking prior to the injury?
He is our play maker. Losing him hurts because he has a knack for getting ints and making plays. So I expect that knee injury was an ACL. That hurts us. What's the news on the Sanchize?
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:06 AM    (permalink
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better than crabtree omg so lucky! injuriezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz wahhhhhh

no need to mention their starting QB went down in the midst of chasing the playoffs last year. they happened to have a good backup but if rodgers went down thatd be worth at least three new threads and 50 whiney posts from you.
Oh yeah, Rodgers=Alex Smith!
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:11 AM    (permalink
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Oh yeah, Rodgers=Alex Smith!
Any of the Packer linemen that got hurt half as good as Staley, Iupati, or Davis?

It works both ways.

Exclamation point added for emphasis.
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Old 08-25-2013, 10:35 AM    (permalink
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Any of the Packer linemen that got hurt half as good as Staley, Iupati, or Davis?

It works both ways.

Exclamation point added for emphasis.
I'm not saying they are. I don't even think Bulaga is as big a miss as people are making it out to be. He's an average offensive lineman, however, it was still a loss. Alex Smith going down made the 49ers better, I don't see why any fan would have a reason to moan about that.
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Old 08-25-2013, 11:17 AM    (permalink
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I'm not saying they are. I don't even think Bulaga is as big a miss as people are making it out to be. He's an average offensive lineman, however, it was still a loss. Alex Smith going down made the 49ers better, I don't see why any fan would have a reason to moan about that.
I don't get it either. Alex Smith getting hurt was one of the best things to happen to that franchise in awhile. They exploded through the glass ceiling that Alex Smith had placed on that team, and had the best season that they've had in 20 years.
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