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Old 08-25-2013, 02:54 PM    (permalink
descendency
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Originally Posted by princefielder28 View Post
I don't buy what that "scout" is saying
He and his coach has basically admitted the same thing.

I'm not too worried about it. Worst case scenario is that the team picking #1 trades his rites to another team for a huge haul, maybe even a quarterback who can actually play.
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Old 08-25-2013, 04:55 PM    (permalink
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Eh, over these past two seasons Clowney has taken plays off and has come out earlier than you'd want to see. During fall practice, he got injured and tried to milk it a little bit so he wouldn't have to stand out in the extremely hot weather.

That being said, he's not lazy. All you have to do is look at his development, physical and mental. He's put on nearly forty pounds, and he may be actually be faster than he was before. His pass rush is much improved, relying much on less on pure speed or strength but now utilizing real technique to beat blockers. He watches a lot of tape and is very adept at quickly finding out his blockers weaknesses and making sure he's prepared to exploit them. Clowney came out of high school touted as the rare player who could jump straight into the pros, yet he clearly hasn't coasted on expectations and pure physical ability. He is never going to be your cliche gym rat, the guy who works harder than everyone else. That being said, he also doesn't really work any less than anyone else either. Come draft day, no scout is going to be moving him down the big board because of supposed work ethic concerns.
Clowney was around 250# when he entered SC, so his weight gain is closer to 20-25# than 40#.

Still a lazy player doesn't get bigger/stronger/faster in three years without working their butt off.

Clowney plays hard and has an outstanding motor.
Questions about his work ethic are minor IMO at best.

I still think he ends up at LB if he's drafted by a 34 team.
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Old 08-25-2013, 06:18 PM    (permalink
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The New York Time's piece about him in today's Sunday paper was a really interesting read. They talked about some of the things that schools tried to do to recruit him. Apparently Colorado sent him a box of fake money with Ralphie the Buffalo on the dollar bills instead of a president. A coach at Texas Tech asked him to visit the school and said he didn't care if he went there he just wanted to get Tech's profile up by getting Clowney to visit. When Nick Saban recruited him he requested to play basketball with Saban because he heard that the coach plays ball to work out.

The quotes from his parents in the story are interesting and do a good job of painting a picture of where Clowney is from and what his family is like. There's also some pretty funny stories about him playing football in high school. He says the last time he went out and wasn't recognized was his junior year of high school.

I don't know if there are any character concerns but the author of the story quoted Gill Brandt as saying the only way he doesn't go number one overall is because of character concerns, after reading what the scout allegedly said I wonder if Brandt was hinting at something.
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Old 08-25-2013, 07:12 PM    (permalink
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The New York Time's piece about him in today's Sunday paper was a really interesting read. They talked about some of the things that schools tried to do to recruit him. Apparently Colorado sent him a box of fake money with Ralphie the Buffalo on the dollar bills instead of a president. A coach at Texas Tech asked him to visit the school and said he didn't care if he went there he just wanted to get Tech's profile up by getting Clowney to visit. When Nick Saban recruited him he requested to play basketball with Saban because he heard that the coach plays ball to work out.

The quotes from his parents in the story are interesting and do a good job of painting a picture of where Clowney is from and what his family is like. There's also some pretty funny stories about him playing football in high school. He says the last time he went out and wasn't recognized was his junior year of high school.

I don't know if there are any character concerns but the author of the story quoted Gill Brandt as saying the only way he doesn't go number one overall is because of character concerns, after reading what the scout allegedly said I wonder if Brandt was hinting at something.
You're reading too much into that bit. He was simpy saying that given Clowney's unrivaled combination of athleticism, size, technique and production, the only possible thing that would stop him from going number one would be off-the-field issues. He wasn't saying that there actually are any such issues.

Overall I think its going to be hilarious if people start criticizing Clowney for his work ethic. But I guess the people have to find something to critique.
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Old 08-25-2013, 07:48 PM    (permalink
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It would be a shame for Clowney to turn into Mario Williams 2.0
You mean someone who averages 11.5 sacks (per 16 games) and is a good run defender? Yeah, that would just be awful.
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Old 08-26-2013, 08:48 AM    (permalink
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I'm not sure I'd want Mario Williams for the investment he's required during his career. Good player, but are the Texans and Bills happy with the return on their investment? I'm not saying Clowney will be Williams 2.0, but when you invest a #1 overall pick or a $100 mill contract, you want a franchise changer.
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Old 08-26-2013, 10:40 AM    (permalink
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You mean someone who averages 11.5 sacks (per 16 games) and is a good run defender? Yeah, that would just be awful.
Hasn't hit 11.5 sacks in any of his last 4 years so there is that.

I think Clowney will be somewhere between DeMarcus Ware and Lawrence Taylor. maybe I'm being overly optimistic.
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Old 08-26-2013, 11:58 AM    (permalink
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You mean someone who averages 11.5 sacks (per 16 games) and is a good run defender? Yeah, that would just be awful.
If I'm taking someone #1 overall, I want it to be someone who can turn around my franchise. Someone that you can say, "With that player on a team, they are always a threat to go deep in the playoffs no matter who else is on the team."

You don't say that about Mario Williams. You can't ay that about his teams even getting to the playoffs. You can't even say that about Demarcus Ware.

QBs win games for you. They get you to the playoffs or they can keep you out of the playoffs. It is a lack of QB that leads to more teams picking number 1 than pretty much all other positions combined. QBs make or break franchises. Mario Williams does not.
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Old 08-26-2013, 01:12 PM    (permalink
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[quote=jrdrylie;3352674]The best defensive end in the league is worthless without a franchise QB. One of the best defensive ends ever (Reggie White) didn't win a Super Bowl until his 12th season in the league. In his 8 years with the Eagles, they won the division once.
[\QUOTE]


As a counter-argument, the Packers NEVER win that Super Bowl without Reggie White. They never even get to it and probably don't sniff it.

But yes, if Teddy grades out as an elite QB prospect he will almost certainly go ahead of Clowney.

The best chance for Clowney to go #1 is if he ranks out as heads and toes the best prospect and there are a few QBs ranked in a similar range, in which case the #1 team (ie.. an Oakland or Jacksonville who needs a QB) trades for a massive haul of draft picks to a team in the 5-10 draft range with a legit QB (think a team like the Colts or Lions or Saints.)

Remember that trade the Falcons made to get Julio? You have to imagine a team with a franchise QB and a terrible defense would give up even more to get Clowney and a team like Oakland, who is full of holes, would be insane to pass that up.
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Old 08-29-2013, 07:18 PM    (permalink
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Overall I think its going to be hilarious if people start criticizing Clowney for his work ethic. But I guess the people have to find something to critique.
The guys on ESPN right now are going after Clowney big time for his effort in this game.
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Old 08-30-2013, 12:23 AM    (permalink
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He took plays off tonight and he's poorly conditioned. I don't know if he's lazy or not, but I'm certainly not dismissing the scouts who said he is.
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Old 08-30-2013, 12:35 AM    (permalink
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After seeing tonight's game, I think Clowney is being hyped a little because of his measurables and his HIT in the Michigan game last year.

I don't think he's really much different a prospect than Mario Williams or Julius Peppers.

Elite NFL prospect but a not a clear cut 1/1 or someone who's going to consistently dominate at the next level.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:35 AM    (permalink
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Walterfootball (senior writer Charlie Cambell) has "sources" (which he identifies as scouts) saying that the Clowney situation at South Carolina is the same kind of deal as it was for Mario Williams at NC State.



It could be teams already trying to get his stock down (to make it cheaper to trade to #1), Spurrier trying to get him to work harder, or a legitimate concern.

It would be a shame for Clowney to turn into Mario Williams 2.0
I've never put any stock into what Walter Football says, but...after today's game...I can't help but wonder.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:37 AM    (permalink
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Eh, over these past two seasons Clowney has taken plays off and has come out earlier than you'd want to see. During fall practice, he got injured and tried to milk it a little bit so he wouldn't have to stand out in the extremely hot weather.

That being said, he's not lazy.
I...um...what?
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:43 AM    (permalink
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I'm not sure I'd want Mario Williams for the investment he's required during his career. Good player, but are the Texans and Bills happy with the return on their investment? I'm not saying Clowney will be Williams 2.0, but when you invest a #1 overall pick or a $100 mill contract, you want a franchise changer.
And a guy who brings it on every play, rather than someone (like Peppers and Mario) who coasts on reputation while making just enough plays to keep the hype alive.
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:13 PM    (permalink
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I...um...what?


Posts usually do look confusing when you cut off over half of the argument.

As for last night's game, I think a lot of people are revealing themselves to have not actually watched that much of Clowney over the past two years. When I made this post back in April, I got no responses, and the Clowney hype train rolled on;

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Conditioning- Admittedly, this one is harder to gauge because of the extra talent that SC has on the defensive line. But what you can tell is that despite him being easily the best defensive player in the country, he misses a somewhat noticeable amount of snaps. Like I said, South Carolina has had Melvin Ingram, Devin Taylor, Chaz Sutton, etc. all at the defensive end position which makes giving Clowney a breather make more sense. And we also know he's not being taken out for particular scenarios, such as obvious run downs. Nonetheless, from what I've seen (literally every single game he's played), he misses a hair too many snaps to not arouse at least some questions. A completely fixable problem if it is one though, not something that should affect his stock.
Yet now after this game, you have numerous posters saying he's let the hype get to his head and is coasting, ignoring the fact that he's always played this way. More amusingly, people needed Todd McShay and ESPN to even realize this fact at all.

The fact is, last night was the exact same Clowney we've always seen. What most people seem to be ignoring is despite the missed plays and ones taken off, he generated consistent pressure. Seeing some people downgrade his stock after last night's game is hilarious, but of course those people will probably then be re-anointing him after say Georgia.
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:38 PM    (permalink
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Well I'm 'some people' and still think Clowney is an elite prospect. However he doesn't bring it on every snap the way someone of his talent level of pro potential should.

I don't like noticing a player NOT playing hard, whether it's a guaranteed top 5 pick, or an UDFA.

Ndamukong Suh played at a different level of intensity at Nebraska.
So did Nick Fairley at Auburn and even he didn't bring it on every play.

Not saying Clowney is coasting, but the effort is not there with the consistency I'd like from a guy considered to be the top talent in the upcoming draft.

Is Clowney good enough to only bring it on one of every three plays?? Is that enough effort to be a dominant pro?? I don't think so.

I hope Clowney suffered from lack of motivation against UNC and he steps it up for a team he considers a more worthy opponent.

If I had not known who Clowney was in that UNC game, there's no way I would have thought he was considered so highly by draft analysts and football fans.

There's a difference between being a generational player and a generational talent.

His physical talent is obvious. But as a player Clowney has a ton to improve upon in order to come close to reaching his unlimited potential.

I still see more Julius Peppers in Clowney than anyone. I don't think he's going to be someone who distorts the game at the pro level like truly great players are able to do.

I'll wait and see.
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:51 PM    (permalink
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And a guy who brings it on every play, rather than someone (like Peppers and Mario) who coasts on reputation while making just enough plays to keep the hype alive.
Clowney doesn't bring it every play...
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Brilliant letting one of Scott Pioli's henchmen have his own team to ruin.  One of the premier GM jobs in the NFL and it gets handed to a stupid **** who makes three facepalm moves for every good one.  Awesome.  Just like handing a new Mercedes to a 16 year old girl who's already been in three wrecks. 
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Old 08-30-2013, 01:57 PM    (permalink
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never mind.

/delete post
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:30 PM    (permalink
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A few things to keep in mind when evaluating yesterday's game.

-USC was up 17-0 by the end of the 1st quarter
-It was quite hot and humid
-USC has a competitive opponent next week

I can see why Clowney may not have felt all that compelled to go all out the whole game.
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Old 08-30-2013, 02:32 PM    (permalink
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Originally Posted by Halsey View Post
A few things to keep in mind about yesterday's game when evaluating yesterday's game.

-USC was up 17-0 by the end of the 1st quarter
-It was quite hot and humid
-USC has a competitive opponent next week

I can see why Clowney may not have felt all that compelled to go all out the whole game.
Not justifying it as an excuse, but I can say that that may have been the hottest game (or at least tailgate) that I've ever been to.
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Old 08-31-2013, 03:18 AM    (permalink
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Well I'm 'some people' and still think Clowney is an elite prospect. However he doesn't bring it on every snap the way someone of his talent level of pro potential should.

I don't like noticing a player NOT playing hard, whether it's a guaranteed top 5 pick, or an UDFA.

Ndamukong Suh played at a different level of intensity at Nebraska.
So did Nick Fairley at Auburn and even he didn't bring it on every play.

Not saying Clowney is coasting, but the effort is not there with the consistency I'd like from a guy considered to be the top talent in the upcoming draft.

Is Clowney good enough to only bring it on one of every three plays?? Is that enough effort to be a dominant pro?? I don't think so.

I hope Clowney suffered from lack of motivation against UNC and he steps it up for a team he considers a more worthy opponent.

If I had not known who Clowney was in that UNC game, there's no way I would have thought he was considered so highly by draft analysts and football fans.

There's a difference between being a generational player and a generational talent.

His physical talent is obvious. But as a player Clowney has a ton to improve upon in order to come close to reaching his unlimited potential.

I still see more Julius Peppers in Clowney than anyone. I don't think he's going to be someone who distorts the game at the pro level like truly great players are able to do.

I'll wait and see.
Oh no, not only Julius Peppers!
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Old 08-31-2013, 07:47 AM    (permalink
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Oh no, not only Julius Peppers!
Julius Peppers rightly or wrongly is viewed as an underachiever throughout his pro career.

With his tools and measurables, you thought he was going to be a perennial All-Pro.
Peppers is a good player, he's not a great one. I don't know if he's ever been consistently great, season to season.

He won't sniff Canton either.

When I listen to the discussion about Clowney, people are expecting GREATNESS, not just 'good'.

Every team needs good players. Nothing wrong with being a good player.
There aren't enough truly good players on most rosters in the NFL.

Right now Clowney looks like a very physically gifted, good football player. However the NFL game is a different animal where it's all about schemes and matchups. I can't say definitively Clowney won't be great as a pro.

But I do know he's not a great college player yet.
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Old 08-31-2013, 08:40 AM    (permalink
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I think that we're somewhat spoiled because so many of us remember a time when Reggie White and Bruce Smith were both playing at a god-like level.
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Old 08-31-2013, 09:46 AM    (permalink
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But I do know he's not a great college player yet.
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